#1
Hi everyone

As the title says I've been playing guitar for the best part of 7 years and here's where I'm at:

- All minor and major chords learnt and can switch between almost perfectly
- The pentatonic and minor blues and Ionian scales learnt (thats it)
- Learnt the main riffs to songs like enter sandman, sad but true and a few others (but not the whole songs)

Apart from that I don't seem to be getting any further I try learning guitar solo's and new songs with tabs but I just cannot get it to sound right and just find it TOO DIFFICULT, I was having lessons during 6th form (In first year of University) but since 6th form finished I haven't had any, I learnt a few good bits during that time but I never really got taught how to practice and more importantly WHAT to practice??

Can anyone offer some useful advice on HOW I should approach learning and practicing ?? It's really getting me down because after nearly 8 years now I should be alot better


Equipment:
LAG Arkane
Stagg E300
Stagg P300 (Bass)
Herrald HL44 (Acoustic)
#2
Hows your improvisation?
╘MESHUG╦G╗AH





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#3
Have tried getting creative and making your own song/riffs/licks? Scales are no good if you don't try to get creative with them. Try learning some new scales, and try getting some new sounds by getting deeper into modes. As for the soloing; It may take a while for you to get it right. You need to listen closely and play slow. Eventually you'll gain speed and you'll have the solo down. You should also try learning some techniques like tapping, sweeping, sequencing, etc. If already know some, then clean them up and sharpen your skills. Finish learning your songs. I recommend the rhythm guitar for "Jump In The Fire" by Metallica. Its got a real nice groove to it.
Trust me, I'm a Jedi.

Quote by Minkaro
You must control your use of the force, young Trizek.
Last edited by Trizek at Feb 14, 2012,
#4
what i do is pick a song i like regardless of difficulty,learn the main riff the beggining ,then end. but play around with the different parts dont imediatley go and try to play along to the whole song or you will blow
#5
The most important question you asked is "How do I practice?". That's a question that can never be asked frequently enough. It's amazing how many people take the mechanics of practicing for granted.

Practice is not picking up a guitar, looking over a riff, and then taking your best stab at it. Practice is slowing down and looking at each individual component of playing that passage separately, then engraving the mechanics of each motion into muscle memory, then gradually speeding up the tempo until you're satisfied with the sound.

How do you practice?

-The first step is to slow down the tempo to the point that you are not struggling with plying the passage.
-The next step is to learn the mechanics of fretting the notes, picking the proper strings, and muting the rest.
-The final step is to gradually increase the tempo to the point that you are satisfied with your progress.

The question of what to practice is answered very easily with this question: what do you want to play? What frustrates you for not being able to play? Pick those songs or passages. That's what will give you the most satisfaction.
#6
Quote by Trizek
Have tried getting creative and making your own song/riffs/licks? Scales are no good if you don't try to get creative with them. Try learning some new scales, and try getting some new sounds by getting deeper into modes. As for the soloing; It may take a while for you to get it right. You need to listen closely and play slow. Eventually you'll gain speed and you'll have the solo down. You should also try learning some techniques like tapping, sweeping, sequencing, etc. If already know some, then clean them up and sharpen your skills. Finish learning your songs. I recommend the rhythm guitar for "Jump In The Fire" by Metallica. Its got a real nice groove to it.


TS, don't follow this advice. I get sick of people thinking this is what you should do, and I get sick of repeating this.

Learning a new scale will not suddenly give you a new sound. You should learn the intervals. Scales will all sound the SAME. By that I mean, every major scale will sound MAJOR, every minor scale will sound MINOR. Why? Because of the intervals. They are all based on a set of intervals.

Trizek, you have no clue about modes truely. Once you modulate music in a mode, you are actually restricting yourself greatly. Why? To get a modal "sound" you have to use chord vamps. Modes are all about the harmony. You are thinking "Yeah, who cares, I'll just play my pentatonic scale and some other scales I learnt." That is not going to work. You are going to clash and bash with those chords like a circus. You'll have to plan every move so it fits with the chords.

Don't bother TS with modes. And to fix your OP. You are not playing an IONIAN scale! It's major. You can play C "Ionian" all day, but until you get the right chord vamp, it's just C major. Ionian and Major are way more different then you think TS. Same with Aeolian and minor. Only our modern day scales are based on the Ionian and Aeolian modes. And that's just loosely. We just toke the notes from those really.

