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#1
Ok, first of all, IMHO and according to all the knowledge I have of music, yes, I know triads are chords. This is just a thread to incite a little (healthy) discussion... hehehe

A few years back, while I was studyin in a conservatory, I had to take a "Jazz Harmony" class (mandatory, as I had a scholarship), although I prefered the "Traditional Harmony" class.

During one of the lessons, the teacher stated that "Triads cannot be considered chords. They are far too simplistic, do no establish tonality, and are stylistically outdated".
This of course led to a raging debate, and to a lot of people calling the teacher an idiot.

What is your opinion? What would be your reaction?
Quote by Xiaoxi
The Byzantine scale was useful until the Ottoman scale came around and totally annihilated it.
Last edited by mrkeka at Feb 16, 2012,
#2
3 or more different notes played at the same are a chord so yes? That's as far as my theory goes.
Hey there.
#4
Quote by mrkeka
Ok, first of all, IMHO and according to all the knowledge I have of music, yes, I know triads are chords. This is just a thread to incite a little (healthy) discussion... hehehe

A few years back, while I was studyin in a conservatory, I had to take a "Jazz Harmony" class (mandatory, as I had a scholarship), although I prefered the "Traditional Harmony" class.

In one of these classes, the teacher stated that "Triads cannot be considered chords. They are far too simplistic, do no establish tonality, and are stylistically outdated".
This of course led to a raging debate, and to a lot of people calling the teacher an idiot.

What is your opinion? What would be your reaction?



My guess is that this can only lead to an unhealthy discussion.
shred is gaudy music
#6
So all those major open chords I've been playing aren't actually chords?!

That's dumb.
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#9
This teacher sounds like an incredibly pretentious musician with his/her head up their ass about what music "should" be.
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#10
Quote by Jehannum
The teacher was an idiot.

... and most probably still is.
#11
Triads are chords, but then again, how often do you see plain old triads in jazz?
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#12
If your teach thinks a triad doesn't establish tonality, he should be fired and then stabbed in the balls, in either order.
#13
Quote by rockingamer2
Triads are chords, but then again, how often do you see plain old triads in jazz?

All the time.
#14
lol i don't think there's any discussion to be had here
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#15
Quote by mrkeka
.....[ ].... This is just a thread to incite a little (healthy) discussion... hehehe
The "incitement of healthy discussion" is sometimes, (somewhat callously, IMO), unfairly referred to as, "trolling"........
#16
Quote by mrkeka
Ok, first of all, IMHO and according to all the knowledge I have of music, yes, I know triads are chords. This is just a thread to incite a little (healthy) discussion... hehehe

A few years back, while I was studyin in a conservatory, I had to take a "Jazz Harmony" class (mandatory, as I had a scholarship), although I prefered the "Traditional Harmony" class.

During one of the lessons, the teacher stated that "Triads cannot be considered chords. They are far too simplistic, do no establish tonality, and are stylistically outdated".
This of course led to a raging debate, and to a lot of people calling the teacher an idiot.

What is your opinion? What would be your reaction?


Your teacher's an idiot in my opinion. Don't listen to them.

Best,

Sean
#17
Instead of being a dick, I'll actually refute the teacher's oh so brilliant points.

1. "They are far to simplistic."
The definition of a chord (3 or more tones sounded simultaneously), doesn't say anything about meeting a certain level of complexity.
2. "They do not establish tonality."
They do indeed establish tonality, but the definition of a chord does not have this requirement anyway.
3. "They are stylistically outdated"
That's weird, because almost every song I've heard in my life has them, not that the definition says anything about cultural relevance.

In other words, stab him in the balls.
#18
Quote by Sean0913
Your teacher's an idiot in my opinion. Don't listen to them.

Best,

Sean


I never did... this happened a couple of years ago
I just saw this discussion in another forum and got curious if anyone around here had that (misguided, I think) opinion... seems like I'm really not alone

He uttered other pearls of wisdom in class, just as "good" as that one
Quote by Xiaoxi
The Byzantine scale was useful until the Ottoman scale came around and totally annihilated it.
#19
Can one chord, that has more notes than a triad, establish tonality? No.
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#20
Quote by mrkeka
I never did... this happened a couple of years ago
I just saw this discussion in another forum and got curious if anyone around here had that (misguided, I think) opinion... seems like I'm really not alone

He uttered other pearls of wisdom in class, just as "good" as that one
What's the old axiom? Oh yeah right, "those that can't, teach".

Before that remark creates a furor, it obviously doesn't apply to every teacher, or even the majority.
#21
Quote by Captaincranky
What's the old axiom? Oh yeah right, "those that can't, teach".

Before that remark creates a furor, it obviously doesn't apply to every teacher, or even the majority.


