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#2
Focus on everything. No one becomes a player like that if they're not pretty confident with pretty much everything.
#3
http://all-guitar-chords.com/guitar_scales.php?scch=D&scchnam=Aeolian&get2=Get&t=0&choice=1
Start from the 10th fret position. Legato 3 notes per string until you can do it really fast. Then alternate pick it until you can do it really fast. Then do 3 notes and tap the 4th note on each string until you can do it really fast. Then pick another scale and see how quickly you can pick that up.

I mean that's not everything, obviously, but that's somewhere to start.
#4
That guy is beast!
practice everything very well. Remember, it's not what you practice, it's how you practice.
#5
Quote by captainsnazz
http://all-guitar-chords.com/guitar_scales.php?scch=D&scchnam=Aeolian&get2=Get&t=0&choice=1
Start from the 10th fret position. Legato 3 notes per string until you can do it really fast. Then alternate pick it until you can do it really fast. Then do 3 notes and tap the 4th note on each string until you can do it really fast. Then pick another scale and see how quickly you can pick that up.

I mean that's not everything, obviously, but that's somewhere to start.


I don't know how it's possible to remember all of those chords and scales.

Quote by meticadpa
Focus on everything. No one becomes a player like that if they're not pretty confident with pretty much everything.

Thing is I do not know what "everything" is lol. All I know that there is to learn is arpeggios, scales, chords, tapping techniques, theory, and all of that is a lot to learn and very confusing.
Last edited by Who Sh0t Ya HxO at Feb 15, 2012,
#6
You should not try to play like him, his phrasing is really weak. His Vibrato sucks and his bendings sound clumsy.

However if you want to learn licks like that you could download some symphony x tabs. That will cover most of the stuff he does.

Scales: minor and major(ionic, aeolic) pentatonic, standard stuff
Arpeggios: minor, major, sometimes with add 6 or 7 in the tapped arpeggios, quod vide michael romeo
Last edited by Facecut at Feb 16, 2012,
#7
Quote by Facecut
You should not try to play like him, his phrasing is really weak. His Vibrato sucks and his bendings sound clumsy.

However if you want to learn licks like that you could download some symphony x tabs. That will cover most of the stuff he does.


I kind of agree, but you are never going to find a guitarist who is good at everything. His vibrato is very poor and he never adds vibrato to bends. Apart from that he is an extremely talented musician.
#8
Quote by mrbabo91
I kind of agree, but you are never going to find a guitarist who is good at everything. His vibrato is very poor and he never adds vibrato to bends. Apart from that he is an extremely talented musician.


What really bothers me is the fact that this guy practised a lot, at least his left hand, and he has got some good and funny ideas, why not spend some of the practise time on the most important expressional skills? You should not be allowed to shred if the easiest melody sounds like garbage;-)
I like shredding but not if its this nerdy unmusical type. He should just catch up in that regard.
Last edited by Facecut at Feb 16, 2012,
#9
Quote by Facecut
What really bothers me is the fact that this guy practised a lot, at least his left hand, and he has got some good and funny ideas, why not spend some of the practise time on the most important expressional skills? You should not be allowed to shred if the easiest melody sounds like garbage;-)
I like shredding but not if its this nerdy unmusical type. He should just catch up in that regard.


I agree. Vibrato is THE most important technique on the guitar
#10
Guys, it's only one video... he has many more. It's not like he's going to use every technique there is in one video. In THIS video, yes the vibrato was low or "weak" but maybe he didn't want to add a lot of vibrato? to say his vibrato "sucks" is ignorant because it was only video, and for the bendings, I thought the bendings were good... as in normal bends, how do they sound clumsy? The dude went to the University of Tampa, Florida for Classical Guitar, I think he knows a thing or two about guitar techniques, and as far as his phrasing goes, how is it weak in any way?

When you say easiest melodies sounding like garbage what were you referring to?


Maybe he will show you different in any of his other videos

...
...


If you're a Skyrim fan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDE2VQzghp4&feature=related

If you're a Transformers(tv series) fan. Bends and vibrato are far from weak on this one, like I said it was only one video where he did not want to use a lot of vibrato, and as for the bends I never seen a problem with them anyway.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQnuD1jxxOQ&feature=channel

If you're a dubstep fan here is Skrillex meeting metal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3VIJTFS3Nc&feature=related

If you're a Nicki Manaj fan, even if you're not a fan, like me, it is still a great listen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mx0eFbRNUgo&feature=channel
Last edited by Who Sh0t Ya HxO at Feb 17, 2012,
#11
Quote by mrbabo91
I agree. Vibrato is THE most important technique on the guitar

Gonna disagree. Proper fretting is the most important skill on guitar, if any can be named at all. If you fret incorrectly, you're gonna lose proper intonation and you pose more risk of injuring yourself. Vibrato's nice, but it's the most overrated skill I've come across (with sweep picking being a close second).

Guys, it's only one video... he has many more. It's not like he's going to use every technique there is in one video. In THIS video, yes the vibrato was low or "weak" but maybe he didn't want to add a lot of vibrato? to say his vibrato "sucks" is ignorant because it was only video, and for the bendings, I thought the bendings were good... as in normal bends, how do they sound clumsy? The dude went to the University of Tampa, Florida for Classical Guitar, I think he knows a thing or two about guitar techniques, and as far as his phrasing goes, how is it weak in any way?

You've definitely got some logical fallacies going on here, but I'll ignore those and go right for the meat of your argument: his vibrato is very similar to Kirk Hammett's - it's really shallow and fast, making it sound thin and uncontrolled. He's not terrible, but he could definitely do with some practice in that regard.

His bends are fine, but his technique always looks a little.... off, I guess, to me (the movement seems a little awkward to me). It works and he's usually in tune, but it looks uncomfortable to me.