Now to address your issue. Learn to play some songs and stop being lazy. Blunt yes, true, also yes. If you are playing live, do you think people will want to hear a few riffs from a thousand songs, or just one full song? It's going to be one full song. You got yourself into a horrible habit. I'd only recommend that for Ear Training, and even then I would say to later on sit down and finish transcribing it!

Again don't follow Trizek's advice on a new technique. Every one that just starts playing guitar says this, I do not get why. Are you going to be sweeping if you don't know arpeggios. No. Are you going to be tapping if you don't know your fretboard and the notes? It's counter-productive till you learn about how to form chords. You can just guess where to hit, but that's the lazy way. You should learn what the intervals sound like so you have complete control over what you want to do. Learning shapes only gets you stuck in a shape. Tis true too. The majority of guitarists are stuck in that basic pentatonic shape.

Summary: Learn songs, notes on the fretboard, and intervals.

Cheers,
Xter
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#7
Quote by apple_head

- Learnt the main riffs to songs like enter sandman, sad but true and a few others (but not the whole songs)

Man, you really need to learn entire songs, be it All The Small Things or Technical Difficulties. This is in my opinion what helps the most in making you creative. If you learn how others make songs, like how they actually are played, then you start to analyze it whether or not you know it, you are taught new techniques as well when you are learning a difficult song, probably a technique you wouldn't have figured out by yourself. Once you know all these new songs and techniques, it'll come natural to you to start playing around with techniques you know, and using a song structure from a song you like, but you change it up with your own ideas that you feel would sound great, and if you keep doing this eventually you'll be writing new riffs, licks and songs almost effortlessly, you just need some basic knowledge of how it's done, and that cannot be taught by looking up 5 new scales online or learning the enter sandman riff.
#8
Quote by Xter
TS, don't follow this advice. I get sick of people thinking this is what you should do, and I get sick of repeating this.

Learning a new scale will not suddenly give you a new sound. You should learn the intervals. Scales will all sound the SAME. By that I mean, every major scale will sound MAJOR, every minor scale will sound MINOR. Why? Because of the intervals. They are all based on a set of intervals.

Trizek, you have no clue about modes truely. Once you modulate music in a mode, you are actually restricting yourself greatly. Why? To get a modal "sound" you have to use chord vamps. Modes are all about the harmony. You are thinking "Yeah, who cares, I'll just play my pentatonic scale and some other scales I learnt." That is not going to work. You are going to clash and bash with those chords like a circus. You'll have to plan every move so it fits with the chords.

Again don't follow Trizek's advice on a new technique. Every one that just starts playing guitar says this, I do not get why. Are you going to be sweeping if you don't know arpeggios. No. Are you going to be tapping if you don't know your fretboard and the notes? It's counter-productive till you learn about how to form chords. You can just guess where to hit, but that's the lazy way. You should learn what the intervals sound like so you have complete control over what you want to do. Learning shapes only gets you stuck in a shape. Tis true too. The majority of guitarists are stuck in that basic pentatonic shape.

Summary: Learn songs, notes on the fretboard, and intervals.

Cheers,
Xter

Slow down.

I only said that stuff because the guy has been playing for seven years. So I assumed that he already knew his chord theory, arpeggios, and had his notes and intervals in his head(Next time I wont). Please don't take me for a fool. I don't play all willy nilly. I know what modes are. Yes they are restrictiong if you overuse them and rely on them all them time. But there is nothing wrong with throwing them in every now and then to mix things up and be creative. It's common sense to know that a new scale wont give you a new sound. But its something new to learn that you can play around with so you can make your own new sound.
Trust me, I'm a Jedi.

Quote by Minkaro
You must control your use of the force, young Trizek.
Last edited by Trizek at Feb 14, 2012,
#9
There's many ways you can improve from here and you just have to find one that suits you the best right now. One question that comes to my mind that could help is.. What do you want to be good at right now? Do you want to play covers, your own songs, just jam or what? The way to get out of a rut (which I'd guess you're going through right now) is to go towards your goal from a new direction (at least it has been for me.).

Now, probably your goal is to just be able to play well so there's too much to learn and it starts to seem impossible and achieving anything is harder than ever. But you just have to break it down: Scales, chords, technique, theory, songs etc etc. and then break those down to Scales: minor/major/harmonic minor ... Chords: triads/extended chords/barres... start planning how to get better at any of them, going through 2 new chords for five minutes in the morning should be enough to be able to come back to them in your mind during work. And maybe if you include some slow picking exercises for 5 minutes with 100% attention on the right hand you'll solve a couple of future problems. Just work smart.

