#1
Hi does anyone know where the Gretsch G6128T-DSV Duo Jet is made? I've heard some people say thats its made in Japan, but that seems kinda cheap for a 2,500 dollar guitar. Theres nothing wrong with Japanese or any other foreign made guitar work, but I would expect that they would make a high quality USA made product for 2,500.
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#3
Depends on the model, the majority of the pro-lines are made in the Terada Factory in Japan.
The electromatics are made in Korea, and the Custom shop ones in the US.

but yeah for the most part Japan
#4
Clearly you've never played one, then. The MIJ Gretsch stuff is made extremely well, certainly better than any of the older USA guitars, which were notorious for shoddy workmanship and parts. There's no magical potion in the water here that makes Americans somehow superior to other people at making guitars.

So stop thinking that only USA made guitars are good. You say "there's nothing wrong with Japanese guitar work" but if you actually believed that, and had actually played one of these, you wouldn't be asking this question.
#5
or you'd look for an american made guitar thats close to the duo jet.

either USA fanboi.

or gretsch fanboi.

not sure which.
Prs se Holcomb is the answer
#6
I mean, you could get a USA Custom Shop Duo Jet but it's going to be between 5 and 10K depending on the options.
Quote by jetwash69
Do $5,000+ MIJ ESP guitars give you heartburn, too? Don't think they have any MIAs at all...

It's a Japanese company. Why would they spend so much money to open up a shop in the US when they can make perfectly good guitars in Japan?

This insistence that only American guitars can be worth a certain dollar amount is baffling. Either a guitar is good enough to be worth $2500, or $5000, or it's not. If it has to be from one specific country for you to decide if it's worth that much, then clearly you're just paying for some sort of quasi-xenophobic brand name bragging rights and not actually the quality of the instrument.
#7
Think about Framus too. German made guitars better than a lot of american.

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#8
Quote by Roc8995
I mean, you could get a USA Custom Shop Duo Jet but it's going to be between 5 and 10K depending on the options.

It's a Japanese company. Why would they spend so much money to open up a shop in the US when they can make perfectly good guitars in Japan?

This insistence that only American guitars can be worth a certain dollar amount is baffling. Either a guitar is good enough to be worth $2500, or $5000, or it's not. If it has to be from one specific country for you to decide if it's worth that much, then clearly you're just paying for some sort of quasi-xenophobic brand name bragging rights and not actually the quality of the instrument.


Think we're talking past each other here Roc...

My point was there are plenty of other MIJ guitars that cost more than $2,500.

While I'm a supporter of buying American products when possible, I only have 1 MIA guitar and its a Standard Strat. It's my most expensive guitar even though I have others with nicer woods, more frets, neck-throughs, floyd roses, humbuckers, and even a retrofitted Deluxe parts like an S-1 switching system and locking tuners. 2 of my guitars are MIJ (an Ibanez Prestige, and a Fender '65 Mustang re-issue).

So none of my guitars are even worth $1,200, let alone $2,500. 2 are MIJ and 2 are MIK. Sure, it would be nice to have a top shelf Hammet signature guitar, but I wouldn't spend the $10k for it even if I had it to spend, no matter where it was made. Hell, I wouldn't even pay over $100 to see Metallica live and it costs a lot more than that.

So I was just asking TS if he was offended by the high ESP prices, not saying that I didn't think ESP guitars are as good as MIA guitars.

I'd probably get an ESP before I'd get a top shelf Jackson, or even a GJ2--if I had the money.
#9
I figured we were on the same page there. It's just hard to tell inflection/intent over the internet.
#10
Quote by Roc8995
Why would they spend so much money to open up a shop in the US when they can make perfectly good guitars in Japan?

I would say to get way from the well earned stigma of yet one more MIJ cheep knockoff, of an American made guitar...

The open market also reflects the value of American made guitars -vs- most other guitars too. I think there is a reason.

Hot Rod Tele... Made in America...

Baja Tele... Made in Mexico...

What one do you want?

Gibson Les Paul... or Epiphone...

What one do you want?

