#1
i realise that solid it is betterthan the others but why is so important to have a solid top guitar!!??
i try to buy a guitar and i have many option but every one ensist to get a solid top one?
why to buy a guitar without solid top if it's gonna be useless after some years?
if everybody buy a solid top guitar why there are guitars that being manufactured without sold top?
thats not logic at all...
#2
*insert not sure if troll or not meme...*


Solid tops are much more responsive, rich and dynamic than laminates. I don't know where you got the impression that it would be useless after some years. Maybe some hundred years... Guitars from the 19th century are still played today not to mention the huge market of Martins from before World War II. I doubt you have anything to worry about on a a guitar around $2000 +/- 1000.

Guitars made with laminate parts are much cheaper since they don't need the same sheer surface area as a solid piece. They're also more environmentally friendly since we have such a huge demand for acoustic guitars. Why waste a nice, solid piece of wood on a cheap, poorly constructed guitar?
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#3
a laminate top is 2 or more pieces of wood glued together. that keeps it from vibrating as much as a single piece of wood does, and vibration is what causes sound. also some tops are not as well laminated, so they muffle the tone of the guitar.

i've played a number of guitars that are 80 to 100 years old, and they still play fine, so your guitar with the right care could last longer than you do.
Quote by Skeet UK
I just looked in my Oxford English Dictionary and under "Acoustic Guitar", there was your Avatar and an email address!
#5
Quote by Artemis Entreri

Solid tops are much more responsive, rich and dynamic than laminates. I don't know where you got the impression that it would be useless after some years. Maybe some hundred years... Guitars from the 19th century are still played today not to mention the huge market of Martins from before World War II. I doubt you have anything to worry about on a a guitar around $2000 +/- 1000. ?
Then of course, there's the ever popular Stradivarius violins, which are hundreds of years old.

Whether it's an old wives' tale, or there's any truth to it, cedar top guitars have a reputation for not being as long lived as their spruce topped brethren.

At least to the extent that cedar loses some of its tone as it ages.....(again..???)

Hm, could be urban legend.
Last edited by Captaincranky at Mar 15, 2012,
#6
The Link above is so much win! But yeah Read what has been said. These are the truste guys in this forum. especially patticake over there.
#8
Quote by dragonkidkoga


oh, you DO know how to use google?
.
Capitalization is the difference between "I helped my Uncle Jack off the horse" and "i helped my uncle jack off the horse"
Quote by stepchildusmc
either way your gonna need a big bucket... how you set it under the horse is up to you.
#10
googles are the things they give you in bars that make the 2's look like 10's at closing time. i.e. " i got my beer googles on" or... yep. she's a 16 on the bud scale!
#11
you're just a 3 dressed up as a 9....
.
Capitalization is the difference between "I helped my Uncle Jack off the horse" and "i helped my uncle jack off the horse"
Quote by stepchildusmc
either way your gonna need a big bucket... how you set it under the horse is up to you.
#12
Quote by mike_oxbig
you're just a 3 dressed up as a 9....

Well, remember what Jack Nicholson said, "You want a nine, YOU CAN'T HANDLE A NINE"...!!!
Last edited by Captaincranky at Mar 17, 2012,
#13
Quote by patticake
a laminate top is 2 or more pieces of wood glued together. that keeps it from vibrating as much as a single piece of wood does, and vibration is what causes sound. also some tops are not as well laminated, so they muffle the tone of the guitar.

i've played a number of guitars that are 80 to 100 years old, and they still play fine, so your guitar with the right care could last longer than you do.



well, i wouldn't say the vibration of the wood "causes" sound.

it does a little to shape the tone, but a large portion of that comes from the shape, size, and strings of guitar.


Laminates are cheaper because of the wood they can use to make it, and another big reason for laminates vs solid has to do with humidifying the guitar. Laminates do better in bigger temp changes and work better without humidifying and conditioning the wood. you have to take better care of solid wood, but the tone will usually be more dynamic
#14
Quote by kai29
well, i wouldn't say the vibration of the wood "causes" sound.

