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#1
I want to begin analyzing music, could you tell me some good/interesting pieces I could analyze? Preferably something classical.


Thanks,
#2
Bach's 1st prelude from Well Tempered Clavier #1. It may seem simple, and in some ways, it is. But if you analyze it correctly and effectively, you will see that it basically covers the entirety of western tonal music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0egJr6nvCQI

http://imslp.org/wiki/Special:IMSLPDisclaimerAccept/81759

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#3
Quote by Xiaoxi
Bach's 1st prelude from Well Tempered Clavier #1. It may seem simple, and in some ways, it is. But if you analyze it correctly and effectively, you will see that it basically covers the entirety of western tonal music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0egJr6nvCQI

http://imslp.org/wiki/Special:IMSLPDisclaimerAccept/81759



Sounds interesting. Will get to work in it right away!
Thanks!
#4
Post your analysis up here if you can

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#5
Quote by Xiaoxi
Post your analysis up here if you can


Will do.


EDIT: Ok... this was not as easy as I thought. Xiaoxi, I'll PM you some questions aye? I got too much to ask to post in this thread.
Last edited by MaddMann274 at Mar 5, 2012,
#7
Quote by Xiaoxi
Post your analysis up here if you can

+1

I did this as an independent analysis project for a class a year and a half ago or so, and I'd be interested to see what you come up with. It's surprising how much is actually in such a seemingly simple piece.
#8
Quote by Sean0913
While My Guitar Gently Weeps. Analyze the Chord progression and demonstrate why it works.

Best,

Sean


Chord Progression: Am - Am/G - D - F - Am - G - D - E
and then the key changes from A minor to A major. Which is called a parallel modulation right? << not sure.
That progression is: A - C#m - F#m - C#m - Bm

Not sure what you mean by demonstration.


Could you show me how to properly analyze this?
#9
Quote by MaddMann274
Chord Progression: Am - Am/G - D - F - Am - G - D - E
and then the key changes from A minor to A major. Which is called a parallel modulation right? << not sure.
That progression is: A - C#m - F#m - C#m - Bm

Not sure what you mean by demonstration.


Could you show me how to properly analyze this?


Check out Nicholas Cook's "A Guide to Musical Analysis". I believe the chapter on Schenkerian analysis goes through several different analysis techniques, and gives some insight on analysis in general (I'm not suggesting you should actually do a Schencker style analysis, btw).
#11
ok, here is my analysis of the Bach piece (upto bar 8)...

Chord Progression:C - Dm/C - Dm6/B - C - Am/C - D/C - Dsus4/B - C/B

On the sixth bar, the key changes to a D major I think. That's where it confuses me.
Can you guys help me out?
#12
^Try put it in terms of I - ii - iii - IV - V - vi - vii (lower case for minor, upper for major... so when a minor becomes a major you can upper case the sucker).

Try indicate whether the chord is a 7th as well. The one thing to learn is how the inversions are written. There's nothing really wrong with saying what the chords are... but it's kind of better working with the roman numeral system as well.

*I also need to start doing this - have heard some fascinating pieces lately and really want to find out what they're doing... but I won't hijack your thread until someone makes an analysis thread sticky thing*
Last edited by evolucian at Mar 6, 2012,
#13
Quote by MaddMann274
ok, here is my analysis of the Bach piece (upto bar 8)...

Chord Progression:C - Dm/C - Dm6/B - C - Am/C - D/C - Dsus4/B - C/B

On the sixth bar, the key changes to a D major I think. That's where it confuses me.
Can you guys help me out?

I'll take a look in the morning, too late to think at the moment.
#14
Quote by MaddMann274
ok, here is my analysis of the Bach piece (upto bar 8)...

Chord Progression:C - Dm/C - Dm6/B - C - Am/C - D/C - Dsus4/B - C/B

On the sixth bar, the key changes to a D major I think. That's where it confuses me.
Can you guys help me out?


Cmaj - Dm7/C - G7/B - C - Am/C - D7/C - G/B - Cmaj7/B

C: I - ii 4/3 - V 6/5 - I - vi 6 - [V 4/3] -> V 6 -> I 4/3

the key doesn't change for another couple of measures -- you're still in C. first, check your analysis against mine to see where you didn't analyze it correctly. second, continue. that Cmaj7/B is where i argue that the key begins to change.

oh, and, if you have any questions, feel free to ask.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
Last edited by AeolianWolf at Mar 6, 2012,
#15
Quote by AeolianWolf
Cmaj - Dm7/C - G7/B - C - Am/C - D7/C - G/B - Cmaj7/B

C: I - ii 4/3 - V 6/5 - I - vi 6 - [V 4/3] -> V 6 -> I 4/3

the key doesn't change for another couple of measures -- you're still in C. first, check your analysis against mine to see where you didn't analyze it correctly. second, continue. that Cmaj7/B is where i argue that the key begins to change.

oh, and, if you have any questions, feel free to ask.



