#1
My guitar teacher told me to try to see scales and their positions as more than just 5 shapes, but instead kind of a big 1 shape. I barely remember what he said because it was a long time ago when I used to take lessons, and I can't really explain it that well. But I hope you get what I mean. Does anyone see their scales like this? no shapes, just notes around the fretboard that are inside the scale. Is there anything I can do to make myself think like this?
thanks.
#2
Quote by snubbie
My guitar teacher told me to try to see scales and their positions as more than just 5 shapes, but instead kind of a big 1 shape. I barely remember what he said because it was a long time ago when I used to take lessons, and I can't really explain it that well. But I hope you get what I mean. Does anyone see their scales like this? no shapes, just notes around the fretboard that are inside the scale. Is there anything I can do to make myself think like this?
thanks.


I would recommend getting a beginner theory book, and building up a repertoire.

forget about the "no shapes" thing. There is no reason to ignore something that can strengthen your understanding of the concepts and ability to navigate them on your instrument.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Mar 2, 2012,
#3
Shapes are there, they're an inherent fact of playing the guitar, but it's important to be able to see "past" them and understand what's going on behind them, both in terms of the theory involved but most importantly the sound.
Actually called Mark!

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#4
Practice playing lines and licks that connect two or three of your shapes, that'll help free you from being stuck on one shape.
But boys will be boys and girls have those eyes
that'll cut you to ribbons, sometimes
and all you can do is just wait by the moon
and bleed if it's what she says you ought to do
#5
Quote by steven seagull
Shapes are there, they're an inherent fact of playing the guitar, but it's important to be able to see "past" them and understand what's going on behind them, both in terms of the theory involved but most importantly the sound.



I disagree. They aren't something to see "past". They are something to see in conjunction with things you should hear and understand. Using the shapes properly will serve to reinforce your knowledge, and increase your ability to apply that knowledge on the instrument.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Mar 3, 2012,
#6
Quote by GuitarMunky
I disagree. They aren't something to see "past". there are just part of learning. Use them properly and they will be helpful.

I give up, you're just an argumentative prick.

Even when I'm trying to agree with you, you somehow manage to turn it into a fight.
Actually called Mark!

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...it's a seagull

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#7
Quote by steven seagull
I give up, you're just an argumentative prick.

Even when I'm trying to agree with you, you somehow manage to turn it into a fight.


because you won't give up on this idea that shapes are somehow responsible for your past mistakes in regards to approach. Just let it go, it's not the shapes fault if you learned them without the proper foundation.
shred is gaudy music
#8
Quote by GuitarMunky
because you won't give up on this idea that shapes are somehow responsible for your past mistakes in regards to approach. Just let it go, it's not the shapes fault if you learned them without the proper foundation.

I have no idea wht kind of drugs you are on
Actually called Mark!

Quote by TNfootballfan62
People with a duck for their avatar always give good advice.

...it's a seagull

Quote by Dave_Mc
i wanna see a clip of a recto buying some groceries.


stuffmycatswatchontv.tumblr.com
#9
Quote by steven seagull
I have no idea wht kind of drugs you are on


Why you want some?
shred is gaudy music
#10
Quote by snubbie
My guitar teacher told me to try to see scales and their positions as more than just 5 shapes, but instead kind of a big 1 shape. I barely remember what he said because it was a long time ago when I used to take lessons, and I can't really explain it that well. But I hope you get what I mean. Does anyone see their scales like this? no shapes, just notes around the fretboard that are inside the scale. Is there anything I can do to make myself think like this?
thanks.


I doubt he wanted you to forget about the positions/shapes you'd learned. His suggestion was probably related to trying to free yourself from being stuck in ONE shape. This means developing the "big picture" and being able to move between position whenever it suites a line or is convenient. It requires a stronger visualization of the fretboard, and obviously a greater command.

Try running scales but moving up or down a position each string. It's a great exercise to help you learn and visualize where these positions are overlapping.
#11
Quote by snubbie
My guitar teacher told me to try to see scales and their positions as more than just 5 shapes, but instead kind of a big 1 shape. I barely remember what he said because it was a long time ago when I used to take lessons, and I can't really explain it that well. But I hope you get what I mean. Does anyone see their scales like this? no shapes, just notes around the fretboard that are inside the scale. Is there anything I can do to make myself think like this?
thanks.


Couple of things:

First of all, as you get better, you'll find yourself naturally able to extend the shapes you know because you'll know the sounds you're looking for, and how to get those sounds.

Related to this, rather than rush out to learn a scale all over the fretboard, get one position of it under your fingers - so you know it intuitively, without thinking about your fingers, and USE IT, so that you get the sound of it in your head. The SOUND, not the SHAPE, is the key to making music. And as I said before, once you have the sound in your head, you'll be able to use it anywhere.

