#1
Came across this article this morning and thought it was really interesting.


‎"Opera and rap take work to appreciate — perhaps more effort than many of today's music consumers are willing to expend. In an age when more and more music is available to anyone's ears, are we turning into lazy listeners? Is it too easy to download too much, to acquire everything but actually hear nothing? Does any time remain to fully appreciate a complete hip-hop album, let alone an entire opera? It also takes work to enjoy music that's as in-your-face as opera and rap are. With all the melodrama, social consciousness, violence and intense vocal styles, they certainly are not musical wallpaper."


http://www.npr.org/blogs/deceptivecadence/2012/02/16/146997896/why-do-people-hate-rap-and-opera
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#2
1. Rap is one of the most hugely successful genres we have right now. The notion that it might take to much effort to appreciate is bullshit.
2. I don't know about everybody else, but I appreciate it, I just also find it incredibly annoying.
#3
^ basdically what the turtle said. Personally alot of rap gets under my skin b/c it seems like all them fools can write some sick lyrics but most rappers couldn't write any music to save their lives and the ones that do "write music" usually just take a beat, bassline and maybe a melody and bam, done. Then its 3 1/2 minutes of the same crappy loop over and over
#4
The comparison of the two genres in the article are pretty tenuous. The only part that isnt just bollocks is the thing about them being from almost opposite ends of the social spectrum. I suppose that gives them something in common... I'm sure they arent the only two genres that are based heavily in class. In a nutshell though, opera = highbrow, and rap = lowbrow, or at least thats the preconception. Although, if anything hiphop and rapping has in a few short years (compared to opera) managed to take itself from being essentially something that was solely for the underclasses, to being a perfectly credible and at times very intelligent form of expression and art. Opera seems to be stuck mostly where its at, and any attempts to expand (change, move whatever) end up like being like musical theater. It would seem like a step backwards.

I get that they both come up often as peoples most blindly hated genres, but thats all kind of moot anyway, because if anyone is completely dismissive of a genre without having taken the time to actually listen to and try to understand it, i don't consider their opinions to be valid anyway, and they certainly dont need an article addressing their silliness.

And anyway, I think theres tons of music that takes work to appreciate, that is neither opera or hip hop.
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Last edited by FunkasPuck at Feb 23, 2012,
#6
That article is terrible and should not be taken seriously be anyone ever.

They are just 2 genres often hated by ignorant people.
#7
I don't hate rap, per se. I find a lot to appreciate in any genre of music and can admire the skill in a well-constructed rap song. Some of the lyrical gymnastics are impressive, and a well-done freestyle can be amazing.

That said, there's a lot about the genre that I do dislike a great deal.

1 - The aforementioned "loop it and leave it" method of song construction. Honestly, I hate the concept of sampling and that a lot of rap artists feel the need to rely on it so heavily. Write your own damn music. Don't rip off other people's - and a lot of them do play fast and loose with the legal issues around sample clearing. I actually heard a rapper complain once that said legal issues "were killing hip-hop". So, let me get this straight - you can't write a song without yanking music from someone else's record?

2 - A lot of the music is just plain obnoxious. Turn off the damn auto-tune and stop, as I like to put it, "bragging to a beat".

3 - Not so much the genre, but its fans. I've never been woken up at 3am by someone in a shitty car with a cranked stereo rattling my windows with Led Zeppelin, I can tell you that. There's something about rap that makes its fans want to share it with everyone within a six-block radius.

4 - A lot of the trappings of the style are just goofy. I can't take you seriously or think you're all "hardcore" if your pants are around your ankles, your hat's on sideways, you have more jewelry than Mr. T, gold teeth, a bouncy car with spinning rims, or a giant clock around your neck. You look like a clown.
Last edited by CarsonStevens at Feb 23, 2012,
#8
Quote by CarsonStevens

1 - The aforementioned "loop it and leave it" method of song construction. Honestly, I hate the concept of sampling and that a lot of rap artists feel the need to rely on it so heavily.


I actually prefer the 'loop it and leave it' approach to modern hip hop beats that are totaly overproduced and don't leave any room for the lyrics so you can't really understand anything...
#9
I like Opera but not a fan of rap.

Personally to me, rap seems to be the get rich scheme of music. Even though there are other artists in other genres that do the same but rap is more filled.