His phrasing is weak in that it doesn't really break out of simple scalar and arpeggiated patterns. His fast bits always tend to be the same kind of minor alternate picking runs, swept arpeggios, and the occasional tapping lick. He's got the technical aspect of those bits down, but he doesn't use his skills in a particularly interesting manner.
#12
Quote by Who Sh0t Ya HxO
Guys, it's only one video... he has many more. It's not like he's going to use every technique there is in one video. In THIS video, yes the vibrato was low or "weak" but maybe he didn't want to add a lot of vibrato? to say his vibrato "sucks" is ignorant because it was only video, and for the bendings, I thought the bendings were good... as in normal bends, how do they sound clumsy? The dude went to the University of Tampa, Florida for Classical Guitar, I think he knows a thing or two about guitar techniques, and as far as his phrasing goes, how is it weak in any way?

When you say easiest melodies sounding like garbage what were you referring to?


Maybe he will show you different in any of his other videos



I watched more than one video. If you can show me a video of his where he phrases better please go ahead. I doubt it though, I am pretty confident that you can judge a guitar players abilities if you just let him play a simple lullaby.

Maybe he didn´t want to add a lot of vibrato? Maybe, in the baroque they did´t use vibrato but they used other stylistic features for articulation instead, leading to the result of a well sounding phrase. That guy was not sucessfull here. He doesn´t shape his phrases in a musical way for my ears. To be honest I think he is just not capable of producing good vibrato on an electric, thats the reason for him not doing it, not a decision.

Bendings: They sound and look like they are unfamiliar to him. I just don´t feel it when he does them. It´s no surprise given that his vibrato sucks, its basicly the same technique.
#13
Quote by mrbabo91
I kind of agree, but you are never going to find a guitarist who is good at everything. His vibrato is very poor and he never adds vibrato to bends. Apart from that he is an extremely talented musician.


Unless you count Guthrie Govan, of course.
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#14
Gonna disagree. Proper fretting is the most important skill on guitar, if any can be named at all. If you fret incorrectly, you're gonna lose proper intonation and you pose more risk of injuring yourself. Vibrato's nice, but it's the most overrated skill I've come across (with sweep picking being a close second).
QUOTE]


Proper fretting is very important but i don't think you can call vibrato the most overrated skill. Whether your a shredder or a country player, if you have a sucky vibrato then you will always sound shit.

I think paul gilbert said that you can judge a guitar player based purely on his vibrato.
#15
It's not that I want to play like him, it's that I want to have the ability to play neo-classical/power metal style solos. When I close my eyes, his solos remind me that off Dragonforce's sound, but can actually play the solo live.

Quote by Geldin

His phrasing is weak in that it doesn't really break out of simple scalar and arpeggiated patterns. His fast bits always tend to be the same kind of minor alternate picking runs, swept arpeggios, and the occasional tapping lick.

Okay I was under the impression that phrasing was "how it is played" rather than what is being played. Apparently how he is playing his solos is a weak and simple way. Could you explain to me what you're definition of phrasing is.

Quote by Geldin

He's got the technical aspect of those bits down, but he doesn't use his skills in a particularly interesting manner.


He's always doing some sort of tapping technique and putting the tremolo to use in a unique way, I don't understand how that isn't interesting. Tapping that well isn't that easy, not to mention his sweeps are pretty clean.

NONETHELESS no matter how he is playing, the sounds and melodies that come out of my speakers sounds good to me, "epic" sounding I guess, sort of like super hero music.
Last edited by Who Sh0t Ya HxO at Feb 18, 2012,
#16
He's basing alot of his soloing off of the vocals riff that he played at around 1 min in.

And to tell you the truth, I hate his version more than the original (which I dislike alot)
Quote by FEngHLyan

She will join the prom.

She insists to wear this lights.

I don't think so.

How can I persuade her?
#17
Well if a song has vocals in it he's going to turn those vocals into metal... thus "meets metal" He turns every song into a metal version.
#18
Quote by Geldin
Gonna disagree. Proper fretting is the most important skill on guitar, if any can be named at all. If you fret incorrectly, you're gonna lose proper intonation and you pose more risk of injuring yourself. Vibrato's nice, but it's the most overrated skill I've come across (with sweep picking being a close second).


You're kidding right...

I swear by every post you show you have no common sense. I don't know where to start but "Proper Fretting" is not a "skill" or what we call a technique. It's a basic ability to correctly position the fingers on the fretboard. Vibrato is a technique and it is not over rated. It is under rated. I see so many "shredders" and rock guitarist with poor vibrato. They don't focus on moving the pitch to a rhythm with the beat. They mostly go wild with it. Another problem is they don't change the pitch in a musical way. It is where ever they decide to go, whether that be a minor 2nd from the first note they started to use their vibrato suddenly to a major 3rd to a major 2nd.

Imagine a violin solo without vibrato. It doesn't sound as "colour-full". Imagine that violin solo with a musical vibrato that has a statement and definition. It sounds better to the majority of people with the vibrato. If you don't like vibrato fine, but don't rant it's over rated.

Vibrato is an important technique that should be practiced by all aspiring musicans. Even if your vibrato is "good" it should still be practiced. I will only agree with you on the sweep picking being a "over rated" technique, but it should still be learnt and practiced. Every technique adds to the possibilities of musical statements you can express with your instrument.

You've definitely got some logical fallacies going on here, but I'll ignore those and go right for the meat of your argument: his vibrato is very similar to Kirk Hammett's - it's really shallow and fast, making it sound thin and uncontrolled. He's not terrible, but he could definitely do with some practice in that regard.

His bends are fine, but his technique always looks a little.... off, I guess, to me (the movement seems a little awkward to me). It works and he's usually in tune, but it looks uncomfortable to me.

His phrasing is weak in that it doesn't really break out of simple scalar and arpeggiated patterns. His fast bits always tend to be the same kind of minor alternate picking runs, swept arpeggios, and the occasional tapping lick. He's got the technical aspect of those bits down, but he doesn't use his skills in a particularly interesting manner.