I prithee tell me then, "why do they call the top of an acoustic guitar the soundboard"?

Try this experiment, run a set of guitar strings between two fixed, very massive, stationary points. Strum away to your heart's content. Get back to me when you figure out how much sound that WON'T produce.

OK, you had your turn, now I get to say something breathtaking in its stupidity.

"I wouldn't say the cone of a loudspeaker produces any sound, it's the vibrations of the voice coil moving back and forth"!

Get back to me if if feel you either need a better, more in depth discussion on sound wave propagation in air, or you'd simply like a round two on the existing dialog.
Last edited by Captaincranky at Mar 17, 2012,
#15
and that has something to do with ugly chicks and beer how cranky? clearly you've thread-jacked this very important discussion on the validity of the bud scale as it pertains to dating!
#16
Quote by stepchildusmc
and that has something to do with ugly chicks and beer how cranky? clearly you've thread-jacked this very important discussion on the validity of the bud scale as it pertains to dating!
Well, if the "Bud Scale", and "ugly chicks" had anything to do with actual, "dating", I would have indeed stood guilty of , "thread jacking".

However, "the Bud Scale" method, is more akin to hacking into a porn site, and getting away with as many movies and photos as possible, without leaving your credit card information.

In a more tangible sense, it's like giving an escort service a fake name, then writing them a rubber check.

Remember to practice, "safe sex", if you're going to go oout looking for bush, on "Bush". By that I mean, bringing two paper bags, the second one being for your head, in case her's falls off.....
#17
Quote by Captaincranky
Then of course, there's the ever popular Stradivarius violins, which are hundreds of years old.

Whether it's an old wives' tale, or there's any truth to it, cedar top guitars have a reputation for not being as long lived as their spruce topped brethren.

At least to the extent that cedar loses some of its tone as it ages.....(again..???)

Hm, could be urban legend.


I could believe that about cedar, it's a very soft wood, that does degrade after a while, even though it resist rotting, it does become dry, then gets brittle, and kinda denigrates. Just look at a 10 year old cedar fence, it used to be a golden color, now it's a nasty puke gray and breaks easily. But that's also due to exposure...so theres alot of points you have to take into account.
#18
Quote by ethan_hanus
I could believe that about cedar, it's a very soft wood, that does degrade after a while, even though it resist rotting, it does become dry, then gets brittle, and kinda denigrates. Just look at a 10 year old cedar fence, it used to be a golden color, now it's a nasty puke gray and breaks easily. But that's also due to exposure...so theres alot of points you have to take into account.
There's a practically zero correlation between how cedar would react unfinished and exposed to the elements and how it performs finished and used as a guitar top.

Cedar is also used for shingles, and it is expected to turn gray. It will outperform most all other woods exposed to a natural environment, even when unfinished.

Ground contact, (as in a fence post), escalates the jeopardy of material failure, as it never gets to dry out, as it would as a shingle roof. Then there are natural pests and fungi present in soil that will greatly accelerate decomposition.

Given the same exterior exposure as cedar, spruce will not last as long. That's why it isn't put on as a roof. All pine materials will gray out with age if they are unfinished. Spruce, pine and fir are generally lumped together as "white woods" in construction material parlance. However, Douglas Fir is sometimes specified for framing lumber, as it has a higher load bearing ability than most of the others

The question in guitar top usage is much different, and the claim is that spruce "ages in", sounding better with the passage of years, and cedar sounds as good as it's going to from the moment you get it.

In fact, most of the info I've given has little to do with acoustic guitar construction. The wood for an acoustic top, ideally must come from very old, large trees. It is "quarter sawn" and again ideally, comes from the first slice off the first quartering or halving of the log. A little imagination should enable you to visualize that the grain in such a cut, will be at almost a dead right angle to the top plate blank. If the grain angle exceeds 15 degrees, then tone is affected! (At least according to Gibson). So, you can't keep shaving guitar tops off a quarter log, you have to advance around the log in a pie wedge manner, to keep the grain angle where it needs to be.

