Poll: Is This Wrong?
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View poll results: Is This Wrong?
Yes
36 40%
No
35 39%
Undecided
18 20%
Voters: 89.
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#1
Consider, if you will, this hypothetical scenario: There is a person who is advertising as a "helper" for those seeking to commit suicide. Whether it is through euthanasia or whatever is irrelevant. The point is, people who are suicidal can to go to this person for assisted suicide. What's the catch? It is actually a plan to con prospective suicides into getting help. The idea is that some people do not open up about their suicidal intent and it comes as a surprise to friends and family. This basically tricks them into going to trained professionals that will help these people remove their suicidal thoughts. Metaphorically speaking, they build a bridge and say "Hey, I've got a bridge for you to jump off of." but there is a trampoline right under it.

The question is this: Is this right or wrong? Should you con someone into preventing their own suicide? Does the end justify the means?

DonGedit: Let's just assume that it works and the person no longer tries to commit suicide. Is it right or wrong, even if it works out in the end?
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Last edited by DonGlover at Mar 1, 2012,
#3
I don't know if I'd call it wrong.
Entrapment's more about setting people up to get them in trouble.
Sometimes people just aren't in the right state of mind when they request to be killed via euthanasia. However, some very much want to be killed, so I guess that's where this becomes more condescending than it is helpful. Depends on the situation, I guess.
#4
I think it would be wrong to do this. I suppose the calculation one has to make is: is it worth it to lie in order to prevent someone from committing suicide. I think life is a right, just as death is, so I don't think suicide is always bad. Also, I value honesty.

If you think suicide is always bad and lies are not always bad, then it's worth it to lie in the off chance you'll get a payoff. But if suicide isn't always bad and neither is lying, you can't say with any certainty that it's worth it.
#5
If it saves lives, then its the right thing to do. Its far from the most moral way to do it, but the purpose is to save lives. I would consider morality to be of lesser importance than human life.
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Last edited by T00DEEPBLUE at Mar 1, 2012,
#7
Im not sure. What if the thought of actually going thru with it haunts them? I assume that the helper provokes it a little bit. But i think it would be a hard task. What forms of suicide would he get the person to do and be unsuccessful?
#8
Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
If it saves lives, then its the right thing to do.

But shouldn't people have the right to death just as they do the right to life? Is it not, ultimately, their decision? This is where the divide rests.
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#9
Right and wrong are concepts dictated almost entirely by religious edict. Actual right and wrong don't exist; only our ideas of what we perceive to be moral or immoral.

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#10
Quote by strat0blaster
Right and wrong are concepts dictated almost entirely by religious edict. Actual right and wrong don't exist; only our ideas of what we perceive to be moral or immoral.



Then it's never worth discussing morality. So your post is a waste of time?
#11
Quote by strat0blaster
Right and wrong are concepts dictated almost entirely by religious edict. Actual right and wrong don't exist; only our ideas of what we perceive to be moral or immoral.


I wasn't looking for an objective answer. I was interested in seeing who thinks it's right and who thinks it's wrong, as well as their justification.

Quote by jrcsgtpeppers
Im not sure. What if the thought of actually going thru with it haunts them? I assume that the helper provokes it a little bit. But i think it would be a hard task. What forms of suicide would he get the person to do and be unsuccessful?

You're taking the hypothetical too seriously and focusing on the wrong issue (which often happens in hypothetical situations). The person isn't actually going through with the suicide and failing. Lets say they meet the person and it turns into an intervention type scenario where the friends and family are there. Either way, the question is really whether it is right to con someone out of suicide.
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Last edited by DonGlover at Mar 1, 2012,
#12
Quote by DonGlover
But shouldn't people have the right to death just as they do the right to life? Is it not, ultimately, their decision? This is where the divide rests.


I think they should try to help and if the patient still wants to die then just do what they ask.
#13
Quote by strat0blaster
Right and wrong are concepts dictated almost entirely by religious edict. Actual right and wrong don't exist; only our ideas of what we perceive to be moral or immoral.