What do those numbers next to the Roman numerals mean?

EDIT: and here's the full analysis...

Chord Progression: C - Dm7/C - G7/B - C - Am/C - D7/C - G/B - C7/B - C/A - D7 - G - Gdim - D/F - Fdim - C/E - F7/E - F6/D - G7 - C - C7 - Am/F - F#dim - Abdim - G7 - C/G - Gsus4 - G7 - F#dim/G - C/G - Gsus4 - G7 - C7 - F/C - G7/C - C

How is it?
and I couldn't figure out what the key change was.

Another question, when you analyze, do you just figure out the chord progression? What else do you do?
Last edited by MaddMann274 at Mar 6, 2012,
#16
@MaddMann274, wow the chords are some kind of broken. I guess, that is really nice blend. play that chords in other way to compose some kind of new melody. Thanks by the way
#17
Quote by MaddMann274
Chord Progression: C - Dm7/C - G7/B - C - Am/C - D7/C - G/B - C7/B - C/A - D7 - G - Gdim - D/F - Fdim - C/E - F7/E - F6/D - G7 - C - C7 - Am/F - F#dim - Abdim - G7 - C/G - Gsus4 - G7 - F#dim/G - C/G - Gsus4 - G7 - C7 - F/C - G7/C - C


C - Dm7/C - G7/B - C - Am/C - D7/C - G/B - Cmaj7/B - Am7 - D7 - G - C#dim - Dm/F - Bdim - C/E - Fmaj7/E - Dm7 - G7 - C - C7 - Fmaj7 - F#dim - ?Bdim/Ab? - G7 - C/G - Gsus4 - G7 - F#dim/G - C/G - Gsus4 - G7 - C7 - F/C - G7/C - C

well, I"ve fixed and bolded the parts where I think you went wrong... I'm not sure of some either (especially then one I left with question marks)... both the Gsus4... I'm tempted to call it a Dm7/G where the G is a pedal note during the whole resolution, much like the F#dim/G... same thing with the C in the end acting as a pedal

And I agree with Aeolian, I think the modulation starts to be prepared at the Cmaj7/B
Quote by Xiaoxi
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Last edited by mrkeka at Mar 6, 2012,
#18
Quote by griffRG7321
^He actually does an analysis of the Bach prelude in that book.


That's why I mentioned it, somehow I forgot to mention that particular detail in my post, which is odd, as it was the whole point of posting
#19
Quote by MaddMann274
What do those numbers next to the Roman numerals mean?

EDIT: and here's the full analysis...

Chord Progression: C - Dm7/C - G7/B - C - Am/C - D7/C - G/B - C7/B - C/A - D7 - G - Gdim - D/F - Fdim - C/E - F7/E - F6/D - G7 - C - C7 - Am/F - F#dim - Abdim - G7 - C/G - Gsus4 - G7 - F#dim/G - C/G - Gsus4 - G7 - C7 - F/C - G7/C - C

How is it?
and I couldn't figure out what the key change was.

Another question, when you analyze, do you just figure out the chord progression? What else do you do?


It's figured bass. Wikipedia it, I can't be bothered to explain the history and function of it right now. But in analysis, it's useful as it gives some indication of the intervals and sonorities involved in different chord inversions, so in that sense I prefer saying ii6 instead ii b for a first inversion chord.

The numbers describe the interval above the bass. However, it gets complicated because they're nearly always abbreviated, sometimes in different ways.

A standard root position triad contains two notes above the bass, a fifth and a third. So theoretically the figure would be 5/3 (they're not written as fractions, btw, they're stacked in columns), but generally you don't give figures for root position triads, either in figured bass or Roman numeral analyses.

First inversion chords have a third and a sixth, in some permutation or other. So the full figure is 6/3, but this is abbreviated to 6.

So, the full list of standard figures is this, with the full version in brackets, as these are only used in very specific circumstances.

