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#1
Sheet music can be found here: http://www.learnclassicalguitar.com/free-guitar-lesson.html


First off, I have learned the piece and have wrote out some theory, however I know I am wrong on some of it, so I'll write it out and you can guys can help me where I have went wrong.


The whole piece is arpeggios, so we'll say that first. It's in G major and it's in 12/8.


I'll write the bar number, then the chord, then its roman numeral.


SECTION 1

Bar 1 - G - I

Bar 2 - F#dim - viio

Bar 3 - F/G - vii/I

Bar 4 - E/C - vi/IV

Bar 5 - Eb7 - bVI7

Bar 6 - D/G - v/I

Bar 7 - D7 - V7

Bar 8 - G - I


This repeats.

SECTION 2

Bar 9 - B/G7 - iii/I7

Bar 10 - B/G#dim - io

Bar 11 - Am - ii

Bar 12 - E - VI

Bar 13 - Am - ii

Bar 14 - Gm6sus2 - i6sus2

Bar 15 - F - bVII

Bar 16 - Dm - v

Bar 17 - A - II

Bar 18 - D7 - V

Bar 19 - Ebdim7 - bvio7

Bar 20 - D/G - v/I

Bar 21 - C - IV

Bar 22 - D/G - v/I

Bar 23 - D7 - V

Bar 24 - G - I

This repeats also. End.

I know some of that is wrong, so if you guys can help me, then we could go over chord functions, which I understand a bit better than this.
#2
Second chord is actually D7, but it does contain an F#dim triad. If you ever run into anything where there seems to be a wholestep/halfstep in the voicing, move the notes around a few octaves and eventually you'll end up getting a consistent root position voicing so you can accurately describe the chord.

This chord is in first inversion though, as the 2nd note in the chord is in the bass. I don't have time to go through everything as much as I would like to, and I'm already doing a shit load of this in my music theory class, but thought I'd try to help a little bit.
#3
Quote by Life Is Brutal
Second chord is actually D7, but it does contain an F#dim triad. If you ever run into anything where there seems to be a wholestep/halfstep in the voicing, move the notes around a few octaves and eventually you'll end up getting a consistent root position voicing so you can accurately describe the chord.

This chord is in first inversion though, as the 2nd note in the chord is in the bass. I don't have time to go through everything as much as I would like to, and I'm already doing a shit load of this in my music theory class, but thought I'd try to help a little bit.



That first paragraph is great man, thanks for that, however, does this mean I might be wrong on its function? Like your saying the 2nd chord is D7(2nd Inversion), but then the chord in the next bar is . . .actually. The next chord could be an inverted G7.


Shit just got real.


EDIT: so now I'm thinking it's G, D7(second inversion), G7 (4th inversion) then it's a C (second inversion)

There's a I, then V, then I7 then IV. D7 is a v/v and G7 acts like a V to C.


All in four bars. Am I right/wrong? this is crazy.
Last edited by rocknrollstar at Feb 16, 2012,
#4
Quote by rocknrollstar
That first paragraph is great man, thanks for that, however, does this mean I might be wrong on its function? Like your saying the 2nd chord is D7(2nd Inversion), but then the chord in the next bar is . . .actually. The next chord could be an inverted G7.


Shit just got real.


Nope, 2nd bar is D7 first inversion. Root position -> First Inv. -> Second Inv. -> ...

The next chord is G7 in Third Inversion, and therefore its function changes. The function for your second chord is V7, and the G7 would be I7.

Then the next chord is C, first inversion, which is IV.

And the next chord is Eb7, so that functions as an VI7, which is really strange.

It can be explained through roman numerals, but its not diatonic to the key at all, and the only reason I think it could be there is because it might be a secondary dominant, but I forget exactly how they function.

Regardless, it then goes back into Gmaj.
Last edited by Life Is Brutal at Feb 16, 2012,
#5
Quote by Life Is Brutal
Nope, 2nd bar is D7 first inversion. Root position -> First Inv. -> Second Inv. -> ...

The next chord is G7 in Third Inversion, and therefore its function changes. The function for your second chord is V7, and the G7 would be I7.

Then the next chord is C, first inversion, which is IV.

And the next chord is Eb7, so that functions as an VI7, which is really strange.

It can be explained through roman numerals, but its not diatonic to the key at all, and the only reason I think it could be there is because it might be a secondary dominant, but I forget exactly how they function.

Regardless, it then goes back into Gmaj.