I'll agree his vibrato is poor, but not similar to Kirk's. Kirk's is better to my ear. The guy's vibrato isn't really that fast though, it seems just a big shallow puddle he's dipping in.

To my ear his bends are off a tad bit. I would just say he isn't use to bending on a Floyd rose tremolo by the sound of it. His technique isn't off though. He just curls his pinky in when it's not in use like a lot of players tend too. His runs and arppegios are fine, they are pretty clean too. Just wish there was more definition to them though.

His phrasing is diffently not weak, but it is not great by any means. I'm guessing you have not heard many technical solos by "break out of simple scalar and arppeggiated patterns". The majority of metal solos tend to have scalar runs or arppegiated runs to get to a certain note. He just lacks a good note choice behind those runs. I forget what famous guitarist said this but it was something like this;

Every "shred" style solo should have a simple melody at first. Something that you like and would fit the chord progression. Next you want to start adding licks, runs, and fills inbetween some of those notes. Those licks should have a reason for being there other than being fast. Then just try to emphasize the notes in the first melody you made. That is the basic procress, atleast for me!


I will also agree that it isn't interesting, atleast to me too. This would probably impress a newer metal guitarist, but not me.
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#19
I swear I posted a nice explanation of why vibrato is an overrated skill a few hours back, but I can't find it for the life of me.
Quote by Xter
I swear by every post you show you have no common sense. I don't know where to start but "Proper Fretting" is not a "skill" or what we call a technique. It's a basic ability to correctly position the fingers on the fretboard.

I'm not getting into the personal attacks with you. If you want to keep up the jabs and whatnot, fine, but realize that they're just discrediting you by making you look petty.

Proper fretting is the most underrated skill on guitar. Your very attitude that it isn't a technique is case-in-point evidence of that. A technique is simply a method of achieving something or carrying it out. Fretting a note is exactly that, though many players (yourself included) assume that it's too simple to be considered a technical aspect of playing when it is among the most important aspects of playing.

Almost every further technique you can perform requires some ability to fret properly. If you fret too hard, you risk a note going sharp and having too much tension in your fretting hand to manage faster widdly-widdly bits. If you fret too lightly, you'll get a muted note or unintentional harmonic and you're sound won't be anywhere near fluent. I've taught a number of folks who start out fretting way too hard, which is hugely detrimental to your playing.

Vibrato is a technique and it is not over rated. It is under rated. I see so many "shredders" and rock guitarist with poor vibrato. They don't focus on moving the pitch to a rhythm with the beat.

There are so many little kiddies that crawl out the cracks who create the false dichotomy of "speed vs. feel" in threads that you wouldn't believe it. Stick around here for a while and you'll see them show up time and again.

Imagine a violin solo without vibrato. It doesn't sound as "colour-full". Imagine that violin solo with a musical vibrato that has a statement and definition. It sounds better to the majority of people with the vibrato. If you don't like vibrato fine, but don't rant it's over rated.

Actually, as a violinist, I can argue this one down to the ground. A note without vibrato is a note. Many baroque composers and violinists actually preferred avoiding vibrato, thinking that it sounded weak and less resolute. It's an interesting way of thinking. Either way, the violin example is quite poor because a violin is so radically different from an electric guitar that the analogy is, while sensical, quite weak. There are many, many ways to add color to a guitar's tone than vibrato; violinists have far fewer tools that they can use to add color or flair to notes.


His phrasing is diffently not weak, but it is not great by any means. I'm guessing you have not heard many technical solos by "break out of simple scalar and arppeggiated patterns". The majority of metal solos tend to have scalar runs or arppegiated runs to get to a certain note. He just lacks a good note choice behind those runs.

The majority of solos in metal suck and have zero impact after they're over. They're cool and flashy, but I can't remember most of the solos I've heard before. The reason is that the phrasing is limited to simple scalar runs and arpeggiated patterns. Check out Per Nilsson's solos - he's very technically skilled, but he isn't playing licks and patterns as much as he's creating a textured sonic landscape (that sounds extremely pretentious, but in my mind, it's a very apt description). His solos are interesting and memorable. Same goes for Paul Waggoner, AJ Minette, Corey Beaulieu, Al Di Meola, Jean Luc Ponty, Paul Masvidal.... the list goes on, but you get the idea. All of those guys understand effective phrasing and end up making musical statements with their lead parts rather than just filling in the space with noise.

This guy doesn't; he just fills in empty space with whatever technical run he feels like doing without so much as a sense of direction or meaning. Shred guitar solos tend to be boring, wanky affairs with poor phrasing being partially covered up with technical virtuosity. If you listen to three of them that have similar tempos, they'll all start to run together in your head. Lick based playing is an inferior way of playing anyhow, given that it limits your range of expression, but that's a whole other argument to make.
#20
Sorry for the double post, but adding to my last one was getting unwieldy.

Quote by mrbabo91
I think paul gilbert said that you can judge a guitar player based purely on his vibrato.

I think Paul Gilbert is wrong. Going by Mr. Gilbert's argument, David Gilmour is necessarily a better guitarist than Jason Becker. As to which is a better musician is a personal call, but technically, Becker is objectively a vastly more skilled guitarist than Gilmour. Gilmour beats Becker in vibrato, but Becker's got him on each and every other skill out there.

I like both a great deal and I'd have trouble picking which one was a superior musician, but you cannot judge a guitarist on any one facet of his playing and assume that it's true for all others. It's kind of like saying that you can judge a guitar player purely on his sweep picking (Paul Ryan or MAB wins), or his legato (Alan Holdsworth wins), how low he tunes (Fredrick Thordendal would definitely be up there), or any other single facet of his playing rather than the whole package.