Quarter sawing is very wasteful, and in fact, much of the lamination material for plywood is shaved off the log by chocking it in a giant lathe! The explains the bizarre wide grain pattern you see in plywood. The lathe is basically slicing wood off the log, one year of growth ring at a time
Last edited by Captaincranky at Mar 17, 2012,
#19
Quote by Captaincranky
I prithee tell me then, "why do they call the top of an acoustic guitar the soundboard"?

Try this experiment, run a set of guitar strings between two fixed, very massive, stationary points. Strum away to your heart's content. Get back to me when you figure out how much sound that WON'T produce.

OK, you had your turn, now I get to say something breathtaking in its stupidity.

"I wouldn't say the cone of a loudspeaker produces any sound, it's the vibrations of the voice coil moving back and forth"!

Get back to me if if feel you either need a better, more in depth discussion on sound wave propagation in air, or you'd simply like a round two on the existing dialog.


I don't see the point of your argument, it has fallacies. And on top of that, you seem to think you know more about the propagation of sound by the arrogant way you type.

You'll have to explain yourself more than this. (Your other arguments are more tasteful, and this one should be able to hold up to the standard you set)
Last edited by kai29 at Mar 18, 2012,
#20
Quote by kai29
I don't see the point of your argument, it has fallacies. And on top of that, you seem to think you know more about the propagation of sound by the arrogant way you type.
No, my "argument" does not have any fallacies, you're just flat out wrong about the function of the strings and the soundboard.

Sound is propagated in air by creating a sound wave. It consist of a positive portion, (compression (higher pressure than the prevailing atmosphere)), and a negative portion, (rarefaction (lower pressure than prevailing atmosphere). The physical distance between the start of the compression and the end of the rarefaction, is called the "wavelength", and the wavelength determines the frequency. The more air that is moved, (displaced), the louder the sound. So, the strings of a guitar, or the voice coil of a loudspeaker aren't, by themselves, capable of displacing much air. So, the guitar's soundboard, and a loudspeaker cone, are the end stages of what is fashionably called these days, "a transducer". The strings transmit mechanical energy to the soundboard, which moves in sympathetic resonance, displaces air and creates sound waves. The voice coil and magnetic structure in a loudspeaker are the "motor" which supplies energy to the cone which does the whole compression / rarefaction thing to the air in front of it, creating sound waves.

You've made little to no sense in either post I've replied to, simply by virtue of the fact you've ignored the patently obvious. A solid body electric is very quiet when it's not plugged in, because the body isn't designed to displace air. Strings vibrate over electro magnetic pickups creating the exact opposite result as a loudspeaker. You put energy in, and get electricity out. If you stood in front of a loudspeaker and talked into it, you would get a measurable electrical signal out of it. So yeah, a loudspeaker turns into a microphone if you put energy into the cone. It isn't designed to be a mic, and therefore wouldn't be a good one, in case you were going to ask.

As to whether the function of the soundboard is to simply "color the sound", it isn't. It does color the sound because all natural and synthetic materials have inherent resonant frequencies, are able to resonate with applied mechanical energy, and the capability to generate a harmonic component of a primary applied fundamental frequency. (To one degree or another).

If you think I'm rude, you're probably right. With that said, this isn't much more than 5th grade physics, and Wikipedia or your local public school system would be of great assistance, and quite a bit more helpful than I intend to be, in aiding you to assimilate these fairly basic concepts.
Last edited by Captaincranky at Mar 18, 2012,
#21
Quote by Captaincranky
No, my "argument" does not have any fallacies, you're just flat out wrong about the function of the strings and the soundboard.

Sound is propagated in air by creating a sound wave. It consist of a positive portion, (compression (higher pressure than the prevailing atmosphere)), and a negative portion, (rarefaction (lower pressure than prevailing atmosphere). The physical distance between the start of the compression and the end of the rarefaction, is called the "wavelength", and the wavelength determines the frequency. The more air that is moved, (displaced), the louder the sound. So, the strings of a guitar, or the voice coil of a loudspeaker aren't, by themselves, capable of displacing much air. So, the guitar's soundboard, and a loudspeaker cone, are the end stages of what is fashionably called these days, "a transducer". The strings transmit mechanical energy to the soundboard, which moves in sympathetic resonance, displaces air and creates sound waves. The voice coil and magnetic structure in a loudspeaker are the "motor" which supplies energy to the cone which does the whole compression / rarefaction thing to the air in front of it, creating sound waves.