Sorry that's what I meant, I counted the notes wrong for some reason, blame the 4 hours sleep.


So how does this sound good then? I mean its all over the place. Due to the inversions I see a sort of halfstep descending bassline, and the fact that D7 appears a few times I guess sort of gives the G a "home" feel, but on paper it seems very loose, but when played it sounds very simple. Minus the Eb7 I didn't think it sounded too crazy.


Now I don't know what to think. Diabelli be trollin man.
#8
Standard tuning, although tuning is irrelevant when dealing with sheet music. As long as your instrument encompasses the notes needed, you can tune it however you want. You should also use the sheet music when doing this analysis, as it will help you if you ever want to analyze something that isn't already tabbed.

Analyze the notes that are used, check for triads. If it has 3 notes that are each a third/fifth apart it can probably be described in roman numeral analysis.

Your analysis so far is good, but you have a lot of redundancy in how you named the chords.

You should probably learn how to build Major-Minor 7th chords, also know as Dominant 7th chords, as thats where your main errors are. Like bar 14 for example, you said the chord was "Gm6sus2 - i6sus2", when its actually C7 second inversion.

DO NOT BASE THE CHORD YOU'RE ANALYZING FROM THE BASS NOTE.

Chances are that once you get into more "Developed" music, the bass note will no longer be the root of the chord, and instead it will be part of an inversion. You will still see plenty of root position chords, but you have to be aware of this.

Do you know how to build triads in any key signature? (Tell me your chordal knowledge)
#9
Quote by Life Is Brutal
Standard tuning, although tuning is irrelevant when dealing with sheet music. As long as your instrument encompasses the notes needed, you can tune it however you want. You should also use the sheet music when doing this analysis, as it will help you if you ever want to analyze something that isn't already tabbed.

Analyze the notes that are used, check for triads. If it has 3 notes that are each a third/fifth apart it can probably be described in roman numeral analysis.

Your analysis so far is good, but you have a lot of redundancy in how you named the chords.

You should probably learn how to build Major-Minor 7th chords, also know as Dominant 7th chords, as thats where your main errors are. Like bar 14 for example, you said the chord was "Gm6sus2 - i6sus2", when its actually C7 second inversion.

DO NOT BASE THE CHORD YOU'RE ANALYZING FROM THE BASS NOTE.

Chances are that once you get into more "Developed" music, the bass note will no longer be the root of the chord, and instead it will be part of an inversion. You will still see plenty of root position chords, but you have to be aware of this.

Do you know how to build triads in any key signature? (Tell me your chordal knowledge)



Without being big-headed, my theory is pretty good (usually lol). This song has threw me because I've not had much experience with inversions before (I know what they are, but I've never seen them applied so much before) and my diminished naming chords may be slightly off, I'm unsure.


Chordal knowledge, well if it's a major scale, the chords are - I ii iii IV V vi viio

so if we are in G that would be G, Am, Bm, C, D, Em, F#dim


if it is a minor scale, the chords are i iio III iv v VI VII

in Gm that would be Gm, Adim, Bb, Cm, Dm, Eb, F


Making chords is just scale degrees so 1 3 5 = major, 1 b3 5 = minor. Sus2 = 1 2 5, sus 4 = 1 4 5


Add extensions accordingly, the 7th must always be there if the chord is going to have a 9th, 11th or 13th in it. The 5th may be removed from an extended chord.


I think my problem is I don't notice inversions, they're strange to me probably because they're not in most music I listen to, however I'm changing that. Based on what I've said I think study of inversions would suit me best. What do you think I should do?
#10
The chord in the second bar is a D7/F#, it's a V7 in the first inversion
G/F works as a V7/IV, it's the dominant of the fourth degree, which is the next chord, the C/E... The thing with the Eb on the bass also acts as a Dominant, I would guess it functions as a rootless A7b5b9, but if that was the case, it would resolve to D... it actually resolves to a second inversion of G, G/D, which can be considered a cadential chord (prepares the introduction of the V7 for the cadence), then the V7 and the I
It's late and I'm tired, so I might have skipped or said something wrong
Quote by Xiaoxi
The Byzantine scale was useful until the Ottoman scale came around and totally annihilated it.
#11
Look at all the notes, realize what they are, and organize them into chords.

Suppose that we were to look at the score, and Eb, C, Bb, G were our notes. How do you arrange these notes to make a proper chord?