For what to practice, that is a difficult question but I'd guess that you've been trying to think of a song or a piece, but can't motivate yourself enough push through any? A good teacher could help you really well with this one, but my advice on this one will be limited.. Maybe get some guitar/violin/saxophone/flute etc. sheet music from the library? Maybe some classical or some jazz? If this sounds too frustrating or boring don't do it, but it would really teach you a lot. Anyway I would just try to increase my repertoire with small songs until I'd find a song I actually want to learn that isn't too hard.

Also, make your practice schedule different every time you practice. It's very easy when you have the things you need to learn written out.
#10
dont mean to sound dickish... but that list you put out there is something someone should have done in the first 3-6 months of playing the guitar. What have you been doing these last 7 years? Do you practice at all, do you really enjoy guitar?

Maybe you are just unmotivated or undisciplined, but if thats as far as you have gotten in 7 years, you know why your that bad. You must play an hour a month for progress that slow. IDK man, when i started learning guitar I couldn't put it down, I think maybe you need inspiration.

PS. Xter is right, modes are worthless and anyone who learns them on guitar is a moron. They have no place in modern music as modern music is based in all major/minor scales, they just have a fancy name.
#11
I feel where the OP is coming from as Im sorta in the same boat. Ive been "playing" for about 3.5 years and its a hard road to go. As much as I want to be decent at guitar, I just cant get it. Im far better than when I started, but nowhere close to where Id like to be.

Even improving pentatonics is weak and too rigid. Its sorta like learning math; some get it while others struggle despite homework, tutoring etc.
#13
Quote by Trizek
Slow down.

I only said that stuff because the guy has been playing for seven years. So I assumed that he already knew his chord theory, arpeggios, and had his notes and intervals in his head(Next time I wont). Please don't take me for a fool. I don't play all willy nilly. I know what modes are. Yes they are restrictiong if you overuse them and rely on them all them time. But there is nothing wrong with throwing them in every now and then to mix things up and be creative. It's common sense to know that a new scale wont give you a new sound. But its something new to learn that you can play around with so you can make your own new sound.


No I can tell you truely have no clue about modes. They are restricting because they limit every move you can do. In today's music there is no need for modes. Unless you are writing a piece based on the Medieval peroid, modes are useless.

I think you are confused by how Jazz musicians use modes. They use the word very loosely and it doesn't even mean true modal music. What they are doing can be better described as a chord with accidentals played over top.

If you want to argue more on this keep trying. You're failing. You have no clue about modes, give up. Honestly, just stop trying to convince yourself you know about modes. Nothing pisses me off more then guitarists who think they know all about modes because they play the "D Dorian" scale which is just C major starting and ending on D. Play the "D Dorian" scale all day, by the end of the day you are still playing C major starting and ending on D.

There's nothing creative about modes or anything interesting in them. That's the honest truth. Would you write a pop song and attempt to modulate to D Dorian? No you wouldn't. It would never have a catchy hook like you hear in today's pop that makes it so mainstream and easy to remember.

Go ahead try and defend yourself by a long post that just has a topic about pop being stupid. Face the facts, it's so mainstream because it has catchy hooks and easy to remember melodies. You would NEVER achieve this by modulating.

Modes are of no use in today's music. Jazz musicians may say they use modes, but they are not modulating 99.9% of the time.

Quote by hansome21
PS. Xter is right, modes are worthless and anyone who learns them on guitar is a moron. They have no place in modern music as modern music is based in all major/minor scales, they just have a fancy name.


sometimes with accidentals

This guy knows what he is talking about
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Last edited by Xter at Feb 14, 2012,
#14
Quote by Xter
No I can tell you truely have no clue about modes. They are restricting because they limit every move you can do. In today's music there is no need for modes. Unless you are writing a piece based on the Medieval peroid, modes are useless.

I think you are confused by how Jazz musicians use modes. They use the word very loosely and it doesn't even mean true modal music. What they are doing can be better described as a chord with accidentals played over top.


Actually, that's flat out wrong. Modes are restricting, yes, but they are hardly useless. If used properly, they're very useful when modulating or when you're looking to get a specific flavor in a passage. That's kind of like saying that the harmonic minor scale is useless unless you're writing baroque era music or the melodic minor is useless unless you're composing classical or romantic era music.

some jazz musicians without much education do misuse the word modes, but that Sccurs more often with rock and metal guitarists than jazz guitarists. Those guys tend to be more book-smart than the average metalhead. Modulation is very important in a number of subgenres of jazz. It's not true that every jazz guitarist knows modes inside and out, but it's patently false that all the converse necessarily follows (which is to say, you're wrong that all jazz guitarists fail to use modes properly).