You've made little to no sense in either post I've replied to, simply by virtue of the fact you've ignored the patently obvious. A solid body electric is very quiet when it's not plugged in, because the body isn't designed to displace air. Strings vibrate over electro magnetic pickups creating the exact opposite result as a loudspeaker. You put energy in, and get electricity out. If you stood in front of a loudspeaker and talked into it, you would get a measurable electrical signal out of it. So yeah, a loudspeaker turns into a microphone if you put energy into the cone. It isn't designed to be a mic, and therefore wouldn't be a good one, in case you were going to ask.

As to whether the function of the soundboard is to simply "color the sound", it isn't. It does color the sound because all natural and synthetic materials have inherent resonant frequencies, are able to resonate with applied mechanical energy, and the capability to generate a harmonic component of a primary applied fundamental frequency. (To one degree or another).

If you think I'm rude, you're probably right. With that said, this isn't much more than 5th grade physics, and Wikipedia or your local public school system would be of great assistance, and quite a bit more helpful than I intend to be, in aiding you to assimilate these fairly basic concepts.



actually there are fallacies in your original argument with me.

also, in my original post, i never said what the cause of the sound is, I just said that the size and shape and strings help shape tone or "timbre". (that's part of a fallacy in your argument) I already understand how sound in propagates through air, and understand the "physics" of it as well as how speakers work.

also there are many components as to how the guitar emits acoustical radiation.

The vibration of the wood helps the sound to radiate more efficiently (in perspective to our ears), but doesn't cause the sound.- which is why I wouldn't say the vibration of the wood (soundboard, or top) causes sound. In fact I wasn't even arguing with patticake, I was just clarifying something that could be misinterpreted.
#22
Quote by kai29


The vibration of the wood helps the sound to radiate more efficiently (in perspective to our ears), but doesn't cause the sound.- which is why I wouldn't say the vibration of the wood (soundboard, or top) causes sound. In fact I wasn't even arguing with patticake, I was just clarifying something that could be misinterpreted.
OK, then why don't you explain the sound propagation principles behind an Ovation guitar, and work it in with the rest of your "understanding of physics".. Because now you're just speaking doggerel. And no, you're not "clarifying something that could be misinterpreted", you're muddying up something which should be patently obvious.

Unless of course I'm "misinterpreting you". (Yet again).

Since the soundboard isn't really responsible for the, "production of sound" per se, you might take another minute or so to explain the phenomenon whereby laminated soundboards or even solid top guitars with too heavy a finish applied, aren't as loud as a correctly finished solid top instrument. They simply don't seem to make as much sound, why?

Take a moment to ponder or explain this, "why does a loudspeaker need a baffle or enclosure"?

OK, so you also have what's behind door number 3 as an option. Get your act together from an English semantics perspective, as that would make you less susceptible to misinterpretation.

That said, I'm going to contend that there's also a bigger jump in "tonal quality" of sound, when moving from a laminated top instrument, to a solid top instrument, than there is moving from solid top, lam back & sides, to solid top, solid B & S guitar. The success of Martin's "X" series, and Seagull's "original "S-6" tend to bear this out.

That is in deference to either the soundboard as being the principle producer of sound, or it being the principle factor in the tonal coloration of the sound.
Last edited by Captaincranky at Mar 18, 2012,
#24
Quote by stepchildusmc
we are getting way off topic of beer and fat chicks !
Indeed we have, sorry. That still doesn't dismiss the validity of dragging an acoustic guitar into the realm of existentialist debate. To wit, "if the soundboard of an acoustic guitar vibrates in the forest, and nobody is around to "hear" it, does it make a sound"? Some would say yes. Some would say no. A sensible person would say, "where the hell are you going to find a forest to test this out on nowadays".