C major is C, E, G, so you should quickly be able to realize that the Eb is the third, and since it is lowered, it creates C minor. Since Bb-C is so close together, we can invert the major second into a minor 7th. This gives us a stack of m3, M3, m3 from C, which is a Cm chord with a m7 extension. Therefore, the chord is Cm7.

Honestly, the only way you can get better at this is to keep analyzing and continue doing this. Also, it helps if you look at the sheet music rather than the tabs, as you can more easily see the thirds and rearrange octaves.

For instance, if I had a chord like B, D, F, G in ascending order, I would quickly drop the G down an octave and realize that its a 7th chord from G, which diatonically is G7. But, had I have not done that, I may have gotten something like Bdimadd6 or something like that. While they're the same notes, its much easier to describe the functioning progression with the G7 than the Bdimadd6.
#12
Quote by Life Is Brutal
Look at all the notes, realize what they are, and organize them into chords.

Suppose that we were to look at the score, and Eb, C, Bb, G were our notes. How do you arrange these notes to make a proper chord?

C major is C, E, G, so you should quickly be able to realize that the Eb is the third, and since it is lowered, it creates C minor. Since Bb-C is so close together, we can invert the major second into a minor 7th. This gives us a stack of m3, M3, m3 from C, which is a Cm chord with a m7 extension. Therefore, the chord is Cm7.

Honestly, the only way you can get better at this is to keep analyzing and continue doing this. Also, it helps if you look at the sheet music rather than the tabs, as you can more easily see the thirds and rearrange octaves.

For instance, if I had a chord like B, D, F, G in ascending order, I would quickly drop the G down an octave and realize that its a 7th chord from G, which diatonically is G7. But, had I have not done that, I may have gotten something like Bdimadd6 or something like that. While they're the same notes, its much easier to describe the functioning progression with the G7 than the Bdimadd6.



Yeah I always use sheet music when doing this sort of thing. Mainly because there's no guess work, tabs are a bit in the air, but sheet music is solid.


I see what you mean, I guess it's just a mindset thing. What I usually play is from the more popular music realm and rarely do diminished chords and inversions come into play (last song I played with a diminished chord was a Depeche Mode song)


I know it sounds stupid, but I almost didn't think you could rearrange the notes you know? Like I always presumed I always started on the bass note (which is weird cause in melodies I rarely do) so this is very strange, but cool. I like the fact I've possibly just opened up a whole new way or writing.


Is there any other pieces I could analyze that have the answers elsewhere, so I could do the analysis and then check the answers? I will re-do the analysis of this piece tomorrow since its now 2.30am here.
#14
Quote by Life Is Brutal
No idea man, but if you could find more pieces akin to the one above, those should work well. Analyze anything you see the sheet music to.



I guess so man. The fun never stops lol. I like the idea of inversions though, first thing I've noticed is what they allow the bass line to do something different rather than root noting along with the guitar.


I'll be interested in looking into more popular music that uses inversions, maybe some of my favourite songs have them, but I've never noticed them before you know?


I've also decided that this is how McCartney gets such distinctive bass lines in the Beatles.


The plot thickens.
#15
Scanned through these posts and saw no mention of the augmented 6th chord, shame on you all.

G: I

Vb

Vd/IV

IVb

German6th

Ic

V7

I

I'll do the rest tomorrow
Last edited by griffRG7321 at Feb 16, 2012,
#16
Quote by griffRG7321
Scanned through these posts and saw no mention of the augmented 6th chord, shame on you all.

Analysis stuff

I'll do the rest tomorrow


I only did the first 5 bars or so, and the strangest chord was the VI7, or the "German 6th" As you call it.
#18
Quote by griffRG7321
The german 6th is a type of augmented 6th chord.

And Eb G B C# isn't a 7th chord


I don't see where your getting those notes from, of course it isn't a 7th chord. Where the hell did you pull those notes out of?

C, Eb, G, B is though, which I stated above.

And Bar 5 is definitely a VI7, which I'm guessing can be referred to as a German 6th.
#19
Quote by Life Is Brutal
Where the hell did you pull those notes out of?

Bar 5 is definitely a VI7


C# =/= Db!
#20
Hey Griff, what's a German sixth? I've never heard that term, now I'm curious
Quote by Xiaoxi
The Byzantine scale was useful until the Ottoman scale came around and totally annihilated it.
#21
Quote by griffRG7321
C# =/= Db!