Second, the reality is that most really good guitarists know every note on the fretboard instantly. They also know what notes are in each scale they use. (The first thing requires some dedicated study. The second comes naturally once you know the first thing and you know your scale). So they don't have to think in terms of shapes, they can think in terms of notes.
#12
^ again this idea that you should not think in terms of shapes but only in notes / sound flies in the face of common sense.

The sound, where that sound can be found on the instrument (the shape)..... it all goes together. There is no reason to ignore one for the other when you can just be aware of both. Let your awareness of the shape work for you. it gives you something to attach those sounds to, as well as the note names.

The problem people have is when they just randomly learn stuff without any connection to the appropriate context and without having the proper foundation. This is a common mistake people make, and it happens with more than just shapes.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Mar 3, 2012,
#13
Quote by HotspurJr

Second, the reality is that most really good guitarists know every note on the fretboard instantly. They also know what notes are in each scale they use. (The first thing requires some dedicated study. The second comes naturally once you know the first thing and you know your scale). So they don't have to think in terms of shapes, they can think in terms of notes.


That is perhaps true of some jazz and classical guys, but is certainly not true of rock players, or players of most other genres. Guitarists have an advantage that, for example, brass guys don't have as we can visualise patterns on the fretboard - sometimes this advantage becomes a disadvantage for lazy guitarists who get stuck, but I think GuitarMunky is onto something. I agree completely with the first half of your post btw.
But boys will be boys and girls have those eyes
that'll cut you to ribbons, sometimes
and all you can do is just wait by the moon
and bleed if it's what she says you ought to do
#14
Quote by GuitarMunky
^ again this idea that you should not think in terms of shapes but only in notes / sound flies in the face of common sense.

The sound, where that sound can be found on the instrument (the shape)..... it all goes together. There is no reason to ignore one for the other when you can just be aware of both. Let your awareness of the shape work for you. it gives you something to attach those sounds to, as well as the note names.


Well, be fair. I wasn't saying not to learn shapes.

I was saying to learn one shape first, and use that as a vehicle to help you learn the sound.

The problem I see again and again is players who know all the shapes - but that puts their attention on what their fingers are doing rather than what their ears are hearing. My feeling is that players want to get to a place where they're NOT thinking about their fingers as quickly as possible - and the way you do that is you learn ONE shape, and then you use it until it's intuitive and internalized and your ears have caught up with your fingers.

I think that learning more shapes before you've internalized the sounds gives you a false sense of development - you think you've learned more than you have. And it also slows you down because it's harder to internalized a bunch of shapes than it is to internalize one.

But my position is not "no shapes!"
#15
Quote by HotspurJr
Well, be fair. I wasn't saying not to learn shapes.

I was saying to learn one shape first, and use that as a vehicle to help you learn the sound.


I think we probably actually agree for the most part. Had the shape caution vibe not been there Id probably have left it alone. I see alot of that here (and only here), and I personally see it as another problem rather than a solution.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Mar 3, 2012,
#16
I never said "no shapes" either, but Munky is incapable of reading my posts correctly, and has been for the last couple of years.
Actually called Mark!

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...it's a seagull

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#17
Quote by GuitarMunky
I would recommend getting a beginner theory book, and building up a repertoire.

forget about the "no shapes" thing. There is no reason to ignore something that can strengthen your understanding of the concepts and ability to navigate them on your instrument.


i wouldn't forget about "no shapes". it's a very zen approach to playing guitar. it's not to say that you should ignore them -- they CAN help you visualize your fretboard better. but ultimately you should grow past them. i can visualize the fretboard without thinking of shapes. it's not to say that one approach is necessarily better, though.

your teacher said to visualize it as 1 big shape. that's pretty close to what i'm talking about, but not quite a match.

my position is not "shapes!", but nor is it "no shapes!". shapes are the training wheels that strengthen your fingers and, if you put the effort into it, your knowledge of the fretboard. there's no problem with using them -- there is only a problem with relying on them. a well-trained ear and a sound knowledge of theory will get you much farther. but they can all definitely be used in conjunction. they are not mutually exclusive.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#18
I never learned the shapes of 'scales'. I learned the patterns that intervals form on the board. I learned how to play octaves across different strings, then fifths, then fourths... et cetera. Then I learned scale formulas and could play them all on-the-fly. Now I can play any scale or chord almost instantly.

I think that's the best way to go about it. You do a bit more work to begin with to build a foundation by learning your instrument... so you can be lazy and apply anything and everything without effort. Best of all, it transcends instruments. You can then look at a keyboard and see "Aha, Bb major is this..."
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#19
Quote by HotspurJr


I was saying to learn one shape first, and use that as a vehicle to help you learn the sound.

The problem I see again and again is players who know all the shapes - but that puts their attention on what their fingers are doing rather than what their ears are hearing. My feeling is that players want to get to a place where they're NOT thinking about their fingers as quickly as possible - and the way you do that is you learn ONE shape, and then you use it until it's intuitive and internalized and your ears have caught up with your fingers.


Seems right to me.
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