I'm sure when Paul made that statement, it was an exaggeration that wasn't meant to be taken literally as evidence that vibrato has some je ne sais quois that elevates it above all other techniques. Or maybe it was him indirectly being humble again, since his vibrato is pretty average compared to some other well known solo guitarists like Vai, Satch, and Malmsteen.
#21
Funny thing is, you guys are discussing technical stuff that he isn't doing or producing when in fact you couldn't do any of what he IS doing.
#22
Quote by Who Sh0t Ya HxO

Okay I was under the impression that phrasing was "how it is played" rather than what is being played. Apparently how he is playing his solos is a weak and simple way. Could you explain to me what you're definition of phrasing is.


You are correct. Phrasing is the relationship between different notes in a musical phrase in regard to dynamics, rhythm, articulation and usage of pauses. I include vibrato because its connected to articulation.

So by phrasing I was referring to the shaping of the phrase, not the content. I don´t mind the content, I said he has got some good, funny and ironic ideas, but I can´t appreciate it with that phrasing. It becomes intolerable in the slower melodious parts and when he holds longer notes.

Also what sweep arpeggios are you guys talking about. He doesn´t use sweeps, at least not in that video. It´s all legato with tapping.

About the fretting and vibrato. You can´t compare those, because they are not on the same level. Proper fretting is a prerequisite for everything else.
#23
Quote by Who Sh0t Ya HxO
Funny thing is, you guys are discussing technical stuff that he isn't doing or producing when in fact you couldn't do any of what he IS doing.


Thats an assumption of someone who has no overview of the degree of difficulty. I don´t think it´s harder than symphony x solos and those are playable if challenging with a reasonable amount of gain. This guy uses a tone that plays by itself, he doesn´t even need his right hand other than muting, breathing on the strings is probably enough for that processor-based chemo distortion through emgs and an insane amount of gain.
Last edited by Facecut at Feb 19, 2012,
#24
Quote by Geldin
Sorry for the double post, but adding to my last one was getting unwieldy.


I think Paul Gilbert is wrong. Going by Mr. Gilbert's argument, David Gilmour is necessarily a better guitarist than Jason Becker. As to which is a better musician is a personal call, but technically, Becker is objectively a vastly more skilled guitarist than Gilmour. Gilmour beats Becker in vibrato, but Becker's got him on each and every other skill out there.

I like both a great deal and I'd have trouble picking which one was a superior musician, but you cannot judge a guitarist on any one facet of his playing and assume that it's true for all others. It's kind of like saying that you can judge a guitar player purely on his sweep picking (Paul Ryan or MAB wins), or his legato (Alan Holdsworth wins), how low he tunes (Fredrick Thordendal would definitely be up there), or any other single facet of his playing rather than the whole package.

I'm sure when Paul made that statement, it was an exaggeration that wasn't meant to be taken literally as evidence that vibrato has some je ne sais quois that elevates it above all other techniques. Or maybe it was him indirectly being humble again, since his vibrato is pretty average compared to some other well known solo guitarists like Vai, Satch, and Malmsteen.


You do make a fair point, and i agree with you about phrasing. I would say that Gilmour can phrase better than Becker but im not going to argue as to which persons a better musician.
#25
Quote by Geldin
I swear I posted a nice explanation of why vibrato is an overrated skill a few hours back, but I can't find it for the life of me.

I'm not getting into the personal attacks with you. If you want to keep up the jabs and whatnot, fine, but realize that they're just discrediting you by making you look petty.


Find that "nice" explanation then.

I'm not, I'm pointing something out.

Proper fretting is the most underrated skill on guitar. Your very attitude that it isn't a technique is case-in-point evidence of that. A technique is simply a method of achieving something or carrying it out. Fretting a note is exactly that, though many players (yourself included) assume that it's too simple to be considered a technical aspect of playing when it is among the most important aspects of playing.


You keep referring to it as a skill, not a technique. No one will take you serious if you keep that up. A technique is described as "The skill in a particular field." You don't go around shouting about your ability to "Properly Fret". It is not a technique in any aspect.

Almost every further technique you can perform requires some ability to fret properly. If you fret too hard, you risk a note going sharp and having too much tension in your fretting hand to manage faster widdly-widdly bits. If you fret too lightly, you'll get a muted note or unintentional harmonic and you're sound won't be anywhere near fluent. I've taught a number of folks who start out fretting way too hard, which is hugely detrimental to your playing.


You even proved it's an ability rather then a technique by that.

I have taught a number of people too, don't think it makes you more qualifed then anyone else. It is not hugely detrimental, you just won't be as effective with speed runs or anything real fast. For you to fret that note that hard to make it go out of tune, you'd have to be causing injury somehow to yourself. If you are fretting too lightly then you should be able to tell. Simple. It is a basic ability, nothing more. Everyone frets differently so the idea of Proper fretting is asbursb in itself. Whatever works without causing injury or playing issues.

There are so many little kiddies that crawl out the cracks who create the false dichotomy of "speed vs. feel" in threads that you wouldn't believe it. Stick around here for a while and you'll see them show up time and again.


I have seen those threads and replied to a few. I have been here for a bit. Just a month shorter then you assuming you joined at the start of september and not somewhere in September. I might not have been active for the first year, but I have been for quite a time now. I believe before in a previous thread you mentioned not to assume things, practice what you preach.

Actually, as a violinist, I can argue this one down to the ground. A note without vibrato is a note. Many baroque composers and violinists actually preferred avoiding vibrato, thinking that it sounded weak and less resolute. It's an interesting way of thinking. Either way, the violin example is quite poor because a violin is so radically different from an electric guitar that the analogy is, while sensical, quite weak. There are many, many ways to add color to a guitar's tone than vibrato; violinists have far fewer tools that they can use to add color or flair to notes.


I been a violinist for six years. For four of those years I been in an orchestra. I can tell you that you need to stop your false truths to make it seem you are right. Baroque composers favored vibrato. I'm assuming you never had the thought of it's quite hard if not impossible to add a musical vibrato to 16th notes while each note changes from the last. I guess a better question would be, have you ever read a classical piece?... If you look at the scores, notice how they write in vibrato where it's appliable.

