#1
Saw a video on youtube about bebop style guitar. Not sure if its Jazz or an extension of jazz really.
Anyway. I been looking at some stuff about it and most of its going waay over my head cuz Im not that savvy in music theory.
If someone could help with understanding some of this, thatd be great.

One thing I saw was this, and it left me scratching my head.
"The bebop scale is created by adding either a major 7 to a Mixolydian scale or a major 3 to a Dorian scale."
"A guitar is your personality expressed through six strings"

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#2
My perspective: there are no be-bop scales - only chromatic decorations of already existing scales, that people abstract from context after the fact and make into a construct called "be-bop scales". But I highly doubt that Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespe were making lines with "be-bop scales" as their point of reference.

The construct of a "be-bop scale", as described, is just adding a particular chromatic passing tone to a scale. You can do this in many ways - it doesn't make a new scale.

P.S. If you have to ask if be-bop is jazz ... well, maybe you need to spend more time listening to this music and steeping yourself in it.
#3
I have not listened to much jazz, just always in search of new ways to play the guitar.
"A guitar is your personality expressed through six strings"

"I'm cuddly bitch, deal with it"
Last edited by Iblis92 at Feb 29, 2012,
#4
there are bebop scales, major, dominant, tonic minor, and minor, you can check those out.

lets put it like this....

bebop is the most difficult form of jazz, there are jazz players who spend years getting halfway decent at it, there is NO WAY that someone who isn't savvy at jazz guitar AT ALL, who will be able to incorporate or understand how bebop works. in no way is this meant to insult you, it's just not gonna happen, start off learning easier forms of jazz like hard bop or swing or even the blues, it's the predecessor. if you want to get into jazz guitar, great! but if you start with bebop you won't get anything and it will turn you way off.
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#5
There is no such thing as a bebop scale. Bebop is a STYLE combined by distinct melodic contours, the way notes are handled, and rhythmic variations. It's not about scales, it's about how you do things.

Listen to it. Listen to closely and carefully. Isolate some solos. Get to know the language by immersing yourself in it. That's the only way you can do it. Here are some suggestions:

Miles Davis - Solar
Dexter Gordon - Cheesecake
Wes Montgomery - D Natural Blues
Charlie Parker - Donna Lee
JS Bach - Partita I for Solo Violin

...modes and scales are still useless.


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Last edited by Xiaoxi at Feb 29, 2012,
#6
Quote by gerraguitar
there are bebop scales, major, dominant, tonic minor, and minor, you can check those out.

lets put it like this....

bebop is the most difficult form of jazz, there are jazz players who spend years getting halfway decent at it, there is NO WAY that someone who isn't savvy at jazz guitar AT ALL, who will be able to incorporate or understand how bebop works. in no way is this meant to insult you, it's just not gonna happen, start off learning easier forms of jazz like hard bop or swing or even the blues, it's the predecessor. if you want to get into jazz guitar, great! but if you start with bebop you won't get anything and it will turn you way off.

qft

If you don't listen to the music, if you don't understand what the point of it is, you're not going to be halfway proficient at it.
Plus Be-Bop especially lends itself to even more pretentious assholes than classical music. If you're not on a serious be-bop player's level, 9 times out of 10 they'll ignore your existence.

Go ahead and start listening to jazz. Pick up a Wes Montgomery, John Scofield, or Joe Pass album and learn yourself some tunes.
Don't jump right into purchasing an Omni book and think you'll be shedding a Rhythm Changes at 300+ if you've never laid down your iii-vi-ii-V-I's comfortably
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Last edited by King Of Suede at Feb 29, 2012,
#7
learning these phrases which clearly outline harmony in all twelve keys will help
three bar phrases, all quarter notes over a ii V one all in C.
Dm7- -----G7---------CM7
F-E-D-C- B-A-G-F- E
D-F-A-C- B-A-G-F- E
F-A-C-E- D-C-B-A- G
F-D-E-C- B-A-G-F- E
C-D-E-F- G-A-B-D- C
then, to make it sound boppy, practice changing the 9ths on the dominant chords to flat 9ths, and using chromatic decorations (starting with only the raised seventh on the dominant chord, then moving into the raised third and seventh on minor chords and the lowered 6th on Major chords--these chromatic notes, in addition to regular chord/scales give you bebop scales). When you start adding chromatic notes, keep them on off beats only and restrict your rhythms to quarter notes and eighth notes, and eventually start putting chromatic notes on strong beats to delay resolutions, and experimenting with anticipations and syncopated rhythms, eventually go back to super basic chord outlines, but start writing your own, and then altering them, making sure to connect the thirds and sevenths of chord (for example, resolving the C on a D minor to a B on a G7, and resolving the F on G7 to the E on C major), and, eventually start working on resolving your lines to tensions rather then chord tones.
Also, learning solos off recording is very, very valuable, but if you actually want to improvise, and not just plug in licks, its probably better to really work to understand how and why bop playing works and sounds the way it does, rather then just copping licks.
Also, going through a simple jazz standard and arpegiating every chord from the root, third, fifth and seventh will go a long way towards teaching you to "play the changes", which is a big part of the bop style--making the harmony of the song your playing apparent in your lines.