Either way, this argument is unimportant to the initial question; modes are a topic best reserved for music theorists to get stiffies about more than they are something for the average musician to use. TS, refer to my post. That's what practicing entails, though we've got an awesome sticky dedicated to the subject as well. As for recommendations on what to practice, pick the piece that irks you most for not knowing and get to work. Actually practice it instead of trying to take it full tempo at the get-go and you'll make a lot more progress than you might think possible.
#15
Quote by Geldin
Actually, that's flat out wrong. Modes are restricting, yes, but they are hardly useless. If used properly, they're very useful when modulating or when you're looking to get a specific flavor in a passage. That's kind of like saying that the harmonic minor scale is useless unless you're writing baroque era music or the melodic minor is useless unless you're composing classical or romantic era music.

some jazz musicians without much education do misuse the word modes, but that Sccurs more often with rock and metal guitarists than jazz guitarists. Those guys tend to be more book-smart than the average metalhead. Modulation is very important in a number of subgenres of jazz. It's not true that every jazz guitarist knows modes inside and out, but it's patently false that all the converse necessarily follows (which is to say, you're wrong that all jazz guitarists fail to use modes properly).

Either way, this argument is unimportant to the initial question; modes are a topic best reserved for music theorists to get stiffies about more than they are something for the average musician to use. TS, refer to my post. That's what practicing entails, though we've got an awesome sticky dedicated to the subject as well. As for recommendations on what to practice, pick the piece that irks you most for not knowing and get to work. Actually practice it instead of trying to take it full tempo at the get-go and you'll make a lot more progress than you might think possible.




You are not educated at all. I have had 2 years of Music Theory and you are telling me I'm flat out wrong? I had to make 4 different modulations in that class for grades. And I passed all them with flying colors. Modes are the MOST USELESS THING IN MODERN MUSIC. No one truely modulates. Why don't you people get that? You need a talk in the Musician's Talk forum.

Jazz Musicians don't modulate 99.9% of the time. You never heard a modulation I can tell. Jazz musicians use those terms very loosely. Think of any mode you want. Now take that "mode" and figure out the intervals between each note. What do you know?! Each scales intervals are similar to Major or Minor. As I have said before, "modes" are best described as Major or Minor scales with accidentals.

You are not adding "flavor" by modulating. That's like saying taking one year old expired milk to make a cake. There is a reason the mode system crumbled away at the start of the Baroque peroid. It didn't work that well at all. The new system that arrived was far supperior to creating music then the old mode system that crumbled away.

You'd be surprised. Modes scare away most Rock and Metal guitarist. Get your facts striaght. Jazz musicians use "modes" more often and more incorrectly then any other catergory of musicians. If you want to say I was wrong on the Jazz musicians not modulating always, I said 99.9%. Read right or don't reply.

It may be, but I am correcting you people. You people seem to just think that anything you flab down is modal. Modes need to be used with a strict set of rules. You can't just play whatever you want then think it's modal. Modal compostions take a lot of work to form correctly.
Gibson Les Paul Custom (Aged White)
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MXR Six Band EQ
MXR Phase 90
#16
Quote by Geldin
Actually, that's flat out wrong. Modes are restricting, yes, but they are hardly useless. If used properly, they're very useful when modulating or when you're looking to get a specific flavor in a passage. That's kind of like saying that the harmonic minor scale is useless unless you're writing baroque era music or the melodic minor is useless unless you're composing classical or romantic era music.



Comparing modes to any minor scale shows that you have no true understanding of music theory. We all know a little bit but those of us who went to school for music are going to keep telling you the same thing. Modes are USELESS in modern music. It is not designed for them. Modes were invented back in ancient greece when instruments could only play perhaps one octave (or less) and no one played any sharps/flats. Imagine having a 1 string, 7 fret guitar. Have fun with your modes.

