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#1
When I try to use a scale to make some interesting songs it just sounds so.........much like a scale How do you avoid this and get good at using scales to actually help you create music!

And as for modes I understand that each is simply a major or minor scale with altered scale degrees, but when I play different modes, the altered scale degree just doesnt.......fit. In fact it tends to push the whole sound of the scale into one of the other keys entirely! For example an Eb Mixolydian tends to sound like an Ab Major scale w/ the 7th flattened .....why does my whole key center want to gravitate to Ab
Last edited by Go0ber at Mar 5, 2012,
#2
lol

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#3
Quote by Xiaoxi
lol

Something funny CHUCKLES.....or you wanna answer my question?


sorry shouldnt fly off the handle like that. I realize some people on this forum dont understand a SHRED of music theory. Want me to post some tabs for ya BOI? Want me to dumb it down a shade for ya??????
#4
Quote by Go0ber
When I try to use a scale to make some interesting songs it just sounds so.........much like a scale How do you avoid this and get good at using scales to actually help you create music!


i'm guessing that your practice consists a lot of learning and playing scales, with little ear training and theory mixed in. you'll play how you practice -- so if you stick to practicing scales, you're going to play like you're practicing scales.

Quote by Go0ber
And as for modes I understand


let me stop you right there. no, you don't.

Quote by Go0ber
In fact it tends to push the whole sound of the scale into one of the other keys entirely! For example an Eb Mixolydian tends to sound like an Ab Major scale w/ the 7th flattened .....why does my whole key center want to gravitate to Ab


because you're not in Eb mixolydian. you never were. you were in Ab the whole time. now you see why modes are a controversial topic on this forum -- very few people know how to use them. it's not that it's such a difficult topic that is only privileged to a select few, but that most people go out and learn them without having anywhere near a sufficient foundation in music theory.

you want advice? here it is:

1) forget everything you think you know about modes. unconditionally.
2) start learning theory, from the bottom up. go to http://www.musictheory.net and work through each lesson. apply everything you learn from that site to your guitar. do NOT go on to another lesson until you sufficiently understand (to the level that you'd be able to understand it to a beginner) the previous one.
3) train your ear. the same site has some good ear training exercises. start with intervals, then move on to chords and scales. but stay with intervals until you can get them pretty well. i'd say if you can get 6 out of every 10 right, you can start with more advanced ear training drills, like chords and scales.

in the meantime, while doing all three of the above, stop using your fingers to write music, and start using your ear. i think that's the most important thing you need to do. when i write music, it doesn't come from my fingers. i hear something in my head, work with it a little bit, orchestrate it...all the fancy stuff comes later. but i use my ears first. so use your ears first.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#5
He's right^
It sounds like you're stuck within the scale "box". It might be a question of the human quality you put into it using different techniques (slides, bends, vibrato) that make licks more personal.

Also, try improvising while in the dark or with your eyes closed. This will force you to use your ear to navigate your hand up and down the fret board. Do this often and you ear will recognize the intervals easier and your muscle memory of the shapes will aid you as well.

I just find that seeing really stops me, sometimes I just gotta close my eyes and play what I hear in my head. I think it's important not to get too technical about this stuff because you end up focusing too much on the theory of what notes you can actually play, meanwhile you're just repeating the same licks in the same box.
Last edited by devilzdj4 at Mar 5, 2012,
#7
wow. saying xaoxi doesnt know anything about theory.

thats the most retarded statement ever on the music theory forums. EVER.
#8
Quote by Go0ber
Something funny CHUCKLES.....
Yes, your insistence on using scales (incorrectly, might I add), as the basis for your music misunderstanding despite plenty of others reaching out to warn you against it.

sorry shouldnt fly off the handle like that. I realize some people on this forum dont understand a SHRED of music theory. Want me to post some tabs for ya BOI? Want me to dumb it down a shade for ya??????
I know that feel bro.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#9
after going through this guys threads and posts, im safe to say that wow, goober, just wow.

pinnacle of intelligence.
#10
Quote by Go0ber
Something funny CHUCKLES.....or you wanna answer my question?


sorry shouldnt fly off the handle like that. I realize some people on this forum dont understand a SHRED of music theory. Want me to post some tabs for ya BOI? Want me to dumb it down a shade for ya??????