Well, not just by religious edict, but duh.

Are you drunk? We shouldn't be reducing this to that level.
#15
People would catch on pretty quick as to what it was though.
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#16
Quote by DonGlover
But shouldn't people have the right to death just as they do the right to life? Is it not, ultimately, their decision? This is where the divide rests.

Possibly. But what would you value more? Morality or a human's life?
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#17
Since we're assuming it works, I have no objections. A lie is a small price to pay to save a life.
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#18
Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Possibly. But what would you value more? Morality or a human's life?


Morality. I can and should control my moral behavior, but I can't and shouldn't control whether someone chooses to live or die.

The fact that you've identified one choice as the moral one necessarily implies that it's the one we ought to do.
#19
Quote by Julz127
People would catch on pretty quick as to what it was though.

Once again, stop focusing on irrelevant details. It's a hypothetical scenario. It pans out however I want it to.
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#20
What it sounds like is a way of trying to help the person. Whether or not it's actually an effective method is sort of irrelevant. I wouldn't say it's wrong. The person wanting to commit suicide doesn't have to keep asking for their help.
Last edited by The Madcap at Mar 1, 2012,
#21
Quote by Yenko38
Morality. I can and should control my moral behavior, but I can't and shouldn't control whether someone chooses to live or die.

The fact that you've identified one choice as the moral one necessarily implies that it's the one we ought to do.

Is it moral to commit suicide?
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#22
Quote by Yenko38
Then it's never worth discussing morality. So your post is a waste of time?

Depends on how much value you put on it, doesn't it?
Quote by dullsilver_mike
Well, not just by religious edict, but duh.

Are you drunk? We shouldn't be reducing this to that level.

Not drunk. And why not? The entire subject of the question TS posed is based on right and wrong, and morality.

But seriously - it was a joke. I was hoping the large can of worms picture would point to that...

Since I have to put things in obvious, baser terms here, I'll give the simplified answer-

If someone wants to die it's their business to do so. Don't drag someone else into it unless you have absolutely no other recourse, and in that case, your desire should be evidenced somehow.
Do you feel warm within your cage?

And have you figured out yet -


Life goes by?
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#23
Quote by DonGlover
There is a person who is advertising as a "helper" for those seeking to commit suicide.

I think this is illegal?

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#24
Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Is it moral to commit suicide?


Is immorality an excuse for immorality?
#25
Quote by strat0blaster
Depends on how much value you put on it, doesn't it?



Nope. If it's all relative and morality is all perception, then there's no possible way for anyone to have a discussion from any common ground. You'd never get anywhere in the discourse.
#26
Quote by Yenko38
Is immorality an excuse for immorality?


Immortality? No.

Literal life-or-death difference? Yes.
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#27
Quote by Yenko38
Is immorality an excuse for immorality?

Is human life an excuse for human life?
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#28
Quote by strat0blaster
Depends on how much value you put on it, doesn't it?

Not drunk. And why not? The entire subject of the question TS posed is based on right and wrong, and morality.

But seriously - it was a joke. I was hoping the large can of worms picture would point to that...

Since I have to put things in obvious, baser terms here, I'll give the simplified answer-

If someone wants to die it's their business to do so. Don't drag someone else into it unless you have absolutely no other recourse, and in that case, your desire should be evidenced somehow.


I asked if you were drunk.. I get the joke
#29
Quote by Yenko38
Morality. I can and should control my moral behavior, but I can't and shouldn't control whether someone chooses to live or die.

The fact that you've identified one choice as the moral one necessarily implies that it's the one we ought to do.

What if someone thinks that trying to stop someone from committing suicide is their moral obligation? Then they are stuck, and must pick between the lesser of two evils.
Besides, if a person can be convinced that suicide is wrong, then their life is saved. If they can't be convinced, then they go through with it, and nobody is alive to remember the lie, and you can know that you tried your best to save them.
#31
Quote by DonGlover
But shouldn't people have the right to death just as they do the right to life? Is it not, ultimately, their decision? This is where the divide rests.