Please stop telling new people to learn them, they have no place in music at all, especially any music we have heard in our lifetimes, modes are out dated for a reason, they are bland and just reorganize notes instead of adding tension. And without getting too complicated, Xter's explanation of how jazz guitarists have accidentals is a much better way to describe jazz than 'modes'.
#17
Apple head... haha

What you should do right now is assess what you specifically want to be able to do, musically. For example, you may have one or more of the following goals:

Being able to jam with anybody at any time, without sounding like a hack
Being able to freely write songs without struggling or painting yourself into a corner
Being able to play at very high speeds, with perfect control
Being able to perform songs that either you've written or cover songs in front of an audience
Learning cover songs and playing them just for fun

Those are some of the basic goals that most guitar players who come to me for lessons want to achieve. Naturally, all of those goals 'require' different skills and practicing strategies. But WHAT you practice will directly be influenced by what you can or can't do right now.

You should take an inventory of what areas of music you are struggling with. Perhaps you have trouble with one or more of the following:

You struggle to HEAR music before you play it
You struggle to play the notes you WANT to play on your guitar
You struggle to write melodies or chord progressions
You struggle to come up with great improvised solos
You struggle to play clean and have a lot of excess string noise

Each of these musical frustrations have several causes. The reason why most guitar players do not get to an advanced level is because they simply don't know what is causing them to have these problems. Sometimes they figure out why they are struggling, but they may not be able to figure out exactly how to practice to solve the problems. Sometimes, they DO know how to solve the problem, but do not practice effectively and therefore make little to no progress.

This is why having a teacher is extremely valuable, and I recommend you look for a GOOD teacher. The one you had before doesn't sound like a very good teacher, from what you've said. This is normal, there are only a handful of great teachers in every city...

OKAY. This being said, let me list what the skills are that you should be aware of in order to improve your skills in these areas:

Aural Skills
Fretboard Memorization
Improvisation
Phrasing
Songwriting
2-Hand Synchronization
Music Theory

These are only a few of the things you need to practice. Obviously, you are at various levels in all of these skills. There is no way for me to give you a template for how to practice each of these skills because they are so extensive and vast... You will need to study each skill separately on your own.

You can also find out more about what other things you need to learn by checking out my article on "What Skills You Need to Improve Your Guitar Playing Faster"

https://www.guitarlessonsinsandiego.com/ImproveYourGuitarPlaying.html

In the meantime, with the things you already know how to do, I would recommend you to do the following:

1. Practice improvising using the scales you know. Learn both scales ALL over the guitar neck, not just in one position. That will give you greater pitch range which will improve the quality of your solos.

2. Practice composing your own music. You don't need to be a great guitar player to write great songs. Just think about Green Day. Some of the things you'll come up with will sound GREAT! Others may not sound so cool, but it's okay. It's just going through the process of developing and refining your creative ideas through the songwriting process that will really give you the greatest value here. This will also improve your improvising and general technique.

3. Practice integrating all the techniques you learned from the songs you can play. Make a list of all the things you know how to do: hammer-ons, legato, slides, bends, vibrato, double stops, etc... Label them all with a number, and pick 4 randomly. Put on a backing track and practice each technique in isolation, changing every time the chord progression repeats. This will help you to develop a more fluid transition between techniques, and improve your phrasing, improvising, and songwriting skills.
Last edited by maltmn at Feb 14, 2012,
#18
Quote by Xter
No I can tell you truely have no clue about modes. They are restricting because they limit every move you can do. In today's music there is no need for modes. Unless you are writing a piece based on the Medieval peroid, modes are useless.

I think you are confused by how Jazz musicians use modes. They use the word very loosely and it doesn't even mean true modal music. What they are doing can be better described as a chord with accidentals played over top.

If you want to argue more on this keep trying. You're failing. You have no clue about modes, give up. Honestly, just stop trying to convince yourself you know about modes. Nothing pisses me off more then guitarists who think they know all about modes because they play the "D Dorian" scale which is just C major starting and ending on D. Play the "D Dorian" scale all day, by the end of the day you are still playing C major starting and ending on D.

There's nothing creative about modes or anything interesting in them. That's the honest truth. Would you write a pop song and attempt to modulate to D Dorian? No you wouldn't. It would never have a catchy hook like you hear in today's pop that makes it so mainstream and easy to remember.

Go ahead try and defend yourself by a long post that just has a topic about pop being stupid. Face the facts, it's so mainstream because it has catchy hooks and easy to remember melodies. You would NEVER achieve this by modulating.

Modes are of no use in today's music. Jazz musicians may say they use modes, but they are not modulating 99.9% of the time.


sometimes with accidentals

This guy knows what he is talking about


I'm really not trying to argue. And I had no idea this would get such a rise on the forum. (You must be a teacher or something). I have people telling me the exact opposite about modes. I'm just going off by what I've been told before. (I guess it was wrong?)