Guitar and violin are very similar, from tuning to the note spread. Notice how on violin, notes appear multiple times in the same octave. This provides in itself a wide tonal selection. You can play the same note in the same octave on two different strings. It's just the string guage affects how the tone of the note is because each string produces a difference in frequency. Not to mention you can bow in different spots in accordance to the bridge that produces a unique tone. Closer to the bridge is generally more "harsher" or closer to the finger board is more "warmer". Bowing with different parts of the bow will produce different tones too, you can bow close to the frog, or the middle, or the tip of the bow. There are an infinite amount of ways and combos to colour a violin's tone.

I know my conductor had half of a section play the notes in first position then the other half in second position where it was possible. It added a more "fuller" sound (or tone) as she would say. But what did she know, she has only been conducting for 20 years

If you want to be true to the example, if we are talking about Electric Guitars lets talk Electric Violins. They have volume and tone knobs. Some even have EQs. Then you have many amps to choose. I would say in fact there are equal if not more ways to dynamically alter the tone of a violin compared to a guitar.

The majority of solos in metal suck and have zero impact after they're over. They're cool and flashy, but I can't remember most of the solos I've heard before. The reason is that the phrasing is limited to simple scalar runs and arpeggiated patterns. Check out Per Nilsson's solos - he's very technically skilled, but he isn't playing licks and patterns as much as he's creating a textured sonic landscape (that sounds extremely pretentious, but in my mind, it's a very apt description). His solos are interesting and memorable. Same goes for Paul Waggoner, AJ Minette, Corey Beaulieu, Al Di Meola, Jean Luc Ponty, Paul Masvidal.... the list goes on, but you get the idea. All of those guys understand effective phrasing and end up making musical statements with their lead parts rather than just filling in the space with noise.


Don't stick your opinions in there if I can't state my opinions of you. It just makes you look more petty and discredits you. Your memory must be broke because I can remember a few metal solos, even though later you in that paragraph you state that you have a few memorable solos. Nice contradictions. Then you contradict again because you said "the phrasing is limited to simple scalar runs and arppegiated patterns", and continue to name guitarist that don't do that. You should really proof read what you write.

In the summary, you said it's the player rather then the style in that paragraph at the end, yet at the start of that paragraph you argued it's the style. Another contradiction.

This guy doesn't; he just fills in empty space with whatever technical run he feels like doing without so much as a sense of direction or meaning. Shred guitar solos tend to be boring, wanky affairs with poor phrasing being partially covered up with technical virtuosity. If you listen to three of them that have similar tempos, they'll all start to run together in your head. Lick based playing is an inferior way of playing anyhow, given that it limits your range of expression, but that's a whole other argument to make.


In the above paragraph you tried to argue this point then backed it up with guitarist that don't have "poor phrasing" I'm confused, are you trying to present as many contradictions as you can or prove the opposite with the reverse?

The guy had a whole song to play with. You don't know his intentions he wanted to present. He could of just wanted to show off his technical ability and impress people, if so he did. The majority of people who don't play an instrument will be impressed by technical ability rather then musical choice.

Lick based playing is very effective, think about it. Would you have the time to bring everything up to speed cleanly and be in control while releasing albums and playing live trying meet the demands of the fans and maintain a living? No. It's effective because it gives them a range of things they can do that is pre-practiced.

If you are trying to argue it limits your range of expression that is false. You can slow down a lick, add different dynamics, repeat a segment, or skip a segment, and shift that lick to different areas of the neck. It's just whatever you choose to do with that lick.
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Last edited by Xter at Feb 19, 2012,
#26
Quote by Xter
You keep referring to it as a skill, not a technique. No one will take you serious if you keep that up. A technique is described as "The skill in a particular field." You don't go around shouting about your ability to "Properly Fret". It is not a technique in any aspect.

You even proved it's an ability rather then a technique by that.

You do realize I was using those terms as synonyms, correct? You do understand how those work? A skill, ability, and technique are all roughly the same thing. Just replace all instances of those synonyms with "technique" if it helps you sleep at night.

I have taught a number of people too, don't think it makes you more qualifed then anyone else.

I'm not claiming superiority. I'm using anecdotal evidence. You've used it too, broski, and (might I add) with far more condescension and arrogance than I.

It is not hugely detrimental, you just won't be as effective with speed runs or anything real fast. For you to fret that note that hard to make it go out of tune, you'd have to be causing injury somehow to yourself. If you are fretting too lightly then you should be able to tell. Simple. It is a basic ability, nothing more. Everyone frets differently so the idea of Proper fretting is asbursb in itself. Whatever works without causing injury or playing issues.

Have you played an electric guitar before? It's really easy to use more force than necessary to fret a note. I think it's something in the area of an ounce of force or something like that. That's a tiny amount and you have to train yourself to use only that much or else you're wasting energy and creating undue tension in your hand. A lot of my beginning students have used so much force that they fret the note out of tune and cannot change chords easily or perform basic legato cleanly.

I been a violinist for six years. For four of those years I been in an orchestra. I can tell you that you need to stop your false truths to make it seem you are right. Baroque composers favored vibrato. I'm assuming you never had the thought of it's quite hard if not impossible to add a musical vibrato to 16th notes while each note changes from the last. I guess a better question would be, have you ever read a classical piece?... If you look at the scores, notice how they write in vibrato where it's appliable.

I've played for seven years, five of those in some kind of group arrangement, be it a jazz combo, folk group, or orchestra, primarily the latter. I've studied composition for four years with a strong emphasis on Baroque music. I can say right out that you are dead wrong.

Baroque composers preferred musicians to avoid finger vibrato outside of longer notes in unaccompanied solo passages. In most cases, composers preferred bow vibrato, a technique that has largely fallen out favor in the violin community in favor of finger vibrato. It's an easy mistake to make, but in this case, when I say vibrato, I'm referring to finger vibrato except where I explicitly indicate some other variety (for example, using the vibrato bar or stating "bow vibrato" or something to that effect).