I went for the American made Hot Rod Tele, and the Gibson Les Paul...

and have American pride...
Last edited by BurstBucker Pro at Mar 18, 2012,
#11
well i would much rather support the troubled american economy than the japanese economy. i like having american pride not japanese
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#12
All those examples are of outsourcing to cut costs. Outsourcing to raise costs to appease idiots might not be a great business decision. All the cheaper options are that way because the original happened to be started in America. That doesn't mean that someone else can't make a guitar that's just as good. How would they ever get away from that stigma if they didn't start making great products? Italy used to be known for making cheap knockoffs. Then it was Japan, now it's China. Why you think that an entire country can only manage to produce one uniform level of quality is puzzling.

To give an example of an actual level playing field: given the choice between an old USA Gretsch and a new Japan one, I chose Japan. Between a USA strat and a MIJ Edwards, I took the Edwards. Price didn't factor into either decision.

And that's not American pride. It's arrogance.
#13
Wow... Very passionate!
Am I sensing a shade a shade of disdain toward America?
Were you born here?

I never said I think that an entire country can only manage to produce one uniform level of quality.

I do stand firm though that the open market does reflects the value of American made guitars.
In most cases the do hold more value than the off-shore produced item.

And also, it may be fair to say that extra value is mostly held by Americans.
Having a little National Pride is not a bad thing.
Last edited by BurstBucker Pro at Mar 18, 2012,
#18
Gretsch/Fender will make their own business decisions, including how to run their supply chain. Especially now that Fender will be publicly owned, it has to be all about profit. If they get it wrong long enough, then the board will shake things up and the new decision makers will make some changes. And the cycle will continue as long as they stay in business.

BTW, we support the American economy more by buying a product with an American brand, from an American store even if the item was made overseas, than we would buying a foreign brand made in America. It's all about where the profits go. America's core competency has not been manufacturing for a long time, and no country can get ahead without capitalizing on their core competencies. In many industrial sectors the competetion comes down to who is willing to work for the lowest wages; I don't think Americans want to win that competition.

So, you'd be doing more for America by buying an MIM Ford than if you bought an MIA Hyundai. If you really want what's best for the country, then support politicians who favor free trade; protectionist policies just lower a country's incentives to compete, therefore lowering the quality and raising the prices of the domestic products, while the foreign producers get more incentive to make a better product since it's going to cost more anyway.
Last edited by jetwash69 at Mar 18, 2012,
#19
Quote by Roc8995
All those examples are of outsourcing to cut costs. Outsourcing to raise costs to appease idiots might not be a great business decision. All the cheaper options are that way because the original happened to be started in America. That doesn't mean that someone else can't make a guitar that's just as good. How would they ever get away from that stigma if they didn't start making great products? Italy used to be known for making cheap knockoffs. Then it was Japan, now it's China. Why you think that an entire country can only manage to produce one uniform level of quality is puzzling.

To give an example of an actual level playing field: given the choice between an old USA Gretsch and a new Japan one, I chose Japan. Between a USA strat and a MIJ Edwards, I took the Edwards. Price didn't factor into either decision.

And that's not American pride. It's arrogance.


+1

I'm not american (obviously), but buying something solely because it's american is a bad idea (and you're asking to get ripped off, as some companies play fast and loose with the "made in" rules).

that's not to say there might not be genuine reasons why you want to buy american- for example, as colin says, often stuff is outsourced to save money which translates to cost cutting elsewhere, which results in objectively worse instruments. that's fair enough. most of my guitars are made in europe, japan or the us for that reason. also, if you live in the us, the homegrown stuff might be cheaper.

also, only some us-made guitars are "best of the best". something like tyler, say. but plenty of places make " best of the best" stuff. i mean i'd rather have a high end japanese tokai than a low end gibson.

Quote by BurstBucker Pro
Wow... Very passionate!
(a) Am I sensing a shade a shade of disdain toward America?
Were you born here?


(b) I do stand firm though that the open market does reflects the value of American made guitars.
In most cases the do hold more value than the off-shore produced item.

(c) And also, it may be fair to say that extra value is mostly held by Americans.
Having a little National Pride is not a bad thing.


(a) wow.

(b) true, but that's something of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Don't get me wrong, it does exist, but maybe not for the right reasons.