Go ahead try and defend yourself by a long post that just has a topic about pop being stupid.


Ok you really lost me there. If you read my about me, it says "I appreciate all music"
Trust me, I'm a Jedi.

Quote by Minkaro
You must control your use of the force, young Trizek.
#19
Modes are not useless... They are a "new key". Here's an example:

Usually chord progressions in C major start on the C chord (the I chord). This makes your chord progression sound very .. happy. You can solo ALL over the guitar neck using C major (that includes the extensions: Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, and Locrian).

This chord progression is in C Major: C Major - D Minor - E Minor - F Major

This is where guitar players get confused and the arguments happen. The names I just listed above are NOT called modes in this context. Rather, they are simply inversions of the C major scale. This means you can play C major all over the guitar neck instead of in one spot (off the 8th fret).

However, to make things more conversational and easy to explain, the word 'mode' often gets used to describe those scale positions.

This is what a mode really is:

Instead of starting your chord progression on the I chord in C major, you might start it on the ii chord, and perhaps play the ii chord again in the chord progression.

This chord progression is in D Dorian: D minor - E Minor - D Minor - F Major

This FORCES the sound and feel of the C major key to sound completely different than it would if you started and ended on the I chord. You'll be soloing in the SAME place on the fretboard as you were in the C major chord progression. Nothing changes except the chords that are being played.

As long as you can control what notes you play over this new chord progression, you can play some really cool sounds. If you can't control what notes you play and you're just playing a sloppy mess, it's not really going to sound like much anyway, no matter what chords you play.

Every mode has a totally different feel. My favorites are Lydian, Locrian, and Dorian. I'm not so fond of the others, but they are okay... It's better than Ionian in my opinion, which is what everybody usually plays.

As an example, I attached a solo I composed earlier today for one of my songs. It's actually in D Dorian. You can hear how it's... got a kind of emotion that you just can't get from playing in C Major. I'm not playing any C chord, but I'm in the key of C major (sort of).
Attachments:
Dorian Solo.mid
#20
Quote by maltmn
Modes are not useless... They are a "new key". Here's an example:

Usually chord progressions in C major start on the C chord (the I chord). This makes your chord progression sound very .. happy. You can solo ALL over the guitar neck using C major (that includes the extensions: Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, and Locrian).

This chord progression is in C Major: C Major - D Minor - E Minor - F Major

This is where guitar players get confused and the arguments happen. The names I just listed above are NOT called modes in this context. Rather, they are simply inversions of the C major scale. This means you can play C major all over the guitar neck instead of in one spot (off the 8th fret).

However, to make things more conversational and easy to explain, the word 'mode' often gets used to describe those scale positions.

This is what a mode really is:

Instead of starting your chord progression on the I chord in C major, you might start it on the ii chord, and perhaps play the ii chord again in the chord progression.

This chord progression is in D Dorian: D minor - E Minor - D Minor - F Major

This FORCES the sound and feel of the C major key to sound completely different than it would if you started and ended on the I chord. You'll be soloing in the SAME place on the fretboard as you were in the C major chord progression. Nothing changes except the chords that are being played.

As long as you can control what notes you play over this new chord progression, you can play some really cool sounds. If you can't control what notes you play and you're just playing a sloppy mess, it's not really going to sound like much anyway, no matter what chords you play.

Every mode has a totally different feel. My favorites are Lydian, Locrian, and Dorian. I'm not so fond of the others, but they are okay... It's better than Ionian in my opinion, which is what everybody usually plays.

As an example, I attached a solo I composed earlier today for one of my songs. It's actually in D Dorian. You can hear how it's... got a kind of emotion that you just can't get from playing in C Major. I'm not playing any C chord, but I'm in the key of C major (sort of).


I disagree
#21
Quote by hansome21
I disagree


I agree with hansome21's disagreement.

Quote by Trizek
I'm really not trying to argue. And I had no idea this would get such a rise on the forum. (You must be a teacher or something). I have people telling me the exact opposite about modes. I'm just going off by what I've been told before. (I guess it was wrong?)


I was a teacher. I was very uptight with my theory because I want the correct information in my pupil's head.

There's no easy way to explain modes on an online forum. You need to learn the basics of theory and build upon that to construct modulations correctly. I'm just going to stop trying to inform you about them because it's going over your head completely.

Get a teacher or mentor, have them teach you basic theory. Get that down 100% accurate. Build upon that and make sure you understand the material.