I find the meanings to the songs distasteful. Everyone has the right to compose, produce, and perform their work, but all rap to me seems to be the same. Bitching about your job, bitching about some crack ***** trying to make money, bitching about your girlfriend, and bitching you can't get sluts.

I, myself, find nothing to applaud in this genre. Maybe earlier forms of rap but today's rap is based off the electronic input of devices and other people and sometimes legally "borrowing" material to slap lyrics on top that often don't have a sense of rhythm.

That is my two cents.

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#10
I don't think its harder to appreciate in the sense that average people find it difficult to enjoy, i think it's harder to appreciate in the sense that finding hip hop with actual substance or creativity is difficult to do unless you choose to dig further than what's being promoted to the masses by the media.

Because of that, it's inherently not as fulfilling as other genres of music to the average listener who only hears, as one user put it, "bragging to a beat"
#11
I love rap, granted a large part of it is crap. The same can be said for other "respected genres" such as jazz and opera.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ep0hay4Qw54
Kendrick Lamar is a great new rap artist and I feel will be he face of rap in years to come.
If you've never heard of him and are on the fence about rap, please give him a listen. He's got a great message and great beats and is an excellent lyricist.

That being said, I normally dont like music the first time I listen to it. I usually do a lot of forced listening to myself in order to get inside new music.
Theres a John Cage quote that goes "If something is boring after two minutes, try it for four. If still boring, then eight. Then sixteen. Then thirty-two. Eventually one discovers that it is not boring at all."
I think the more you listen to something, the more you understand what it takes to make it, the message it sends, the vibes you get from it, whatever.
It takes much less effort to find ONE thing you like in something and latch onto that than to dismiss it all as crap.
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#12
Quote by King Of Suede

That being said, I normally dont like music the first time I listen to it. I usually do a lot of forced listening to myself in order to get inside new music.
Theres a John Cage quote that goes "If something is boring after two minutes, try it for four. If still boring, then eight. Then sixteen. Then thirty-two. Eventually one discovers that it is not boring at all."


I really like this quote. It's rare that I like any music the first time I hear it, and if I do, it usually doesn't become a favorite. For instance, my absolute favorite band is Between The Buried And Me. But there were 3 different times that I had downloaded their whole discography (up to Colors at the time), listened to it, didn't like it, and deleted it, before I found even a small handful of songs that I liked.
#13
Quote by jetfuel495
I don't think its harder to appreciate in the sense that average people find it difficult to enjoy, i think it's harder to appreciate in the sense that finding hip hop with actual substance or creativity is difficult to do unless you choose to dig further than what's being promoted to the masses by the media.

Because of that, it's inherently not as fulfilling as other genres of music to the average listener who only hears, as one user put it, "bragging to a beat"


I really have to agree with this. The same can be said for other genres, as well, so I don't know why rap gets such a slagging for it. Granted, there are some rap/hip-hop artists I really like (I'm particularly fond of nerdcore - MC Lars, MC Frontalot, and the like), so I can't blanketly say it's all crap... but the mainstream is filled with ego-fueled idiots that have their heads so far up their own asses it's impossible to like. There's a nasty arrogance that I simply don't see in other genres... Yngwie Malmsteen aside.

Anyway, I think there's something to be said for the fact that all of the "good stuff" is still underground. Maybe, ironically, the hipsters have a point this time.

Although, I've also heard accusation that anyone who doesn't like rap doesn't like it because they're racist. That's a whole other can o' worms. I'm not fond of some other forms of "black" music like soul, gospel, or R&B, but it's because their sound/stylings don't appeal to me. However, I love the blues. I guess it's because I'm a rocker, and rock's roots are the blues. YMMV.
Last edited by CarsonStevens at Feb 23, 2012,
#14
I'm not sure whether you guys have heard rap outside of that on the top 40.

I'd recoomend checking out some tracks from:

The Roots
Jurassic 5
Danger Doom

Before passing judgement on all rap music based on the top 40 i drive hot cars, root girls and make money stuff.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#15
^ i like the roots, do either of the other artists do more than the bare minimal songwise? To me listening to the same thing over and over gets repetitive.
#16
Quote by CarsonStevens
I've never been woken up at 3am by someone in a shitty car with a cranked stereo rattling my windows with Led Zeppelin, I can tell you that.
.


If you get woken up by a lot of hip hop, theres a good chance that at least some of it was actually sampled from led zep.