and to answer your question

C Bebop dominant scale
C-D-E-F-G-A-Bb-B-C

C Bebop minor scale(s)
for pre dominant functioning chords
C-D-Eb-E-F-G-A-Bb-C
C-D-Eb-F-G-A-Bb-B-C
for tonic functioning chords
C-D-Eb-E-F-G-A-B-C
C-D-Eb-E-F-G-Ab-B-C

C Bebop Major scale
C-D-E-F-G-G#-A-B-C

Basically, the way they work is that when you start on a chord tone and run up or down them in constant eighth notes it puts chord tones on strong beats.
this book has a lot of useful bebop scale practice:
http://www.jazzbooks.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=JAJAZZ&Product_Code=BEBOP&Category_Code=SCAPATCHO
all the best.
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Last edited by tehREALcaptain at Feb 29, 2012,
#8
Quote by Brainpolice2
My perspective: there are no be-bop scales - only chromatic decorations of already existing scales, that people abstract from context after the fact and make into a construct called "be-bop scales".


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#9
I see thanks for the input. btw, I feel I must defend myself somewhat. Im by no means pretentious, I just like the sound of the style. I feel every musician should actually be on a constant pursuit of exploration.
Anyway. Most of the stuff said on this topic is going straight the **** over my head. But ill bookmark this for later for reference.
"A guitar is your personality expressed through six strings"

"I'm cuddly bitch, deal with it"
#10
everyone's done a suprisingly good job so far of explaining it.

in simpler terms since it's still going over your head:

the way improvising was approached in the time of louis armstrong is was mostly just chord tones and diatonic passing tones. lots of 3rds and 7ths. everything was basically based of 1-3-5-7 (so, off an F7 that'd mean you mess with the notes F-A-C-Eb). all bebop really did was do the same thing, but with upper extensions. harmony is built in thirds. they just kept going up in thirds. they also did extended enclosures and stuff for added chromaticism and dissonance.

if you look at a lot of bebop licks, they're mostly arpeggio based though. check your library. there's a dissertation some dude did on these hundred licks or so he found to be charlie parker's vocabulary when soloing, 20 of which were his basic arsenal he always used. the first and most used one is just a 3-5-7-9 arpeggio.



first measure is Fmaj7. melody notes are just A, C and E. the 3rd, 5th and 7th. the Bb is just an upper neighbor NCT. the F and F# (even though the F is technically a chord tone) is just part of a chromatic phrase to the G on beat 1 of the 2nd measure. G being the third of that chord, Emin7b5.

don't think about it too much though. practice your arpeggios as 1-3-5-7 and 3-5-7-9. then once you have that, practice incorporating chromaticism in different ways. just rip licks from these heads and solos, play them over and over until you become ingrained with bebop vocabulary.
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#12
Yeah Life Is Brutal knows all about the hit-jepiddly POP bedoobee pang zdiPOP.
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#13
you see, jazz is like a jello pudding pop.
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#16
Quote by Iblis92
I see thanks for the input. btw, I feel I must defend myself somewhat. Im by no means pretentious, I just like the sound of the style. I feel every musician should actually be on a constant pursuit of exploration.
Anyway. Most of the stuff said on this topic is going straight the **** over my head. But ill bookmark this for later for reference.


Apologies if I came off rudely. It just seems clear that you may be getting ahead of yourself - which isn't all that uncommon with guitar players on the internet looking at long lists of scales as a key to expand their horizons. But if you're talking be-bop, you're talking jazz, and if you really want to get into playing that kind of stuff, you're going to likely need a good understanding of harmony and chords, a sense of chromaticism (which I view constructs like "be-bop scales" as an insufficient if not confused short-cut to), and overall familiarity with the styles and conventions.

Bebop simply increased the degree of chromaticism, and the rythmic and harmonic complexity, of jazz. It's going to be useful to understand some core concepts before diving into it. I really don't believe that a series of exotic scales is going to be an accurate framework to understand the music, so I think it's best to nip that problem in the bud from the get go. An understanding of chromatic passing and leading tones and non-diatonic harmony (which is what a good deal of "outside" sounding stuff boils down to) makes those exotic scales irrelevant and provides a more comprehensive, expansive view of the possibilities.

A scale-formula won't provide the answer - it's a restrictive box.
Last edited by Brainpolice2 at Mar 1, 2012,