Normally yes, but what if the person is not thinking straight?

There are a lot of people who are so depressed that all they can think about is ending it, and forget to consider that life could get better!

I can't really explain it very well, but for an example lets say there's some high school kid that hates his life and wants to kill himself. Assuming he doesn't kill himself, he lives on to become a happy person and appreciates his life. But, if he ended up killing himself in high school, even if it is technically his decision, he loses the right to live a happy life in the future because of how he was feeling at that point of his life.

Hope that makes sense...
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#32
Quote by nbur4556
Normally yes, but what if the person is not thinking straight?

There are a lot of people who are so depressed that all they can think about is ending it, and forget to consider that life could get better!

I can't really explain it very well, but for an example lets say there's some high school kid that hates his life and wants to kill himself. Assuming he doesn't kill himself, he lives on to become a happy person and appreciates his life. But, if he ended up killing himself in high school, even if it is technically his decision, he loses the right to live a happy life in the future because of how he was feeling at that point of his life.

Hope that makes sense...

Believe me, I understand full well. I advocate the right to suicide/death but advise against it. As far as I'm concerned, life is a unique opportunity, so I'd rather live it through the thick and the thin. But I don't think anyone else has the right to impede on anyone else's right to suicide.
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#33
I would say that it's the right thing to do. It will help people that want to commit suicide to get help and fix whatever their problems are.
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#35
Quote by IRISH_PUNK13
I would say that it's the right thing to do. It will help people that want to commit suicide to get help and fix whatever their problems are.

What if their problem is that they simply don't want to live anymore?
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#36
Quote by DonGlover
What if their problem is that they simply don't want to live anymore?

They can fix that problem too.
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#37
Quote by DonGlover
What if their problem is that they simply don't want to live anymore?


Given the hypothetical scenario assumes it works and the person ends up alive and happy, I'd say that they're either acting rashly, aren't in a healthy mindstate, or are otherwise have the will to live normally.
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#38
Quote by DonGlover
What if their problem is that they simply don't want to live anymore?


If that's the case then they'll find a way to do it anyway. They were willing to take the steps needed to find someone that they thought would solve their problem, so I don't see why this person trying to get them help (therapy, etc) would change their mind.

If you're depressed and you can be helped then I don't see why the person shouldn't try to give them the nudge they need to get psychiatric help. If the person has thought about it and decided that there's no reason for them to live then they'll do it anyway.
Quote by L2112Lif
I put a ton of my capital into SW Airlines... The next day, THE NEXT DAY these nutters fly into the WTC. What the hell? Apparently no one wanted to fly anymore, and I was like "What gives? God damnit Osama, let me win a fuggin' game!"
#39
Quote by DonGlover
What if their problem is that they simply don't want to live anymore?

I would say that as long as they're set on that idea, have thought about any other decisions, and decided that killing themselves is the best option for themselves, then entrapment isn't going to help them anyway...
"When that day comes I shall Futterwacken ... vigorously."
~ The Mad Hatter



#40
I don't really know how to answer the right/wrong question, I don't really like the implications of the terminology.

I don't agree with it though. I believe that what somebody does with their body is their own business if it doesn't violate another persons freedom. To me that includes choosing the option of ceasing to exist. You don't get a choice in whether or not you exist in the first place, and there are certainly scenarios where one would value ceasing to exist over persisting in agony. Where this line is drawn is up entirely to the individual, so the state or any other organization should leave it to that individual to judge.

I very much dislike the amount of unjustified and unwanted interference and power put over the individual wishing to end his life in this hypothetical. I fail to see a sane argument against euthanasia in general, as it certainly has scenarios where it is justified (terminal illnesses being the main ones). I don't see how one can claim superiority in their subjective line drawing for when it is and isn't ok. If you are going to implement policy such as this, you are certainly making that claim, which is more than enough for me to ask for a substantiation of that claim. If they fail to give me that I will adopt a very clear against stance.
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