Psychadelic music was what the real old skool lowriders used to blare out.
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#17
Quote by FunkasPuck
If you get woken up by a lot of hip hop, theres a good chance that at least some of it was actually sampled from led zep.

Psychadelic music was what the real old skool lowriders used to blare out.


To be honest, I can't tell what it is. At those volumes, you can't hear it so much as feel it - a low, buzzing WHOMMMMM that goes on for seconds at a time.

Rule of thumb, folks; if I can hear your shit over my rolled-up windows and my own blaring stereo, it's too damn loud.

...and get off my lawn!
#18
Opera is a stage medium. To be appreciated, you have to be there. Most are in languages that a majority of Americans don't speak. However, the plots are usually simple soap-opera stuff...Operas were produced for a mass audience. In Europe, even commoners were schooled from a young age to appreciate the form.
As for Hip-Hop or Rap or whatever folks are calling it...I can't imagine any great amount of "work" involved in learning yo appreciate the form, since millions of under-educated young folks eat it up. Personally, I have never listened to any example longer than it would take to turn off.
I find it uniformly dreadful.
But then, I'm a 65-year old white guy...
#19
Opera > Rap, IMO.

I do have appreciation for rap, albeit not much. If I listen to any rap, Its from either Immortal Technique, is a parody of the genre, or is playing in the background from someone else.

I don't appreciate either to how much I "should" though, as I feel they're far too vocally oriented, and for some reason, I dislike vocal based music.

I'd rather take their close relatives, Classical and Electronic music over either of those.
#20
You could level the same criticisms at any genre of music you don't listen to much. Why is all metal crap and lackng melody? Why is all electronic music all boom boom diddledillde? Why is all country music driving trucks and 3 chords? Why criticise something you know nothing about?
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#21
Listen to what you want to listen to.
Respect the music you respect, not what other people say you should respect.
Accept that people LIKE different music to you and get an emotional response from different music than you.

P.S. Malmsteen isn't arrogant.

Peace x
#22
Quote by Artemis Entreri
Came across this article this morning and thought it was really interesting.


‎"Opera and rap take work to appreciate — perhaps more effort than many of today's music consumers are willing to expend. In an age when more and more music is available to anyone's ears, are we turning into lazy listeners? Is it too easy to download too much, to acquire everything but actually hear nothing? Does any time remain to fully appreciate a complete hip-hop album, let alone an entire opera? It also takes work to enjoy music that's as in-your-face as opera and rap are. With all the melodrama, social consciousness, violence and intense vocal styles, they certainly are not musical wallpaper."


http://www.npr.org/blogs/deceptivecadence/2012/02/16/146997896/why-do-people-hate-rap-and-opera



Well, people have opinions just like you. I suggest accepting that rather than demonizing people that don't share your tastes.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Feb 23, 2012,
#23
Quote by griffRG7321
P.S. Malmsteen isn't arrogant.


I, personally don't think he is, actually... but I read an article in Guitar World (it was from 2010... I'm a bit behind) where someone asked him how he responded to accusations of being arrogant. I've also read a bit about it on here... although to be fair the only real bit of 'tude I got from him during said interview was in response to that particular question, where he said that "Eric Clapton has been playing the same five notes for the last 30 years". At least one reader took offense, though, as there was a letter to the editor in the next issue telling him to take his ego and die in a fire. Obviously, enough people consider him arrogant that such a question needed to be asked.

Personally, I feel that he's simply very aware of the fact that he's one of the world's greatest guitarists and helped revolutionize a particular genre of music... which is definitely something to take pride in. And, it's not like he's writing songs about how awesome he is... unlike, say, 50-cent, whose greatest claim to fame is failing to duck when someone points a gun at him. Derp.

As to opera, correct me if I'm wrong, but... isn't all opera, or at least a huge portion of it, in Italian? I can see how that would raise the barrier of entry for anyone who doesn't speak the language. I mean, I love J-pop but I don't speak a lick of Japanese, and it's frustrating sometimes not knowing what my favorite songs are actually saying. Though, I've heard, say, Les Miserables called an operetta... which has been translated to every language under the sun.

I can definitely see why it's hard to appreciate - opera evokes images of stuffy people in suits and old ladies with opera glasses (natch) paying hundreds of dollars a seat for an evening out to hear "a fat guy in a clown suit" singing in a foreign language. It's not something, say, Fitty's fans are going to suddenly get into.