I don't see what you're getting at, although I see now that the chord is either a D#7 or Eb7 in bar 5, which is either #V7 or bVI7. Its probably the latter.

Also, explain where you got those notes earlier.
#22
The chord in bar 5 is Eb G Bb C# which is an augmented 6th. It's enharmonic to a dominant 7th, but it functions differently. you'd notate it as Gr6.

The notes are from the chord in bar 5!
#23
The german 6th is a type of augmented 6th chord.

And Eb G B C# isn't a 7th chord


You missed the Bb, so I was like wut.

Ok, so agreed that its enharmonic to a Dom7, but functions as what is known as a German 6th. So is a German 6th akin to a bVI7, essentially? Obviously I should notate it as a Gr6 if needed, but I'm first going to realize that its shaped as a dominant 7th.
#24
POSTING FOR JAZZROCKFEEL AS HE IS TEH BANANNED.

First section:
Bar 1) I
2) V6/5
3) V4/2 / IV (this is called an elision, when you take out the expected resolution, which would be to I, and put in a new tonicizing chord)
4) IV
5) German augmented 6th chord (it's not actually a bVI7 chord, that C# is meant to be C# not Db. I can explain the voice-leading of the Ger augmented if anybody in the thread wants it)
6) I 6/4 (this is called a cadential 6/4 chord as it usually comes right before a cadence, as in this example)
7) V7
8) I


Second section:

9) V6/5 / IV
10) V4/3 / ii (another elision)
11) ii6
12) V / ii
13) ii
14) V/VII
15) VII (he borrows the VII from the parallel minor)
16) This chord I'm actually unsure, it's the minor v, I'm not exactly sure how it's functioning without hearing it.
17) V / V
18) V
19) viio / vi
20) vi
21) IV
22) I6/4
23) V7
24) I


He also says you should focus on function.
#25
Wow, that's awesome. I've been studying this on and off all day, but this helps big time.


V6/5 - Does this notate an inversion I take it? I don't know how to correctly notate an inversion, I'm presuming there is a correct way that applies to all instruments?


This definition of elision, can I provide an example to ensure I understand it correctly?


G7>A rather than C. So A would be classed as an elision correct?


By function do you mean Tonic, Supertonic etc etc along with the Roman numerals?


Also I'll take all explanations, so how a German 6th is formed would interest me greatly if JazzRockFeel would be kind enough to explain.
#26
Yeah, I'd also love to get the explanation about the German 6th
Quote by Xiaoxi
The Byzantine scale was useful until the Ottoman scale came around and totally annihilated it.
#27
Quote by rocknrollstar
Wow, that's awesome. I've been studying this on and off all day, but this helps big time.


V6/5 - Does this notate an inversion I take it? I don't know how to correctly notate an inversion, I'm presuming there is a correct way that applies to all instruments?


This definition of elision, can I provide an example to ensure I understand it correctly?


G7>A rather than C. So A would be classed as an elision correct?


By function do you mean Tonic, Supertonic etc etc along with the Roman numerals?


Also I'll take all explanations, so how a German 6th is formed would interest me greatly if JazzRockFeel would be kind enough to explain.


By 6/5 hes denoting a type of figured bass for 7th chords, if I recall correctly. Its been awhile since I've had to notate 7th chord inversions.

For triads, root position is denoted as 5/3, first inversion as 6/3, and second inversion as 6/4.

For seventh chords,
root position = 7
1st Inversion = 6/5
2nd Inversion = 4/3
3rd Inversion = 4/2


Since these inversions are unique to seventh chords, you don't have to indicate that it is a seventh chord, since its implied.

What do you mean by elision? I've never heard that word before.

I think he means by function, a better understanding of how things, well, function in a harmonic context such as this.

A German sixth seems to be an enharmonic to a dominant 7th chord, but it is used on a b6 scale degree. I don't quite know its use, but I'm looking it up ATM.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augmented_sixth_chord
Last edited by Life Is Brutal at Feb 17, 2012,
#28
Quote by Life Is Brutal
By 6/5 hes denoting a type of figured bass for 7th chords, if I recall correctly. Its been awhile since I've had to notate 7th chord inversions.

For triads, root position is denoted as 5/3, first inversion as 6/3, and second inversion as 6/4.

For seventh chords,


Since these inversions are unique to seventh chords, you don't have to indicate that it is a seventh chord, since its implied.

What do you mean by elision? I've never heard that word before.