Guitar and violin are very similar, from tuning to the note spread. Notice how on violin, notes appear multiple times in the same octave. This provides in itself a wide tonal selection. You can play the same note in the same octave on two different strings. It's just the string guage affects how the tone of the note is because each string produces a difference in frequency. Not to mention you can bow in different spots in accordance to the bridge that produces a unique tone. Closer to the bridge is generally more "harsher" or closer to the finger board is more "warmer". Bowing with different parts of the bow will produce different tones too, you can bow close to the frog, or the middle, or the tip of the bow. There are an infinite amount of ways and combos to colour a violin's tone.

The guitar is a vastly different instrument. The strings are plucked rather than bowed. Frets are used to distinguish note position. Guitars are tuned for easy open chord voicings rather than clean perfect fifths as is the case with the violin. Whereas violinists are for the most part limited to technical changes to change their tone, electric guitarists have those mechanical choices in addition to control over their pickup selection, their potentiometers, and a virtually limitless selection of devices by which to alter their signal before it ever hits an amplifier. A violin is a far more limited instrument.

If you want to be true to the example, if we are talking about Electric Guitars lets talk Electric Violins. They have volume and tone knobs. Some even have EQs. Then you have many amps to choose. I would say in fact there are equal if not more ways to dynamically alter the tone of a violin compared to a guitar.

Still no, for the most part. Electric violins tend to use piezo pickups, which are very different from magnetic pups. The array of choices for piezoelectric signal modification is far more limited because of the popularity of magnetic pups. Most effects can be used with piezo pups, but usually you have to be a lot more sparing in their application because they aren't designed for that application. It's similar to how you can apply guitar effects to a bass guitar, but they are designed for different frequency ranges, so the effect is more limited because it's outside of its native frequency range.

Your memory must be broke because I can remember a few metal solos, even though later you in that paragraph you state that you have a few memorable solos. Nice contradictions. Then you contradict again because you said "the phrasing is limited to simple scalar runs and arppegiated patterns", and continue to name guitarist that don't do that. You should really proof read what you write.

I was using a totum pro parte synedoche to indicate that most metal guitarists don't have good phrasing, then indicated a number of guitarists, most of whom are not exclusively (if at all) limited to the metal genre. Those guitarists are all good examples of musicians who understand phrasing and write effective solos. The majority of metal guitarists do not have this skill (ability, technique, call it what you will, though the meaning is the same).


Lick based playing is very effective, think about it. Would you have the time to bring everything up to speed cleanly and be in control while releasing albums and playing live trying meet the demands of the fans and maintain a living? No. It's effective because it gives them a range of things they can do that is pre-practiced.

If you are trying to argue it limits your range of expression that is false. You can slow down a lick, add different dynamics, repeat a segment, or skip a segment, and shift that lick to different areas of the neck. It's just whatever you choose to do with that lick.

Lick based playing is taking a preprepared series of notes and using them in a modular fashion. It's essentially a paint-by-the-numbers method of playing. Licks are fine for improvising, but when you sit down and write a solo, you're better off not using licks, since that imposes needless limits on your expression. You seem to be thinking purely in terms of improvising whereas I'm talking about solos in general, be it composed or improvised. In either situation, if you've got a good sense of melody and phrasing, it's better to rely on that rather than licks to fill out your solos.

At this point, I think you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. This is way off topic and I think TS's question has been answered pretty thoroughly.
#27
Quote by Geldin
You do realize I was using those terms as synonyms, correct? You do understand how those work? A skill, ability, and technique are all roughly the same thing. Just replace all instances of those synonyms with "technique" if it helps you sleep at night.


You realize that when you use those terms they are in different meanings. You are not using them as synonyms in context.

I'm not claiming superiority. I'm using anecdotal evidence. You've used it too, broski, and (might I add) with far more condescension and arrogance than I.


No you pretty much did. I didn't use mine as superiority, I used it to prevent you from arguing you know more being you taught.

Look more opinions, I believe I pointed that out before about practicing what you preach.

Have you played an electric guitar before? It's really easy to use more force than necessary to fret a note. I think it's something in the area of an ounce of force or something like that. That's a tiny amount and you have to train yourself to use only that much or else you're wasting energy and creating undue tension in your hand. A lot of my beginning students have used so much force that they fret the note out of tune and cannot change chords easily or perform basic legato cleanly.


No I have not. I just taught people because I watched youtube for 5 minutes. Not to mention all my guitars and junk that are laying about my room. I just thought I'd mention the gear I have in my signature too, but don't use.

That's called economy of motion. That takes a while to get use too. Again if you are fretting to hard you are causing injury to yourself and I'm amazed you are still playing.

I'm confused by what you mean with perform basic legato cleanly. I'm pretty sure you need more force to make a hammer on or pull off sound and be clean then you would need picking, unless you like to have undefined notes or play with to much distrotion.

I've played for seven years, five of those in some kind of group arrangement, be it a jazz combo, folk group, or orchestra, primarily the latter. I've studied composition for four years with a strong emphasis on Baroque music. I can say right out that you are dead wrong.

Baroque composers preferred musicians to avoid finger vibrato outside of longer notes in unaccompanied solo passages. In most cases, composers preferred bow vibrato, a technique that has largely fallen out favor in the violin community in favor of finger vibrato. It's an easy mistake to make, but in this case, when I say vibrato, I'm referring to finger vibrato except where I explicitly indicate some other variety (for example, using the vibrato bar or stating "bow vibrato" or something to that effect).


You proved my point, there is vibrato. I never mentioned what kind of vibrato, nice try. Don't put words in my mouth, again practice what you preach.

The guitar is a vastly different instrument. The strings are plucked rather than bowed. Frets are used to distinguish note position. Guitars are tuned for easy open chord voicings rather than clean perfect fifths as is the case with the violin. Whereas violinists are for the most part limited to technical changes to change their tone, electric guitarists have those mechanical choices in addition to control over their pickup selection, their potentiometers, and a virtually limitless selection of devices by which to alter their signal before it ever hits an amplifier. A violin is a far more limited instrument.