Root position: blank (5/3)
First inversion: 6 (6/3)
Second inversion: 6/4

Seventh: 7 (7/5/3)
Seventh in first inversion: 6/5 (6/5/3)
Seventh in second inversion: 4/3 (6/4/3)
Seventh in third inversion: 4/2, or sometimes even just 2 (6/4/2)

And just to point out, the second chord in your analysis is slightly cumbersome when described in terms of chords. Of course, that describes the sonority perfectly well, but you should be aware that this arises as a consequence of counterpoint rather than harmonic progression. Saying that, obviously ii4/2 makes perfect sense in terms of functional harmony for that progression, but so labeling it misses what is actually going on.

The C in the bass (bar 1) is suspended over the barline to bar 2, where it is made dissonant by the changing harmony in the voices (except the A). This is one of the text-book examples of a bass suspension.

As for your question what do you do in an analysis, that's an extremely difficult question. As I said in another thread, doing a full chord analysis is the last thing I'd want to do in an analysis. You're trying to make sense of the music, not complicate it. Of course, harmony plays an important role, and doing these chordal analyses are important in training being able to spot what's going on. But generally, I only look at harmony in relation to another aspect of the music, normally phrasing or larger scale structure.

In this, try and spot cadences in the music, as perfect cadences will shed some light on key moments (no pun intended) in the piece. Also:
(Hint: look at the bass line. What do you notice?)

And read the Nicholas Cook book, that should really get you started.
Last edited by National_Anthem at Mar 6, 2012,
#20
Quote by MaddMann274

Another question, when you analyze, do you just figure out the chord progression?


No that would be pretty pointless.

Musical analysis is about understanding how or why a piece works, just writing out the chords doesn't really get you there. Just like writing out all sentences of a text doesn't mean you understand it's content, although it does help.

You can analyze all kinds of things, what you look at depends on the piece really... you need to see what is the main focus of the piece.

I'd say this piece is mostly about the textures that can be created with such rather minimalistic material.

So I suggest you take a good look on how these chords function with each other and also pay attention to the bass notes that are sustained under the arpeggios.
#21
First of all I gotta apologize. Just opened up the PDF in my first post and realized it's pretty hard to read. Here's a much better printed copy: Dover Edition PDF

With that said, let's keep going. MaddMann274, identifying the harmony is an important part of getting to know the music, and I'm glad you did. Although the labels you've given aren't always correct, that's ok. It gives us a good foundation to start with.

But let's go beyond merely labeling harmony. I mean, after all that, is there really anything to be learned? You've listed a bunch of chords. Great, so what? What's the big deal? Did it really give you any insights?

My assumption is that, no, it didn't really reveal anything groundbreaking to you. That's why, now, we need to go beyond the harmony. We need to start looking at the details and looking at the notes with a larger frame in mind so that we can start making connections and discover what Bach was thinking. THAT'S when you really start learning something. Let's just look at the first 2 systems or so (a system is an entire line of staff).

...modes and scales are still useless.


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Last edited by Xiaoxi at Mar 6, 2012,
#22
The first thing we should consider is that music moves horizontally. Listing chords disconnect us from this movement. So let's look at how the notes move from one to the next, rather than just how they're organized in the same block.

All of Bach's music, and most of classical music, is polyphonic, which means that there are more than one LINES (melodies) at the same time. You can actually perceive any music this way, whether it'd be Bach or Britney Spears or Dizzie Gillespie or Bjork or Megadeth. It's just that the polyphony in Bach is much more consistent, and he consciously keeps track of each individual line. With that in mind, let's lay out the notes like this (skipping repetitions):

1: E  F  F  E  A  D  G  C  C  
2: C  D  D  C  E  A  D  G  G
3: G  A  G  G  A  F# G  E  E
4: E  D  D  E  E  D  D  C  C
5: C  C  B  C  C  C  B  B  A


So rather than looking at the notes vertically as harmony, let's look horizontally as lines. In that way, this prelude has 5 voices. Instead of seeing E C G E C for the first chord, check out the 5th voice for example:

5: C C B C C C B B A.

Now, really start to think about the characteristics of this line. Singing it would really help. In your harmonic analysis, the harmony changes with every new measure. So then, how is it that this line is so...flat? Look at how many C's there. It just keeps staying on C, with the B as a leading tone to keep pointing back to C. It's not till the 3rd system in which it finally moves to A. Keep going with this line. What do you notice about it? Contrast where it is at the beginning and where it is at the end of the piece.

Notice that voices 3 and 4 are similar to 5 in these characteristics.