And those who can't teach, teach gym
Quote by Xiaoxi
The Byzantine scale was useful until the Ottoman scale came around and totally annihilated it.
#23
dyads are not. triads are.

your teacher is an idiot.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#24
Traditional harmony does a much better job of establishing tonality than a progression littered with extensions, especially when the extensions aren't properly resolved.

I find a lot of the time people want to use lots of 'flavors' in their progressions and stick 3 extensions on top of every chord, yet can't use a suspension, appoggiatura or passing note in a harmonic context.
#30
Quote by DiminishedFifth
****, any chord would do that easily


so with absolutely no other context, a C major triad played once indicates the key of C major?
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#31
Quote by AeolianWolf
so with absolutely no other context, a C major triad played once indicates the key of C major?

No, but it definitely doesn't imply any sort of mode or atonality. I'm not saying it indicates a key, but it definitely would imply one. Even if that was the only thing played the entire time was one C Major triad.
#32
So what's this guy's email so I can send him scat porn?

I mean, where do I even start?

Not only does he get the whole triads = chords thing wrong, his entire foundation of music is wrong. Not different, WRONG.

Not only do you not need a chord to do any of those 3 things, you don't even need a dyad. You can do all three things (establish tonality, generate complexity, and sound modern) with just single fucking notes!

He must have missed the very first stop on the music train...you know, the stop where harmony is an abstraction that exists separately from physical realizations of chords? Apparently he has never heard of Bach's monophonic instrumental pieces, such as the partitas for solo violin or flute. Gee, I don't hear a single damn chord in these pieces, Bach must not be tonal!

Far too simplistic? Yeah, I guess it is pretty limiting when you have no fucking understanding of how they work or what their potentials are. I'm sorry, but you just cannot argue that harmonic motion based on triadic harmony, ie tonal counterpoint, is simplistic. People spend entire lives trying to grasp this concept. He is not one of them, for his knowledge is so puny and pathetic that it's not even in the same ballpark yet.

Stylistically outdated? Ah, it all makes sense now. He has never heard any music, ever.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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Last edited by Xiaoxi at Feb 17, 2012,
#36
Quote by Xiaoxi
So what's this guy's email so I can send him scat porn?

I mean, where do I even start?

Not only does he get the whole triads = chords thing wrong, his entire foundation of music is wrong. Not different, WRONG.

Not only do you not need a chord to do any of those 3 things, you don't even need a dyad. You can do all three things (establish tonality, generate complexity, and sound modern) with just single fucking notes!

He must have missed the very first stop on the music train...you know, the stop where harmony is an abstraction that exists separately from physical realizations of chords? Apparently he has never heard of Bach's monophonic instrumental pieces, such as the partitas for solo violin or flute. Gee, I don't hear a single damn chord in these pieces, Bach must not be tonal!

Far too simplistic? Yeah, I guess it is pretty limiting when you have no fucking understanding of how they work or what their potentials are. I'm sorry, but you just cannot argue that harmonic motion based on triadic harmony, ie tonal counterpoint, is simplistic. People spend entire lives trying to grasp this concept. He is not one of them, for his knowledge is so puny and pathetic that it's not even in the same ballpark yet.

Stylistically outdated? Ah, it all makes sense now. He has never heard any music, ever.


Ok, I'm gonna have to find his e-mail for you Xiaoxi... haven't seen or heard from/of him in years, but scat porn... damn, that's a good idea!

And your argument is similar to what I asked him... I asked him if polyphonic choirs and Bach's solo pieces, such as the Cello Suites did not have an implied harmony... his answer was one of his best "pearls of wisdom"
He asked me if I knew the date of Bach's death... I said it was in 1750... he replied "He died over 250 years ago... do you think his music is still relevant to us?"
Then I stood up and left the class, along with a couple other people.
Quote by Xiaoxi
The Byzantine scale was useful until the Ottoman scale came around and totally annihilated it.
#38
Quote by Matt.Guitar
Lmao if what you're saying is true that teacher is an idiot!


This is a true story (but I shall resist the temptation of using a meme to say it) and he is indeed an idiot.

What saddens / scares me is that to this day, people prefer going to his class than to the traditional harmony class, whose teacher is a lot more qualified and a much better musicians. In fact, a lot of his ideas are very similar to Xiaoxi's.

And I find a little ironic, given the stereotypes, that the idiotic jazz harmony teacher is a pianist, and the tradional harmony teacher is a rock guitar player, who advocates the study of Mozart, Bach and others more than anything else.
Quote by Xiaoxi
The Byzantine scale was useful until the Ottoman scale came around and totally annihilated it.
#40
I can post a link to the myspace page of the traditional harmnoy teacher's band... if that's not against the rules or anything... it's some pretty experimental stuff, I just don't like their singer
Quote by Xiaoxi
The Byzantine scale was useful until the Ottoman scale came around and totally annihilated it.
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