^^The above is a Cryptic Metaphor^^


"To know the truth of history is to realize its ultimate myth and its inevitable ambiguity." Everything is made up and the facts don't matter.


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#11
Quote by AeolianWolf
i'm guessing that your practice consists a lot of learning and playing scales, with little ear training and theory mixed in. you'll play how you practice -- so if you stick to practicing scales, you're going to play like you're practicing scales.


let me stop you right there. no, you don't.


because you're not in Eb mixolydian. you never were. you were in Ab the whole time. now you see why modes are a controversial topic on this forum -- very few people know how to use them. it's not that it's such a difficult topic that is only privileged to a select few, but that most people go out and learn them without having anywhere near a sufficient foundation in music theory.

you want advice? here it is:

1) forget everything you think you know about modes. unconditionally.
2) start learning theory, from the bottom up. go to http://www.musictheory.net and work through each lesson. apply everything you learn from that site to your guitar. do NOT go on to another lesson until you sufficiently understand (to the level that you'd be able to understand it to a beginner) the previous one.
3) train your ear. the same site has some good ear training exercises. start with intervals, then move on to chords and scales. but stay with intervals until you can get them pretty well. i'd say if you can get 6 out of every 10 right, you can start with more advanced ear training drills, like chords and scales.

in the meantime, while doing all three of the above, stop using your fingers to write music, and start using your ear. i think that's the most important thing you need to do. when i write music, it doesn't come from my fingers. i hear something in my head, work with it a little bit, orchestrate it...all the fancy stuff comes later. but i use my ears first. so use your ears first.


This is insane. WHile some of it rings true. My knowledge of Modes is unshakable. I do know music theory AND practice ear training on a daily basis.

How am I in Ab major when im trying to play Eb Mixolydian. The Mixolydian mode is simply a major scale with an altered 7th note. The 7th is lowerd a half step, THUS creating 4 flats total in the scale. What arnt I understanding here? Assuming im using Eb as my root with the 4 flats given the mode........I AM play Eb Mixolydian.

You should be ashamed of yourself sir. You post a bunch of paragraphs trying to be all "zen" with music theory when its YOU who has no idea what hes talking about.

Id be happy to mail you some books on music theory if you would like
Last edited by Go0ber at Mar 5, 2012,
#12
Quote by Xiaoxi
Yes, your insistence on using scales (incorrectly, might I add), as the basis for your music misunderstanding despite plenty of others reaching out to warn you against it.

I know that feel bro.

Priceless! Old guitarist lazy ass over here thinks hes something special because he doesnt know crap about music theory?

I know your type

"you gotta FEEEELLLL the music man"

"I dont like theory stiffling my creativity MAnnnn!"

etc. etc. Sorry son, but your act is not fooling anyone. Have some discipline in your practice before you go knocking others for learning music the CORRECT way.


AMIRITEBRO?
#13
Quote by Go0ber
This is insane. WHile some of it rings true. My knowledge of Modes is unshakable. I do know music theory AND practice ear training on a daily basis.


...modes and scales are still useless.


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Hey guys could you spare a minute to Vote for my band. Go to the site Search our band Listana with CTRL+F for quick and vote Thank you .
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Voted for Patron Çıldırdı.

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#16
Quote by Go0ber
This is insane. WHile some of it rings true. My knowledge of Modes is unshakable. I do know music theory AND practice ear training on a daily basis.

How am I in Ab major when im trying to play Eb Mixolydian. The Mixolydian mode is simply a major scale with an altered 7th note. The 7th is lowerd a half step, THUS creating 4 flats total in the scale. What arnt I understanding here? Assuming im using Eb as my root with the 4 flats given the mode........I AM play Eb Mixolydian.

You should be ashamed of yourself sir. You post a bunch of paragraphs trying to be all "zen" with music theory when its YOU who has no idea what hes talking about.

Id be happy to mail you some books on music theory if you would like


Eb Mixo has the same notes as Ab major. Your ear is geared towards pulling to the sound of a major key/tonality.

You play "Eb mixolydian" over an Ab chord - it is going to sound like Ab major no matter what you do.

You play a line in "Eb mixolydian" without any consideration for what is tonic - it's probably going to end up sounding like Ab major as well.

You write a chord progression with chords from Ab major, then try to play Eb mixolydian over it - it's gonna sound like Ab major.
#17
Quote by Go0ber
When I try to use a scale to make some interesting songs it just sounds so.........much like a scale How do you avoid this and get good at using scales to actually help you create music!