Now, we do need to account for the harmonies as well. I've fixed a few chords for you:
C - Dm7/C - G7/B - C - Am/C - D7/C - G/B - Cmaj7/B - Amin7

All harmonies can be broken down into 3 categories: tonic (T), subdominant (S), dominant (D). Tonics are harmonies that are kind of like "homes". There is a permanent home (the central key), and temporary homes. Starting from home, you can go anywhere. Dominants are chords that want to lead to home. Subdominants are chords that want to lead to the dominants. As you can imagine, harmonies can take on more than 1 function at a time. With this mind mind, let's review the harmonic layout again:

T - S - D - T - T - S/D - D - T - T

Look at this in blocks of 4 chords. Notice a pattern? Anything else that's cool about this?

We'll stop here for now. You should have plenty of things to check out in just these few bars.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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Last edited by Xiaoxi at Mar 6, 2012,
#23
yeah, i've always thought of that "Bdim/Ab" measure in particular as just being a Bº7 in third inversion, using the C as a passing tone. i'm going to make a few small edits to the analysis you gave:

Quote by mrkeka
C - Dm7/C - G7/B - C - Am/C - D7/C - G/B - Cmaj7/B - Am7 - D7 - G - C#dim/G - Dm/F - Bdim/F - C/E - Fmaj7/E - Dm7 - G7 - C - C7 - Fmaj7 - F#dim - Bdim/Ab - G7 - C/G - G7sus4 - G7 - F#dim/G - C/G - G7sus4 - G7 - C7 - Fmaj7/C - G7/C - C


but, as is being stated, that hardly does anything for you -- take some time to absorb and study the voicing, which, in my opinion, is really the most impressive thing about this piece. it's so harmonically and texturally simple, but it's so brilliantly voiced.

pay close attention to the soprano and the bass, but don't ignore the inner voices, either.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
Last edited by AeolianWolf at Mar 6, 2012,
#24
Nicely explained xiaoxi. +1 for you sir.

and a +1 for wolfy

Personally I picked something easier (one of Chopin's nocturnes)... still labouring through it. But definitely picking up on the form and patterns. One day I'll try one of his etudes (goddam mofo)
Last edited by evolucian at Mar 6, 2012,
#25
When anaylising I look at different 'sections'
1. Structure (Rondo, Binary etc)
2. Texture (Polyphonic, monophonic etc)
3. Rhythm (motifs, ideas etc)
4. Tonality (What Key?, any modulations)
5. Harmony (intervals, diatonic etc)
6. Forces (what instruments used, how are they used (specific techniques on that instruments))
7. Melody (Scalic, arpeggic, diatonic, melismatic)

Hope heading give you something to work on

Have a look at Beethoven's Septet in Eb, Op. 20.
#26
Quote by evolucian

Personally I picked something easier (one of Chopin's nocturnes)... still labouring through it. But definitely picking up on the form and patterns. One day I'll try one of his etudes (goddam mofo)

I don't think Chopin would be easier, nor would it be more clear cut than this Bach prelude. This prelude is so important in its simplicity and how it still manages to capture the essence of tonal music.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#27
^For me it is... as I struggle to read that F clef (or most sheet for that matter). The nocturne is easy in that its an arpeggiated left hand with subtle things here and there (which helps in my reading more bass clef) and mostly a slower melody (opus 72 no.1). So its not too many voices for me to be concerned about. Just a matter of finding patterns. And I connect more with the Chopin thing (except for his sonata's that blow my mind... and the polony specials and the mazurkas cos I don't even know what those dance forms sounded like and too daft to pick up a march apparently).

I won't argue about Bach cos his music is great and a tool to work with... but baby steps for me. Same way I love Schubert's Symphony no.9 cos thats what I'd like in my own. But, alas... baby steps.

*edit* Played through this Bach piece, beautiful it is... I do understand it... and I'll probably come to the same conclusions as some others, even though I was supposed to analyse and not play. Your post helped and was well written in explanation and seeing it. Which I still commend you for.
Last edited by evolucian at Mar 6, 2012,
#28
Quote by MaddMann274
Chord Progression: Am - Am/G - D - F - Am - G - D - E
and then the key changes from A minor to A major. Which is called a parallel modulation right? << not sure.
That progression is: A - C#m - F#m - C#m - Bm

Not sure what you mean by demonstration.


Could you show me how to properly analyze this?


That was pretty good, MaddMann - the "reason" it worked, IMO was because of the power of the V - I.

In Am, it functioned as a Harmonic Minor based prog, and at the E Major it basically converted in context to a V to an A Major Chord.