No it is not. You can pluck strings on a Violin and you can bow strings on a guitar. There's a violin already out with frets but most violins are like a fretless guitar.

Violins (In standard) are tuned G, D, A, E. Guitars (In standard) are tuned E, A, D, G, B, E. Notice that now, quite similar, different voicings.

No, again if you want, we will compare electric violins to electric guitars. Not electric guitars to acoustic violins. You have the wood that affects both, the bow affects the violins tone, the tuning pegs affect the tone, the finger board affects the tone for both, construction affects both. Electric violins still have potentiometers that affect things, you can place the pick up where ever you want (On acoustic violins it's easier to shift a mic, just like an acoustic guitar). Guitar effects work to for a Violin chained into a signal path. They might not sound as great but they still do. Guitarists in the 70's and 80's loved to use rack gear ment for other instruments to achieve new sounds. Ratt's song "Body Talk", the intro is used with a reverb rack mount unit ment for vocalist. You just have to do more searching like they did.

Still no, for the most part. Electric violins tend to use piezo pickups, which are very different from magnetic pups. The array of choices for piezoelectric signal modification is far more limited because of the popularity of magnetic pups. Most effects can be used with piezo pups, but usually you have to be a lot more sparing in their application because they aren't designed for that application. It's similar to how you can apply guitar effects to a bass guitar, but they are designed for different frequency ranges, so the effect is more limited because it's outside of its native frequency range.


You can get custom made pick ups, don't be cheap when it comes to tone.

What I put in bold you stated it works, so therefore they are pretty equal if not more. Refer to my paragraph above about that.

I was using a totum pro parte synedoche to indicate that most metal guitarists don't have good phrasing, then indicated a number of guitarists, most of whom are not exclusively (if at all) limited to the metal genre. Those guitarists are all good examples of musicians who understand phrasing and write effective solos. The majority of metal guitarists do not have this skill (ability, technique, call it what you will, though the meaning is the same).


Again you are arguing your point from the wrong side. In your last post you were trying to say it was the style that caused it and then changed to it's the player and now you are trying to argue it's the player and not the style. You are saying guitarists without a broad range of influences are not as effective. Stick to one point, and only mention the other side if it helps your point. You have effectively ruined your point within all these posts. Nice try.

Lick based playing is taking a preprepared series of notes and using them in a modular fashion. It's essentially a paint-by-the-numbers method of playing. Licks are fine for improvising, but when you sit down and write a solo, you're better off not using licks, since that imposes needless limits on your expression. You seem to be thinking purely in terms of improvising whereas I'm talking about solos in general, be it composed or improvised. In either situation, if you've got a good sense of melody and phrasing, it's better to rely on that rather than licks to fill out your solos.


Again you did not read and comprehend. You can change a lick so many ways, you could change almost everything about it and it becomes something new in the sense with the muscule memory already engraved into your fingers. Jason Becker was largely lick based, he had developed so many licks and knew how to form them into something new radically with ease and the muscule memory still there. Perputaul Burn is a good example, it is largely the same licks you can see repeat with many variations, or repeat in his other pieces. The arppegiated section at the start is largely the same with a few changes. Amazing how that small change can work quite well in the expression of sound.

Even guitarists that are not famous have this apporach. Ever go to an open mic and hear some of the blues guitarists go on? They take the same lick and change it up to make an extenstion of what they are playing.

Same thing when you take a square and do not connect the fourth point. You only connect three points to form a closed polygon. You now have a triangle. Different but similar to a square. Same with a lick you change up, similar but different.

At this point, I think you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. This is way off topic and I think TS's question has been answered pretty thoroughly.


If you think this why you do reply? Are you arguing for the sake of arguing?
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#28
I think you may be mistaking my point. It looks like you're arguing that vibrato is a more difficult skill than fretting a note (which I agree with wholeheartedly). I'm arguing that fretting a note is a more fundamental skill that is more important because it is a prerequisite for just about every other technique.

Hope that clears everything up so that we can lay this one to rest.
#29
Quote by Geldin
I think you may be mistaking my point. It looks like you're arguing that vibrato is a more difficult skill than fretting a note (which I agree with wholeheartedly). I'm arguing that fretting a note is a more fundamental skill that is more important because it is a prerequisite for just about every other technique.

Hope that clears everything up so that we can lay this one to rest.


Congrats, (I assume) you have sat down, thought, dissected, and interpreted the subject, points, and arguments. I applaud you.


Now lets let this philosophy die and enjoy some guitar.

Cheers,
Xter
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#30
Quote by Facecut
Thats an assumption of someone who has no overview of the degree of difficulty. I don´t think it´s harder than symphony x solos and those are playable if challenging with a reasonable amount of gain. This guy uses a tone that plays by itself, he doesn´t even need his right hand other than muting, breathing on the strings is probably enough for that processor-based chemo distortion through emgs and an insane amount of gain.


Preferring a different tone does not make you better than him. Symphony X songs are bloody difficult, don't even try to cheapen that by saying 'LOLZ YOU USE TOO MUCH GAIN FOR IT TO BE HARD'.
#31
Agreed. That tapping bit in Sea of Lies is stupidly difficult to perform. I think my lead guitar tone is better than Romeo's, but he is a vastly superior player to me technically speaking. With that much gain, the skill at muting that you'd need to have to play his tapping patterns cleanly is ludicrous, never mind the dexterity necessary to hit the right notes in the right order. Besides that, his tone isn't all that distorted. There's a lot of signal compression going on, but his tone isn't particularly raggedy (for lack of a better word), which is a sound that is definitely associated with high gain situations.
#32
Quote by CelestialGuitar
Preferring a different tone does not make you better than him. Symphony X songs are bloody difficult, don't even try to cheapen that by saying 'LOLZ YOU USE TOO MUCH GAIN FOR IT TO BE HARD'.