And, true - all forms of music has stuff "wrong" with it. I used to say such music "sucked", but I don't do that anymore. Now, I simply say it doesn't appeal to me. I daresay music without widespread appeal has aspects of it that don't appeal to more people than music with widespread appeal. After all, Britney Spears continues to sell out concerts across the globe, and when I was in China I was constantly being asked if I was a fan of the Backstreet Boys. In 2005.

edit: Relevancy!

Spike Jones: "Pal-yat-chee"
Last edited by CarsonStevens at Feb 24, 2012,
#24
Pesonally, I feel with rap, good artists are diamonds in the rough, and THEN you have to dig through that rough to actually get to the artists with substance. My personal favourite artists/groups are: Rage Against the Machine, The Flobots (Fight with Tools) and Symphony of Science (auto-tuned science lectures that are hilarious).

Just my 2 cents.
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#25
@ CarsonStevens

Les Mis is in a grey area between opera and musical theatre.
And there are a lot of operas in German, French, Latin, even in English.
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#26
People hate rap because of guys like sean diddy puff daddy puffy combes or whatever the hell that dude calls himself and Kanye West.

But there's some good ones too. A single JayZ IceT couplet: "If you're having girl problems I feel bad for you son, I got 99 problems and a bitch aint one." is a brilliant lyric, - what a great hook.
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Feb 24, 2012,
#27
Quote by GuitarMunky
Well, people have opinions just like you. I suggest accepting that rather than demonizing people that don't share your tastes.



I really hope that isn't directed at me...
I spend a lot of time getting patronized in my music department because I listen to a wide variety of genres with little to no prejudice.

Quote by CarsonStevens

As to opera, correct me if I'm wrong, but... isn't all opera, or at least a huge portion of it, in Italian? I can see how that would raise the barrier of entry for anyone who doesn't speak the language. I mean, I love J-pop but I don't speak a lick of Japanese, and it's frustrating sometimes not knowing what my favorite songs are actually saying. Though, I've heard, say, Les Miserables called an operetta... which has been translated to every language under the sun.

I can definitely see why it's hard to appreciate - opera evokes images of stuffy people in suits and old ladies with opera glasses (natch) paying hundreds of dollars a seat for an evening out to hear "a fat guy in a clown suit" singing in a foreign language. It's not something, say, Fitty's fans are going to suddenly get into.


Opera was certainly popular in Italy and some of it's greatest composers were born or lived there. But no, there are a multitude of other languages. Wagner and Weber in Germany, Musorgsky and the Russian Five in Russia, Lully in France, Purcell in England (though if I remember correctly he may have written in Italian.) etc, etc, etc.

And I don't know where you got that image....
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#28
^^
Nope, Purcell wrote in English... at least I'm pretty sure he did, as the conductor of my choir sang in a performance of Dido and Aeneas the other day, and it was in English
Quote by Xiaoxi
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#29
Quote by mrkeka
^^
Nope, Purcell wrote in English... at least I'm pretty sure he did, as the conductor of my choir sang in a performance of Dido and Aeneas the other day, and it was in English


Yeah I thought he did but for some reason I had a vague memory of Italian associated with his operas.
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#31
lol comparing rap to opera? What a joke.

And how is rap hated? It is the most mainstream style that exists.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#32
Quote by Xiaoxi
lol comparing rap to opera? What a joke.

And how is rap hated? It is the most mainstream style that exists.


Keep in mind the audience this article is directed to.
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#33
Quote by Artemis Entreri
Keep in mind the audience this article is directed to.

No matter what perspective you look at this from, it is a useless discussion.

Considering the classical readers of NPR, there is no reason why rap has to be singled out here. Any number of genres fit the same prejudice. The author's attempt to compare rap to opera through college-essay-bullshit stretches is cringe inducing.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#35
All rap's about is getting tang from 20 women, money, and killing, that takes a lot of work to write down aye mate?
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#36
Quote by JakePlaysGuitar
All rap's about is getting tang from 20 women, money, and killing, that takes a lot of work to write down aye mate?

All blues is about loneliness, relationship problems and hard liquor, that takes a lot of work to write down aye mate?
#37
If you'll notice, I wrote a comment on the article page. Getting the likes.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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