Best,

Sean
#29
Quote by evolucian
^For me it is... as I struggle to read that F clef (or most sheet for that matter). The nocturne is easy in that its an arpeggiated left hand with subtle things here and there (which helps in my reading more bass clef) and mostly a slower melody (opus 72 no.1). So its not too many voices for me to be concerned about.
Ah, but I bet you there actually are a lot of voices, they're just not as obvious. lol I'm just having a really tough time imagining that Chopin is easier to analyze. I guess it all depends on how you're looking at it.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#30
Quote by Sean0913
That was pretty good, MaddMann - the "reason" it worked, IMO was because of the power of the V - I.

In Am, it functioned as a Harmonic Minor based prog, and at the E Major it basically converted in context to a V to an A Major Chord.

Best,

Sean

Oh man, Sean, I hate to do this to you but...........this is all wrong.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#31
^In all honesty it probably won't be easier, hehe. I know Chopin is an evil bastard when it came to writing and playing. Although it seems easier I'll admit it isn't as easy as the Bach example. But I'm learning the forms as well. Fortunately one of the lp's I bought had this huge insert where a guy explained the difference between classical/traditional and romantic eras. That was a huge help cos no one could actually tell me. Granted, it was a summary but it helped.

While going through the one Schoenberg book, I wasn't able to hear the actual antecedent and consequent phrases he was talking about (Beethoven) so I put on a Mozart piece and it was as clear as day... along with the diminutions and further development of ideas and the B section, etc etc. All in the quest to one day make a sonata. Or actually, just all in the quest to do it properly instead of sucking it out of my thumb.

When I get to fugue I'll be sure to ask for your help or just add to the fugue thread of yours and get whomever to help. Cos that bitch has always confused me totally. But I'll probably find something to listen to that might clear it up as well.

The whole thing with Chopin is to also follow his logic with connecting things. Though I sometimes fail to see the logic of why I hit the play button, hehe.
#33
Quote by Xiaoxi
Oh man, Sean, I hate to do this to you but...........this is all wrong.


No problem man, what did I miss?

I look at this as the modulation happening around the E. I admit I'm not formally/conservatory trained but:

Am - Am/G - D - F - Am - G - D - E

is tonally in A isn't it - the D isn't from the minor but borrowed from major, I believe. E is the V which would indicate to me to be from the Harmonic Minor. Because it goes to A I'd see this as the pivot chord, as a V-I, but maybe I'm missing something else?

A - C#m - F#m - C#m - Bm

Is a I iii vi iii ii in A major? The E major "smoothing the modulation"? as a V-I to A. Or would we just argue that tonally there is no key change at all, that it's all still in A - if so, I'd agree with that.

This is why I put "In my opinion" as to why they were able to pull it off, and not more as a theoretical statement of fact. I'll defer to you to point out what I missed. As a self taught guy, I acknowledge that its quite possible there's times where I might have missed something, and that there may be more to it than just what I said.

I look forward to hearing your points, Xiaoxi. I wonder if it's one of those things that are hidden in plain sight, like when I "lose" my keys and they are on the shelf in front of me the whole time?

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at Mar 7, 2012,
#34
Quote by Xiaoxi


All of Bach's music, and most of classical music, is polyphonic, which means that there are more than one LINES (melodies) at the same time.


I'd like to challenge that point. Of course what you say is true in the sense that in most music is multi-linear. Whether lines are real, or implied (for example in monophonic textures that imply a harmony, or even multiple voices, with only one "line"), virtually all music from 1600 to the 20th Century (and beyond, even) operates in this way.

But I think you're distorting the definitions as they are most commonly used. Monophonic, homophonic and polyphonic textures all have different implications, and polyphonic definitely has associations that I would not make with this prelude. To me, it's a prime example of homophony, despite the arpeggiations, it's a five-part chorale that could be played as block-chords, and we would still make sense of the music in the same way, only it's character would be altered.

I know what you were trying to say, but as a blanket statement, I find it a little misleading.

I've done a little map. I've omitted some repeated notes, and bracketed some others. What's left is a descending scale from C to C, some chromatic wandering, dominant pedal, final cadence to tonic (with dissonant harmonies on top, acting as a prolongation, that eventually resolve to C major). Notice the bracketed bass notes actually act as a dominant to what comes after.



This is a gross simplification. But hopefully it shows something of it's "large-scale" structure.
#35
Quote by Sean0913
No problem man, what did I miss?