Read again I never said symphony x solos are easy, I said this stuff isn´t harder, especially with that "easy-mode" tone. I was being a little bit polemic and emotional about his tone to make a strong statement because I really hate it.
#33
Quote by Geldin
Agreed. That tapping bit in Sea of Lies is stupidly difficult to perform. I think my lead guitar tone is better than Romeo's, but he is a vastly superior player to me technically speaking. With that much gain, the skill at muting that you'd need to have to play his tapping patterns cleanly is ludicrous, never mind the dexterity necessary to hit the right notes in the right order. Besides that, his tone isn't all that distorted. There's a lot of signal compression going on, but his tone isn't particularly raggedy (for lack of a better word), which is a sound that is definitely associated with high gain situations.


Never said anything about Romeo. I love his playing. If his tone on the early records isn´t the best (still no comparison to the sound in this video) it doesn´t matter because he phrases great which is much more important. A great player will always sound good, even if using a crappy setup.
Last edited by Facecut at Feb 21, 2012,
#34
Quote by Facecut
Read again I never said symphony x solos are easy, I said this stuff isn´t harder, especially with that "easy-mode" tone. I was being a little bit polemic and emotional about his tone to make a strong statement because I really hate it.


It's not an easy mode tone, though. If anything, bad playing becomes even more easy to spot with mountains of distortion. Besides, if it works, who cares if it's easy? Guitar playing is about making things easy and manageable, if it sounds good, it is good, and that guy's fast passages sounded good to me, and, if I checked correctly, it sounded good enough to attract around 750000 viewers.
#35
Quote by CelestialGuitar
It's not an easy mode tone, though. If anything, bad playing becomes even more easy to spot with mountains of distortion. Besides, if it works, who cares if it's easy? Guitar playing is about making things easy and manageable, if it sounds good, it is good, and that guy's fast passages sounded good to me, and, if I checked correctly, it sounded good enough to attract around 750000 viewers.


Because in my opinion it is seductive for beginners and intermediate guitar players to use a tone that lets you play with less effort to attract more viewers while sacrificing transparence and beauty. This is by no means a "feel vs speed" statement, those are usually made by players that have neither. It is about improving in all dimensions equally, technique, phrasing, tone, repertoire etc. I think this guy neglected tone and phrasing and needs some catching up. If it sounds good to you there you go, enjoy. If this guy phrased well I would excuse him no matter how bad his sound was.
#36
Quote by Facecut
Never said anything about Romeo. I love his playing. If his tone on the early records isn´t the best (still no comparison to the sound in this video) it doesn´t matter because he phrases great which is much more important. A great player will always sound good, even if had a crappy setup.

...in my opinion it is seductive for beginners and intermediate guitar players to use a tone that lets you play with less effort to attract more viewers while sacrificing transparence and beauty.

The point still stands that there is no such thing as an "easy mode" tone. There can be a ton of compression on in a signal path, but that means that every little sound is going to be sounded pretty loudly unless the guitarist is very good about keeping that noise muted to a minimum.

I've seen a lot of beginner guitarists not know how to work their gain knobs and apply far more than they need, but here's something I've noticed: good tones are usually easier to manage for guitarists. Now, given that tone is subjective, that's not always true, but in my experience, most of the tones I've dialed in that I like a lot are also the tons that are easiest to manage in terms of dynamics and muting.
Last edited by Geldin at Feb 21, 2012,
#37
geldin... sigh

sometimes i really like your posts, and other times I think you are lying to make yourself seem like you have more experience than you do. Sometimes you claim to be a guitar teacher with musical theory knowledge, then you bring up modes...
other times you claim to have played an instrument such as the violin, yet you claim violin doesnt need vibrato and baroque composers hated it...
And to say fretting properly is the best technique on guitar, why would you even say that? That is what you learn on the first day, I know we are supposed to help beginners but... how to fret the guitar? heres a book on it:

Step 1: Put hand on guitar, thumb centered as much as possible on back neck.
Step 2: Use fingers tips and curled fingers to press the note/string you want.
end.

Like I said, I really like some of your posts, but sometimes I think you want credit for things you don't know about, Xter and you always get into it, and from an educated musicians perspective, Xter is usually always right...
#38
Quote by Geldin
The point still stands that there is no such thing as an "easy mode" tone. There can be a ton of compression on in a signal path, but that means that every little sound is going to be sounded pretty loudly unless the guitarist is very good about keeping that noise muted to a minimum.

I've seen a lot of beginner guitarists not know how to work their gain knobs and apply far more than they need, but here's something I've noticed: good tones are usually easier to manage for guitarists. Now, given that tone is subjective, that's not always true, but in my experience, most of the tones I've dialed in that I like a lot are also the tons that are easiest to manage in terms of dynamics and muting.


I used a tone of that kind until I maybe played for about 6 years so I know what I am talking about. I realised that I was cheating on myself because when I switched to a reasonable non-chemo tone with some balls I had to relearn a lot of stuff. My whole tapping and legato technique was based on easy-mode tone with good muting. My weaknesses where masked behind a thick wall of chemo distortion. I thought I was really good back then but could only play stuff like in that video with my own setup which equals a very bad player. Better to realise it earlier than me I think.
#39
Quote by hansome21

Step 1: Put hand on guitar, thumb centered as much as possible on back neck.
Step 2: Use fingers tips and curled fingers to press the note/string you want.
end.


Kind of proving Geldins point here:-)
Last edited by Facecut at Feb 21, 2012,
#40
Quote by Facecut
Kind of proving Geldins point here:-)


Step one to that is posture.

Step two, even Geldin said in his last post to the argument that it is a fundamental skill to other techniques therefore he agreed his point invalid.

You can't interchange skill and technique in that statement like it was tried before. That's like saying "The fundamental technique to writing is holding a pencil". It's a posture that enacts it rather then an actual technique.

Simple, yes. No more long posts.
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