And as for modes I understand that each is simply a major or minor scale with altered scale degrees, but when I play different modes, the altered scale degree just doesnt.......fit. In fact it tends to push the whole sound of the scale into one of the other keys entirely! For example an Eb Mixolydian tends to sound like an Ab Major scale w/ the 7th flattened .....why does my whole key center want to gravitate to Ab

You know, if you took your head out of your arse and humbly admitted that you don't know anywhere near as much as you think you do then you'd learn something.

Scales don't "make music", musicians make music - theory helps you explain what you've written to someone else but it's not going to write it for you. Everyone's right, if you want to make music you don't really want to be thinking about scales, you just want to be thinking about what you want to create.

And yes, your statement about modes is correct, but its only one fact amongst many others that go into defining what modes are and how they function - and without knowing how they function you're not going to know how to apply them effectively.
Actually called Mark!

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#19
In some forums go0ber would called a 'Poe'. Still, he's a good one. Thanks for the laughs.
#21
Goober is literally too stupid to help.

Don't come to a forum asking for help then yell at people WHO DO know what they're talking about when they try and help you. Eejit.
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#22
Guys, either you're being expertly trolled or Goober is so dumb and stubborn as to be beyond help.

I'm leaning towards "troll" myself, but at a certain point it doesn't matter.
#23
Quote by Go0ber
When I try to use a scale to make some interesting songs it just sounds so.........much like a scale How do you avoid this and get good at using scales to actually help you create music!

And as for modes I understand that each is simply a major or minor scale with altered scale degrees, but when I play different modes, the altered scale degree just doesnt.......fit. In fact it tends to push the whole sound of the scale into one of the other keys entirely! For example an Eb Mixolydian tends to sound like an Ab Major scale w/ the 7th flattened .....why does my whole key center want to gravitate to Ab


That's why modes in use aren't simply scales set to major or minor key progressions. They are more tonal in nature. The reason it wants to gravitate is based upon the power of the V chord to resolve to the I - When I teach people, I demonstrate that you have got to know what you are doing.

How?

By getting a solid background in Music theory to that point. Keys, Scales, Cadences, Modulation, Diatonic Harmony and Tonal Harmony concepts. Then you'll understand the power of the V to want to resolve to the I, and why your application to the instrument keeps getting hijacked.

It's complete proof that most people misunderstand the Modes. That's not a slam on you; its just like that for every person that tries and doesn't understand what they are doing, and tends to shorthand theory knowledge by just picking pieces here and there like a vulture eating roadkill.

That's why you fail.

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at Mar 5, 2012,
#24
Let me paraphrase you:

"I know a lot of words, how can I write poetry?"

Music is learnt by playing and listening and not everyone has the ability to write.

If you don't understand this, then you must be too stupid to know you're stupid...
#25
Quote by Sean0913
That's why modes in use aren't simply scales set to major or minor key progressions. They are more tonal in nature. The reason it wants to gravitate is based upon the power of the V chord to resolve to the I - When I teach people, I demonstrate that you have got to know what you are doing.

How?

By getting a solid background in Music theory to that point. Keys, Scales, Cadences, Modulation, Diatonic Harmony and Tonal Harmony concepts. Then you'll understand the power of the V to want to resolve to the I, and why your application to the instrument keeps getting hijacked.

It's complete proof that most people misunderstand the Modes. That's not a slam on you; its just like that for every person that tries and doesn't understand what they are doing, and tends to shorthand theory knowledge by just picking pieces here and there like a vulture eating roadkill.

That's why you fail.

Best,

Sean


Thank you very much for actually answering my question in a decent manner. Lot more helpful than...


YOU DONT KNOW MODES BRO! GO BACK TO STUDYING TRIADS.....DERP
#26
Oh dear... I see where the troll thread came from. Refer to my post on page 3 of troll thread for my reply to this thread.

I don't think he is a troll anymore... I think he is actually... sophomoric...
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#27
Quote by Go0ber
Thank you very much for actually answering my question in a decent manner. Lot more helpful than...


YOU DONT KNOW MODES BRO! GO BACK TO STUDYING TRIADS.....DERP

I answered your question last page, numbnuts.
#28
As has been said, scales and chords when practiced as such only allow you to play as such.