I think he means by function, a better understanding of how things, well, function in a harmonic context such as this.

A German sixth seems to be an enharmonic to a dominant 7th chord, but it is used on a b6 scale degree. I don't quite know its use, but I'm looking it up ATM.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augmented_sixth_chord



Thanks for the inversions, I'll repeat that and start using it to notate them. Just to clarify, a C major in second inversion would be notated as C6/4 ?


JazzRockFeel used the word elision, when the expected resolution is changed to a new chord. It was in the post I quoted.


Currently reading the 6ths article.
#29
MOAR WIZDOM FROM JRF!

Okay, a follow up. Elision is basically a word my theory professor possibly made up in this context, but it works. Basically what it means is when you have a dominant function chord and instead of resolving it in the expected manner you move to ANOTHER DOMINANT FUNCTION chord. For example, it's commonly seen in something like I - V7 - V7 / IV (notice that this is the I chord, with a b7 added) - IV Instead of resolving the V7 to I, you elide the resolution and move to another dominant function chord (the V7 / IV in my example.

By function I mean you should look at how the chords are working in the sense of tonic/subdominant/dominant. Notice how I used V / x a lot? That's what I mean by function. GBDF isn't the I7 chord, it's the V7 / IV. Tonal music is always interpreted in the progression from tonic - (subdominant) - dominant - tonic.

Basically, an augmented sixth chord is a chord that comes about through chromatic voice leading, it doesn't exist in any diatonic key. The aug 6th chord usually leads to V. The voice leading works thusly: The bass resolves down a half step to the root of V, another voice resolves up by step to the root of V (that interval forms the augmented sixth, in this example the Eb in the bass and C# in an upper voice). Then there's a third above the bass. Those three notes form the basis of the augmented sixth chord and is called the Italian sixth chord. With those three notes plus and augmented 4th above the bass you get a French sixth and with those three notes plus a perfect 5th above the bass you get a German sixth (fun fact: the german sixth is the only instance of composers regularly using parallel fifths in resolution).

The nature of the German sixth and a x7 chord wasn't lost on composers, fyi. A lot of interesting possibilities in modulation present themselves when you set up a German sixth and resolve it as if it was a V7 chord or the other way around.


And I regret to say that I only skimmed over the first post he wanted to make, so I didn't actually read any of the elision stuff. I have read it now, and I feel I get the concept.
#30
Quote by JRF
Okay, a follow up. Elision is basically a word my theory professor possibly made up in this context, but it works. Basically what it means is when you have a dominant function chord and instead of resolving it in the expected manner you move to ANOTHER DOMINANT FUNCTION chord. For example, it's commonly seen in something like I - V7 - V7 / IV (notice that this is the I chord, with a b7 added) - IV Instead of resolving the V7 to I, you elide the resolution and move to another dominant function chord (the V7 / IV in my example.


I, V7, V7/IV, IV
I understand this. For example it could be C, G7, C7, F.


So basically the reason it is noted as V7/IV simply states that this C7 is functioning as V to F. Correct?

Quote by JRF

By function I mean you should look at how the chords are working in the sense of tonic/subdominant/dominant. Notice how I used V / x a lot? That's what I mean by function. GBDF isn't the I7 chord, it's the V7 / IV. Tonal music is always interpreted in the progression from tonic - (subdominant) - dominant - tonic.


I understand this. Essentially everything is I, IV V and all other chords simply move to around those points. Correct? So like in C major, Dm is ii, but in a chord progression it could function as say v/V7 e.g. Dm to G7 correct?

Quote by JRF

Basically, an augmented sixth chord is a chord that comes about through chromatic voice leading, it doesn't exist in any diatonic key. The aug 6th chord usually leads to V. The voice leading works thusly: The bass resolves down a half step to the root of V, another voice resolves up by step to the root of V (that interval forms the augmented sixth, in this example the Eb in the bass and C# in an upper voice). Then there's a third above the bass. Those three notes form the basis of the augmented sixth chord and is called the Italian sixth chord. With those three notes plus and augmented 4th above the bass you get a French sixth and with those three notes plus a perfect 5th above the bass you get a German sixth (fun fact: the german sixth is the only instance of composers regularly using parallel fifths in resolution).

The nature of the German sixth and a x7 chord wasn't lost on composers, fyi. A lot of interesting possibilities in modulation present themselves when you set up a German sixth and resolve it as if it was a V7 chord or the other way around.