Ok you really lost me there. If you read my about me, it says "I appreciate all music" [/


I did not bother going on your profile. I never go on anyone's profile on here. That's the usual agrument that people give. I get sick of trying to get a point across and people don't understand on here. Don't take anything that sounds ranty or moody to heart. I just get sick of all the people that are uneducated on here that try and give out information.
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Last edited by Xter at Feb 14, 2012,
#22
Quote by Xter


You are not educated at all. I have had 2 years of Music Theory and you are telling me I'm flat out wrong? I had to make 4 different modulations in that class for grades. And I passed all them with flying colors. Modes are the MOST USELESS THING IN MODERN MUSIC. No one truely modulates. Why don't you people get that? You need a talk in the Musician's Talk forum.

Nice sweeping assumption, mate. I've been studying music for three years and you're telling me I'm uneducated without knowing anything about me besides a name and avatar? Your statement was incorrect. Get over yourself.

You are not adding "flavor" by modulating. That's like saying taking one year old expired milk to make a cake. There is a reason the mode system crumbled away at the start of the Baroque peroid. It didn't work that well at all. The new system that arrived was far supperior to creating music then the old mode system that crumbled away.

I didn't say you added flavor through modulation. The modernized modal system can be applied in a number of ways, including modulation and creating what are called in layman's terms "flavors", which are essentially passages that use specific chord progressions based on the arrangement of notes unique to each mode.

You are referring the medieval modal system which was indeed phased out because it was clunky and overly complicated. The modernized modal system shares very little with the Medieval system besides some superficial names, so it's easy to get confused between the two. However, considering you're in a forum that caters to contemporary musicians more than music history-types, it's a fair assumption to use the term "mode" to refer to the modern system as opposed to the medieval system.

You'd be surprised. Modes scare away most Rock and Metal guitarist. Get your facts striaght. Jazz musicians use "modes" more often and more incorrectly then any other catergory of musicians. If you want to say I was wrong on the Jazz musicians not modulating always, I said 99.9%. Read right or don't reply.

Jazz musicians, those who use modes anyway, use the modern system of modality. Fact. I dunno about the number of jazz musicians who understand modality in any meaningful way, but I'd bet that the number is greater than 0.01%.

It may be, but I am correcting you people. You people seem to just think that anything you flab down is modal. Modes need to be used with a strict set of rules. You can't just play whatever you want then think it's modal. Modal compostions take a lot of work to form correctly.

This is what I love about people who take theory too seriously. There's always someone who thinks that they're the smartest little boy in the world after he takes a couple classes on the subject, kind of like the psych major who insists that all his friends have mood disorders.

Here's the thing: you're trying to justify wasting money on those classes by getting all high-and-mighty. You're not actually doing something humanitarian like educating the unwashed masses or anything. You're lording some quantum of perceived power because you think it makes you cool. It doesn't. You're really just being a dick (and you're wrong to boot).
#23
Quote by hansome21
I disagree


Actually, I don't think there's really anything to disagree with... I'm not stating an opinion, it's merely facts

Perhaps you disagree that modes are not useless? I guess that's fair enough, why do you disagree?
#24
ask yourself what you wish you could play right now. and go and practice that
Oh so this is what a signature is
#25
jeez I thought this kind of stuff only happened in MT...

....

I was going to move this, but the OP never mentioned modes, just wanted advice on getting better which involves improving technically as well as mentally.

In short, keep the modes arguments in MT please and keep this guy's thread on topic
Actually called Mark!

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#26
M-Word War
1 vs 1
Slashiepie has joined the spectators.
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#27
Quote by hansome21
I disagree

+1

That was a description of scale degrees, not modes.
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#28
Modes aren't important, but if you learn them than you're more apt to add a new flavor to your repertoire. Focus on other things first, Apple Head.

What exactly are you looking to do? Learn to solo? Improvise? Sweeps? I'm not going to get into modes because everybody obviously seems to have a different perspective on them >.>
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#29
look, just stfu about modes everybody - I don't want to have to lock this poor guy's thread.
Actually called Mark!

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...it's a seagull

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#30
Yeah, I definitely got really off topic.

TS, refer to my post about practicing - that appears to be the most concise explanation of what to do and ignore any post that says the m-word in it. Those discussions are more philosophical and theoretical than anything and they'll be useless to you unless you've studied a fair bit of theory already.
#31
Quote by Geldin
Nice sweeping assumption, mate. I've been studying music for three years and you're telling me I'm uneducated without knowing anything about me besides a name and avatar? Your statement was incorrect. Get over yourself.