As to, "fat chicks", the level of morbid obesity in the US has gotten to the point where there almost no, "skinny chicks", to compare them with.

At this juncture, I would venture to say there's a game afoot, in that we'll now to just be forced call them "chicks", by virtue of there not being another kind. Well, that and we'll have to listen to a bunch of crap in, "Cosmopolitan", for being sexist pigs for calling them "chicks", fat or otherwise, in the first place. Helen Gurley Brown is probably squirming around in her "Depends" about this, even as we speak.

A total coup by, "obese rights groups", if you ask me....

On the other hand, there is, "tactical celebrity obesity". That's when you become a star, but can't control you eating habits, get too fat to be thought of as an "ingenue", and can no longer get work playing Brad Pitt's girlfriend.

Wah'la (*), you land a big contract with Jenny Craig or Weight Watchers, and continue to stuff your pie hole in the manner to which you have become accustomed.

(*) "Viola", as in the French interjection, phonetically. Just trying for my customary precision, since the, "viola", is also a musical instrument in the violin family.

I hope this post has provided the necessary, "fat chick banter", to avert my being branded a "thread jacker".....
Last edited by Captaincranky at Mar 18, 2012,
#25
i was lookin' more for a ' fat chicks are like mopeds... fun to ride but ya don't wanna be seen on one" kinda retort.
#26
Quote by stepchildusmc
i was lookin' more for a ' fat chicks are like mopeds... fun to ride but ya don't wanna be seen on one" kinda retort.
Which is precisely why, when I am elected, I plan to work in concert with all the principle religions to eliminate, "until death do us part", from the traditional wedding vows. This will be superseded by, "Until her enormousnesss do us part".
#28
Quote by Captaincranky

Take a moment to ponder or explain this, "why does a loudspeaker need a baffle or enclosure"?

one of the main purposes of the enclosure is to stop phase cancelation from the sound waves in front vs the ones in back of the speaker. (in simple terms)

secondary purposes are there, but really, that is the main reason

Quote by Captaincranky
That said, I'm going to contend that there's also a bigger jump in "tonal quality" of sound, when moving from a laminated top instrument, to a solid top instrument, than there is moving from solid top, lam back & sides, to solid top, solid B & S guitar. The success of Martin's "X" series, and Seagull's "original "S-6" tend to bear this out.

That is in deference to either the soundboard as being the principle producer of sound, or it being the principle factor in the tonal coloration of the sound.


no reason to contend, no one really says anything opposing that.

in fact, my next acoustic is going to be a seagull perfomer. although, the tonal quality of their guitars seem to be more rich than other solid tops with lam. back and sides of the same price range. Due to the heat here in arizona and the dryness, I don't think I'd have the attention to maintain an all solid wood guitar, plus the laminate looks very good on the performer.
#29
Quote by kai29
one of the main purposes of the enclosure is to stop phase cancelation from the sound waves in front vs the ones in back of the speaker. (in simple terms)

secondary purposes are there, but really, that is the main reason.
Perfect. As long as we give a nod to the fact that the phase cancellation occurs most prominently at lower frequencies.

Quote by kai29
in fact, my next acoustic is going to be a seagull perfomer. although, the tonal quality of their guitars seem to be more rich than other solid tops with lam. back and sides of the same price range. Due to the heat here in arizona and the dryness, I don't think I'd have the attention to maintain an all solid wood guitar, plus the laminate looks very good on the performer.
Yeah. I'm a lefty so Seagull only has a couple of things, "demographically targeted" at me. However, I'm very impressed by their website as being knowledgeable and very sincere. They give the impression they're committed to quality instruments, superlative sound, and environmental responsibility. I don't think to one degree or another you can always successfully fake that. So yeah, If I could, I'd buy the Seagull of my dreams, credit card company permitting. Besides, ya gotta love those pewter preamp control panels.....
Last edited by Captaincranky at Mar 19, 2012,