(c) not just america. US instruments are dearer here in europe, too. it's because of the history, unfortunately.
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

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Et tu, br00tz?
#20
Quote by BurstBucker Pro
I would say to get way from the well earned stigma of yet one more MIJ cheep knockoff, of an American made guitar...

The open market also reflects the value of American made guitars -vs- most other guitars too. I think there is a reason.

Hot Rod Tele... Made in America...

Baja Tele... Made in Mexico...

What one do you want?

Gibson Les Paul... or Epiphone...

What one do you want?

I went for the American made Hot Rod Tele, and the Gibson Les Paul...

and have American pride...

how about some more fair examples

American Standard Strat or MIJ ST58?
I'd take the ST58

1978 Gibson Les Paul or Ibanez Les Paul?
I'd take the Ibanez.
#21
agreed

i'd take a USA fender over a baja in a second

ditto a (good) gibson over an epi

but that's not really a fair argument

as you say, Fender USA RI versus Fender Japan (or better yet, MIJ tokai and just cut out the middle man)? Well, the USA RI is possibly marginally better (especially if you "need" nitro), but when the MIJ one is a quarter of the price, I'mma take the MIJ one. Especially when a strat isn't really aimed at the music i mostly play.
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#22
Quote by CJ Noble
...American Standard Strat or MIJ ST58?
I'd take the ST58...


Why? Not me. Those Kluson style tuners are a PITA. Got those on my MIJ Mustang and I much prefer the standard MIA Strat tuners, although the Deluxe (Fender/Schaller lockers) are even better. Also not a fan of the 6 point (screw) trem; much prefer the 2 point trem on my MIA Standard Strat. Plus, I really don't get why anyone would choose a 21 fret neck over a 22.

My only 21 fret guitar is a Squier, and now that I've modded it heavily, the lack of the 22nd fret is the only thing I wish were different about it.

My MIA Standard Strat is a 2006. And the only significant difference I've seen in the MIAs since then is they have glossier necks now, and those can get a little sticky. I've handled lots of them in stores, and never found a flaw on any of them. Just can't understand why anyone would want to go backwards on this.

I wouldn't want one of the Fender Custom Shop retro-style Strats either. If someone gave me one free, I'd probably sell it and buy an MIA Deluxe or 2.

But to each their own, I guess.
#23
Quote by BurstBucker Pro
Wow... Very passionate!
Am I sensing a shade a shade of disdain toward America?
Were you born here?

I never said I think that an entire country can only manage to produce one uniform level of quality.

I do stand firm though that the open market does reflects the value of American made guitars.
In most cases the do hold more value than the off-shore produced item.

And also, it may be fair to say that extra value is mostly held by Americans.
Having a little National Pride is not a bad thing.

No disdain for America. The disdain is for your views, spefically. America is far too diverse a group for me to have strong feelings about. What difference would it make, exactly, if I were born here or not? I mean, besides that you would feel like your opinion matters more if I wasn't. I'm not really interested in listing my citizenship qualifications for you.

Having a little national pride isn't a bad thing, but discriminating against other nations because of it, and suggesting that I dislike a country and perhaps wasn't born here (don't belong here?) because I don't blindly prefer its products over others of similar quality? That is a bad thing. Smacks more than a little bit of good old fashioned American xenophobia.

We are talking about the quality of guitars, here. This is something rather objective, so the country of origin should not factor. Whether you think your country is better than another should not matter. Whether or not my family came here in 1860 or I just passed my citizenship test last month sure as hell doesn't matter. My opinion is just as valid as yours, but since yours is based on not liking other countries, and mine is based on the actual factors contributing to a quality instrument, I am dismissing yours.

Quote by BurstBucker Pro
I assure you it makes sense over here...

It makes sense to you, because you have decided that it makes sense to you. That doesn't mean he's wrong in being puzzled by your attitude or mindset. I live "over here", and it doesn't make sense to me. I mean, I understand it, but I don't agree with it.
#24
The main point is, unless you go custom shop THERE IS NO MIA Gretsch. so it doesnt matter what you feel about the countries or whatever.

And without a doubt the MIJ's are the finest guitars you can buy in my opinion
#25
Quote by jetwash69
Why? Not me. Those Kluson style tuners are a PITA. Got those on my MIJ Mustang and I much prefer the standard MIA Strat tuners, although the Deluxe (Fender/Schaller lockers) are even better. Also not a fan of the 6 point (screw) trem; much prefer the 2 point trem on my MIA Standard Strat. Plus, I really don't get why anyone would choose a 21 fret neck over a 22.