I get this now also, I'll get used to it by writing something and trying to incorporate those chords. When you mention the German sixth opening up modulation abilities, do you mean for example:


In C major, a Ab7 (the German 6th or Gr6 I believe?) could modulate to C#m, because they have a V to I relationship?


Also, please tell JRF that I'm really thankful for his help, and I also like to thank you Life Is Brutal as well for letting me know these things. It's really interesting and learning new chords/new ways to use them is my favourite thing about music.
#31
Quote by rocknrollstar
I, V7, V7/IV, IV
I understand this. For example it could be C, G7, C7, F.


So basically the reason it is noted as V7/IV simply states that this C7 is functioning as V to F. Correct?


I understand this. Essentially everything is I, IV V and all other chords simply move to around those points. Correct? So like in C major, Dm is ii, but in a chord progression it could function as say v/V7 e.g. Dm to G7 correct?


I get this now also, I'll get used to it by writing something and trying to incorporate those chords. When you mention the German sixth opening up modulation abilities, do you mean for example:


In C major, a Ab7 (the German 6th or Gr6 I believe?) could modulate to C#m, because they have a V to I relationship?


Also, please tell JRF that I'm really thankful for his help, and I also like to thank you Life Is Brutal as well for letting me know these things. It's really interesting and learning new chords/new ways to use them is my favourite thing about music.


Yes.

Not sure on the second thing.

The general idea is that all songs go I-IV-V in some way, or even just I-V-I, and that everything else is irrelevant and just filler.

Uhh, I don't believe the Gr6 is meant for modulation, otherwise you could just consider it a secondary dominant in the key change.

JRF has been viewing this thread, so he'll get the message.
#32
JRF's Response

So basically the reason it is noted as V7/IV simply states that this C7 is functioning as V to F. Correct?


Exactly! That's what I mean by function.


I understand this. Essentially everything is I, IV, V and all other chords simply move around those points. Correct? So like in C major, Dm is ii, but in a chord progression it could function as say v/V7


Not quite. ii most often is functioning as a subdominant chord, just like IV (they share a lot of notes). What I mean is virtually every chord (with some notable exceptions, such as the augmented sixth chords) functions as either a tonic, subdominant or dominant chord is SOME KEY. Not always the home key, but some key related to it.


I get this now also, I'll get used to it by writing something and trying to incorporate those chords. When you mention the German sixth opening up modulation abilities, do you mean for example...


Forget I said that, just get a grasp of what the augmented sixth chord is and how it works as a chromatic voice-leading chord before you start worrying about anything like that.


Yup.
#33
Quote by Life Is Brutal
Uhh, I don't believe the Gr6 is meant for modulation, otherwise you could just consider it a secondary dominant in the key change.

Well it can do if you displace the intervals by an octave, to create a diminished 3rd.
----
---4
-6-
----
-6-4
----

The TS's piece is a little different, cuz the gr6 resolves to a I64 rather than a i64.

By inverting the aug 6th to a diminished 3rd, you can carry on descending chromatically through many key centers.
---------0
---3-4-5-0-1
-6-4---3-0-
-5-5---5-2-
-6-5-4-3-2-1
--------
#34
Jazz Rock Feel has another thing to say!

Oh, and about elision. The idea is that you have a standard resolution, for instance I-V7-I but you elide the resolution (which means get rid of and replace with something else). In the case of a musical elision, you take out the expected resolution, (in this example, to I) and replace it with another dominant chord (a secondary dominant). Often you'll see it where the expected resolution is still sort of there, but with an added seventh to make it a dominant function. For example I - V7 - V7 / IV (which is the same as I7) - IV. You've taken out the expected resolution, replaced it with another dominant function chord and resolved it. It works because everyone understands dominant to tonic resolution, if only aurally, so our ear will still hear it as I - V7 - I - V7/IV - IV, even though we've gotten rid of the resolved I and replaced it with a V7/IV (elided it).
#35
Quote by JRF
Okay, a follow up. Elision is basically a word my theory professor possibly made up in this context, but it works. Basically what it means is when you have a dominant function chord and instead of resolving it in the expected manner you move to ANOTHER DOMINANT FUNCTION chord.

The musical term you're looking for is "back-cycling".
#36
Quote by mdc
The musical term you're looking for is "back-cycling".



Why is it called back-cycling out of curiosity?


Quote by Life Is Brutal
Yes.

Not sure on the second thing.