I look at this as the modulation happening around the E. I admit I'm not formally/conservatory trained but:

Am - Am/G - D - F - Am - G - D - E

is tonally in A isn't it - the D isn't from the minor but borrowed from major, I believe. E is the V which would indicate to me to be from the Harmonic Minor. Because it goes to A I'd see this as the pivot chord, as a V-I, but maybe I'm missing something else?

A - C#m - F#m - C#m - Bm

Is a I iii vi iii ii in A major? The E major "smoothing the modulation"? as a V-I to A. Or would we just argue that tonally there is no key change at all, that it's all still in A - if so, I'd agree with that.

This is why I put "In my opinion" as to why they were able to pull it off, and not more as a theoretical statement of fact. I'll defer to you to point out what I missed. As a self taught guy, I acknowledge that its quite possible there's times where I might have missed something, and that there may be more to it than just what I said.

I look forward to hearing your points, Xiaoxi. I wonder if it's one of those things that are hidden in plain sight, like when I "lose" my keys and they are on the shelf in front of me the whole time?

Best,

Sean

I don't think he's questioning the chord analysis, but the vehicle of the modulation. V doesn't necessarily pull any stronger to a major tonic than a minor - it's really just a direct modulation to the parallel major key, but it doesn't have anything to do with the E anticipating it.
Last edited by chronowarp at Mar 7, 2012,
#36
Hmmm... I guess I need help as to how this Chopin piece would be written. So if anybody is up for it, your help will be appreciated. I'm using the first score here http://imslp.org/wiki/Nocturne_in_E_minor,_Op.72_No.1_%28Chopin,_Fr%C3%A9d%C3%A9ric%29 (the one which is 400k - just in case you missed it).

So here's the first page:

|i (Em)_ _ _ | i(Em) _ _ _ | V7(B7) - i(Em) - |

|V(B7)- i (Em) - |V (B) i(Em) V7(B7) - |III(G) - V(F#7) - |

|i (Bm) - (E#dim7)|V (F#) - - - |V (B7) - i(Em) - |

|i (Em) - - -| V(B7) - i(Em) - | V(B7) - i(Em) -|

|? (Bmaj7) - V (B7)-| v(Bm) V (G7) I (C) - |V (G7) - I (C) -|

|V (A7) - i (Dm) - | V (B7) - i(Em) - | i (Bm) - V (F#) - |


I'd put the rest up but I don't want to bore you to death. Just hoping it's right so far.

*edit* The E#dim7 (line 3) I'm not sure about or what degree to actually give it. The Bmaj7 (line 5) likewise. That G7 following the diminishing of the Bmaj7 could have been Bdim but it made more sense to call it G7 because of the C follow up... was it correct? I mean, I use that movement myself but i usually fragment it so it can be either, depending on the next chord.
Last edited by evolucian at Mar 7, 2012,
#37
I would go as far as saying that this Prelude never modulates. All the chromaticisms can be explained as secondary dominants or other chromatic chords within C major. After all, there is no structural cadence in a key other than C major. What I mean by this is, there are no perfect cadences that coincide with an end of phrase that aren't in C major - I would argue that the cadence in bar 11-12 is a half cadence, rather than a perfect cadence, as it slips immediately back in to C major rather than continuing in G major, this moment seems far to weak to be a confirmation of G major, to me.
#38
^ I agree, I'd say it passes through G major, hinting at the key but not confirming it.
#39
Quote by evolucian

While going through the one Schoenberg book, I wasn't able to hear the actual antecedent and consequent phrases he was talking about (Beethoven) so I put on a Mozart piece and it was as clear as day... along with the diminutions and further development of ideas and the B section, etc etc. All in the quest to one day make a sonata. Or actually, just all in the quest to do it properly instead of sucking it out of my thumb.

When I get to fugue I'll be sure to ask for your help or just add to the fugue thread of yours and get whomever to help. Cos that bitch has always confused me totally. But I'll probably find something to listen to that might clear it up as well.

The two are not unrelated. Both deal with the issue of motivic development, just on different scales. If you do have any questions about sonatas, I'd be happy to talk about it.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#40
Quote by Sean0913
I look forward to hearing your points, Xiaoxi. I wonder if it's one of those things that are hidden in plain sight, like when I "lose" my keys and they are on the shelf in front of me the whole time?

Best,

Sean

OH SHIT

I totally messed up. I thought the post that you were quoting was talking about the prelude and basically NOTHING was matching up. My bad You're right with everything you said, although I just wouldn't emphasize that there's any scalar/modal borrowing.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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