Well obiviously you are not studying to well.

I didn't say you added flavor through modulation. The modernized modal system can be applied in a number of ways, including modulation and creating what are called in layman's terms "flavors",


What I put in bold you contradicted yourself. A). There's a logical reason for that or B). A dumb ass trying to twist your words to make you seem right.

I bet option B.

which are essentially passages that use specific chord progressions based on the arrangement of notes unique to each mode.


So basically what you are saying is you can take any chord progression based on an arrangement of notes (Or a Melody) and it's modal? Yeah, no.

You are referring the medieval modal system which was indeed phased out because it was clunky and overly complicated. The modernized modal system shares very little with the Medieval system besides some superficial names, so it's easy to get confused between the two. However, considering you're in a forum that caters to contemporary musicians more than music history-types, it's a fair assumption to use the term "mode" to refer to the modern system as opposed to the medieval system.


There is no modern system of modes. It can better be described as accidentals with well placed intervals. Basically what you are saying is there is two types of music, Modal music and Non-modal music. Modal music having seven groups and Non-modal music having one big group. Yeah, no. That is like saying all apples are fruits but Red apples are different species then Golden apples and Green apples. It does not make sense.

Modes died in the medieval time. We are still in the same boat as the Baroque period of music. Do you think Bach sat down and said "I'm going to write this in D Dorian."... No, if you disagreed then you don't belong in this debate.

The Baroque period brought accidentals to music and we still use that today. Nothing has really changed from then. We still have keys and we use accidentals to explain notes outside a key. Modes are nothing fancy. You just don't take a (insert chord type) 7th, 9th, 11th, or 13th chord and suddenly you are magically modal. Everything you do is better described as accidentals with well placed intervals (How many times have I stressed this yet?).

Jazz musicians, those who use modes anyway, use the modern system of modality. Fact. I dunno about the number of jazz musicians who understand modality in any meaningful way, but I'd bet that the number is greater than 0.01%.


No, it's probably equal to or less than .01%. Jazz musicians don't modulate. In fact what they do is better described as accidentals with well placed intervals (Hey stressing a point again...)

This is what I love about people who take theory too seriously. There's always someone who thinks that they're the smartest little boy in the world after he takes a couple classes on the subject, kind of like the psych major who insists that all his friends have mood disorders.


Bad example. Everyone has mood disorders. They are just so irrevelant that no one cares about them. No one is perfect, even with moods. I never claimed to be the "smartest little boy" but you seem to be trying too. There is always some one far more intelligent then you, but everyone is more intelligent then someone in a certain subject and I happen to be more intelligent then you in theory.

Here's the thing: you're trying to justify wasting money on those classes by getting all high-and-mighty. You're not actually doing something humanitarian like educating the unwashed masses or anything. You're lording some quantum of perceived power because you think it makes you cool. It doesn't. You're really just being a dick (and you're wrong to boot).


So you are trying to say that the money I spent for classes, learning music theory and all the time I put into those classes learning, that I should put more time educating every single person without basic theory? Without getting paid? No. I'm like every other human being and if I put money and time into something, I'm not giving that up for free. That is like saying to someone who goes to a $50,000 a year trade school. "Hey dude, I know you spend a lot of time and money to learn this, but can you teach me this and spend your time doing it because I don't want to pay?" I would love to see how loud and hard that guy laughs when you ask him that.

I already gave out information and my time trying to teach these people that. So I did do something humanitarian. You keep contradicting yourself, I would get that checked. (and you're wrong to boot.)

Quote by steven seagull
jeez I thought this kind of stuff only happened in MT...

....

I was going to move this, but the OP never mentioned modes, just wanted advice on getting better which involves improving technically as well as mentally.

In short, keep the modes arguments in MT please and keep this guy's thread on topic


I'm done with this debate now I stressed my point well enough. I'm tried of trying to illerate the same point over and over so no need to lock this thread now. My suggestions are on the first page.
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Last edited by Xter at Feb 15, 2012,
#32
Hahah. And I bet all that crap you guys discussed didnt help the OP one bit. I know it didnt help me!
#33
Nope. Like I said, arguing about modes is more philosophy and theory than most people will ever know, much less use. Regardless of whether Xter or myself is correct, none of it's relevant to his questions besides us both saying that it's nothing for TS to worry about (though I did make sure to post something useful before gallivanting off into "esoteric music theory land".