The general idea is that all songs go I-IV-V in some way, or even just I-V-I, and that everything else is irrelevant and just filler.

Uhh, I don't believe the Gr6 is meant for modulation, otherwise you could just consider it a secondary dominant in the key change.

JRF has been viewing this thread, so he'll get the message.



I see. I quite like that idea to be honest. It's like "right, these are the three main pillars, that's where we attack.' Everything else is like, a distraction. I understand this sounds a bit crazy, but I've had no sleep so it made sense to me. Good old I IV V.


I see, the German 6th is pretty cool, I've been writing out progressions with it all day. I tend to write with a melody first, but its nice to hear it now that I understand how it works you know?


Thanks to you, mdc and JRF for helping me with all this btw, much appreciated.


Quote by mdc
Well it can do if you displace the intervals by an octave, to create a diminished 3rd.
----
---4
-6-
----
-6-4
----

The TS's piece is a little different, cuz the gr6 resolves to a I64 rather than a i64.

By inverting the aug 6th to a diminished 3rd, you can carry on descending chromatically through many key centers.
---------0
---3-4-5-0-1
-6-4---3-0-
-5-5---5-2-
-6-5-4-3-2-1
--------



This thread continues to shatter my mind. Even I IV V songs now, I'm suspicious. It's brilliant.
#37
Quote by rocknrollstar
Why is it called back-cycling out of curiosity?

Back-cycling is a way of extending a chord progression in relation to a target chord.

The root movement of chords follow the circle of fourths, as opposed to the circle of fifths. Hence, going back through the circle.

It's mostly used with alternating m7 and dom7 chords, but sometimes exclusively dom7's.
#38
Quote by mdc
Back-cycling is a way of extending a chord progression in relation to a target chord.

The root movement of chords follow the circle of fourths, as opposed to the circle of fifths. Hence, going back through the circle.

It's mostly used with alternating m7 and dom7 chords, but sometimes exclusively dom7's.



Ahhh I see. I believe I've seen this used before. Horror films have that classic circle of fourths in diminished 7ths right? like Bdim7>Ddim7>Fdim7>Abdim7


This thread has been great, really eye opening. I'm going to keep learning classical pieces and also considering learning counterpoint.
#39
There are 3 typical +6 chords: italian, german, and french.

The key component is the +6 interval, enharmonic to a m7 interval. it & ger are enharmonically identical to a dom7. French is enharmonic to what you'd call a 7#11. The key in identifying them is looking at how they resolve.

We know a dom7 tends to resolve as follows: Root up a fourth, 3rd up a half step, 7th down a half step.

G --->C
B--->C
F-->E

An +6 doesn't resolve this way. The "augmented 6th" in the chord resolves outwards to an octave, and depending on where it's going (it can go a lot of places), the other notes (depending on the type of +6) can resolve a number of different ways.

Ab-->G
C--->B
F#-->G

The primary function of +6 is a chromatic predominant function to lead to V. It's a really strong harmonic pull. However, like dominant chords the function of this tonal cluster (not really a chord) can function deceptively and in a secondary manner - much like a secondary dominant.

You can tonicize ANY chord with a +6, you'd just label it: [it/fr/ger +6/ x]: it+6/iv, for instance, and it will resolve in the same manner. The +6 will resolve outwards to an octave. Think of the possible modulatory opportunities this kind of sonority provides...For instance.

If you're in Cm and you're tonicizing V with it+6 (Ab C F#). What if you tried resolving the +6 outwards to the G, but didn't actually resolve it to the V chord. The resolution to the G could be a chord tone in a different chord...It could be the fifth of the V/iv, or the third of a VI, etc, etc.
Last edited by chronowarp at Feb 20, 2012,
#40
I don't know the piece, and to be honest I don't have any intention of actually doing an analysis on this piece to demonstrate what I mean, but I think it's just worth throwing this out there: listing the chords used does not constitute an analysis. Harmonic analysis by listing every chord is purely an exercise in identifying chords, and does not make sense of the music in any way. It's the equivalent of doing a literary analysis by just paraphrasing the thing that you're analyzing.

A good analysis should be able to describe a piece to someone who is not familiar with the work, and leave them with a fairly good idea as to what the piece is like. For example, your analysis only hints at the fact that the prelude is in a binary form, and makes no mention of phrase structure or tonality. For your analysis, I would only talk about the particularly unusual harmonic moments, because the rest is simply not interesting or relevant.
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