You gotta start just mixing them up and finding what "feels" right, with of course the appropriate amount of theory thrown into the mix to make sure it is right lol. (some are going to argue with that, and they'd be right to!)

Right now I'm a noob who's breaking myself out of the same idea (the box)... so heh.
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#31
Quote by Go0ber
YOU DONT KNOW MODES BRO! GO BACK TO STUDYING TRIADS.....DERP


what's really funny is how true this is.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#32
How am I in Ab major when im trying to play Eb Mixolydian. The Mixolydian mode is simply a major scale with an altered 7th note. The 7th is lowerd a half step, THUS creating 4 flats total in the scale. What arnt I understanding here? Assuming im using Eb as my root with the 4 flats given the mode........I AM play Eb Mixolydian.


Can we agree that the problem here is really not so much the conceptual understanding of what scale degrees make up a mode, but rather the harmonic presence associated with those pitches? Sean was alluding to this above, I believe, though somewhat in the negative.

Go0ber, if you have the means, run a basic two-chord progression of Eb and DbM7 (E-flat and D-flat-major-seventh) into a loop function. Then, play your Eb Mixolydian over it, and remain conscious of NEVER touching an arpeggio or broken chord in your melodic ideas. While not completely practical (patterns outlining arpeggios do function well in certain melodic contexts), this should at least help with hearing Eb Mixolydian as Eb Mixolydian.


P.S. to the skilled: Would any secondary dominant (or more precisely, the dominant of the Mixolydian root) completely destroy the feel of the Mixolydian mode's flat seven, even if the note was avoided while said chord was the harmonic context?
You might could use some double modals.
#34
Quote by AETHERA
Can we agree that the problem here is really not so much the conceptual understanding of what scale degrees make up a mode, but rather the harmonic presence associated with those pitches? Sean was alluding to this above, I believe, though somewhat in the negative.

Go0ber, if you have the means, run a basic two-chord progression of Eb and DbM7 (E-flat and D-flat-major-seventh) into a loop function. Then, play your Eb Mixolydian over it, and remain conscious of NEVER touching an arpeggio or broken chord in your melodic ideas. While not completely practical (patterns outlining arpeggios do function well in certain melodic contexts), this should at least help with hearing Eb Mixolydian as Eb Mixolydian.


P.S. to the skilled: Would any secondary dominant (or more precisely, the dominant of the Mixolydian root) completely destroy the feel of the Mixolydian mode's flat seven, even if the note was avoided while said chord was the harmonic context?


The overwhelming truth is that the point is sort of trivial and singular.

Ok. So, if I can create a static soundscape I can communicate "x" mode, but the more overwhelming truth in how music actually happens...is that these "modes" are pieces in a bigger construct - the key.

If I'm in a major key, but have a section or chord that implies Mixolydian - is the piece all of a sudden Mixolydian...or it a major key with mode mixture? Which mechanism is more useful and all encompassing?
#35
Quote by chronowarp
The overwhelming truth is that the point is sort of trivial and singular.

Ok. So, if I can create a static soundscape I can communicate "x" mode, but the more overwhelming truth in how music actually happens...is that these "modes" are pieces in a bigger construct - the key.

If I'm in a major key, but have a section or chord that implies Mixolydian - is the piece all of a sudden Mixolydian...or it a major key with mode mixture? Which mechanism is more useful and all encompassing?


this is EXACTLY how i think of it.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#36
I love modes !!! At first, I would look cool in front of my friends because I could play diatonically and add accidentals and pretend I was using modes and everybody was amazed. But now it's even better !! Since every guitarists out there tries to learn modes for no apparent reason and every other musician is fed up, I can at last stop pretending and just play a ****ing sharpened 4th and everybody thinks I'm even cooler. Those who know best, know that I'm just adding accidentals and command me for doing so and not pretending I'm playing modal and those who do not know better are convinced I'm a guru because I'm playing lydian !! AWESOME ! How I love my modes...
Last edited by SuperWeirdoUG at Mar 5, 2012,
#37
Quote by Go0ber
Something funny CHUCKLES.....or you wanna answer my question?


sorry shouldnt fly off the handle like that. I realize some people on this forum dont understand a SHRED of music theory. Want me to post some tabs for ya BOI? Want me to dumb it down a shade for ya??????


As funny as leprosy.

On a side note im gunna check that theory site out so I can translate whats going on.
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