My only 21 fret guitar is a Squier, and now that I've modded it heavily, the lack of the 22nd fret is the only thing I wish were different about it.

My MIA Standard Strat is a 2006. And the only significant difference I've seen in the MIAs since then is they have glossier necks now, and those can get a little sticky. I've handled lots of them in stores, and never found a flaw on any of them. Just can't understand why anyone would want to go backwards on this.

I wouldn't want one of the Fender Custom Shop retro-style Strats either. If someone gave me one free, I'd probably sell it and buy an MIA Deluxe or 2.

But to each their own, I guess.

klusons are great and 21 > 22 because of the body end truss rod adjustment
#26
Quote by CJ Noble
klusons are great and 21 > 22 because of the body end truss rod adjustment

Maybe the Klusons Fender uses on MIJ Strats are better than the ones they use on MIJ Mustangs, but as a current owner of Fender/Schaller Lockers, Gotohs, Fender Standard, Grovers, [broken] Squiers, and Klusons on a Mustang, I gotta say the Klusons are the biggest PITA, both from the slot design and due to their inconsistency/erratic function.

I listed them in order of preference above. The Klusons already proved more durable than the Squiers, but the Squiers worked better before they broke. I'll give you this--the Klusons do look kinda cool if you're into that Vintage thing. Thing is, the "good old days" weren't always better than today.

Not sure why anyone would consider a body end truss rod an advantage. Why would you want to have to remove the pick guard to adjust the truss rod (or pay someone more to do it for you?). And even if it is an advantage, you could get that with a MIM Road Worn Strat. My Mustang has the body-end truss adjustment even though it has 22 frets. But I consider that a downside of the guitar, much like its Klusons and its horrible trem.

Incidentally, most currently available 21 fret necks have the headstock-end truss adjustment (all the standard & deluxe MIMs and most, if not all 21-fret Squiers), so foregoing that 22nd fret doesn't necessarily give you the body-end truss rod adjustment. And the Mustang proves the reverse isn't true, either.

If you're going to have to have a body-end truss adjustment, then it seems better to me to have it like the Peaveys, Hamers, and many others where you can access the adjuster with a pin so you don't have to remove the pick guard.

Still scratching my head over the whole MIJ ST58 > MIA Standard preference, but like I said before...to each his own and you, Sir, certainly have the right to your opinion regardless of what you base it on. I'm just trying to keep an open mind here and hopefully learn a thing or two.
#27
Quote by jetwash69
Not sure why anyone would consider a body end truss rod an advantage.

I think he means aesthetically? Even then, I can't agree. I've got two guitars with the adjustment at the body side and it is a completely awful design. I don't think the headstock adjust looks bad, either.
#28
Quote by BurstBucker Pro
I assure you it makes sense over here...


ya but they aren't very good decisions still.

I'd take a good japanese guitar over any of the stuff you listed.

As for made in america...

giving your dollars to a small american shop is much better then giving it to a giant corporation that owns factories all over the world.

I'd rather have an anderson, suhr, or grosh over a fender any day.
Prs se Holcomb is the answer
#29
Quote by Roc8995
No disdain for America. The disdain is for your views, spefically. America is far too diverse a group for me to have strong feelings about. What difference would it make, exactly, if I were born here or not? I mean, besides that you would feel like your opinion matters more if I wasn't. I'm not really interested in listing my citizenship qualifications for you.


No need to list anything, it was a simple yes or no question. I was born in America and have no issues posting that....
Lets face it, most dudes born in Wisconsin don't have your concerns!

"The disdain is for your views, spefically". That American guitars hold more value on the open market? That is the only view I expressed.

Quote by Roc8995
Having a little national pride isn't a bad thing, but discriminating against other nations because of it, and suggesting that I dislike a country and perhaps wasn't born here (don't belong here?) because I don't blindly prefer its products over others of similar quality? That is a bad thing. Smacks more than a little bit of good old fashioned American xenophobia.


Wow... I agree. We shouldn't discriminate against anybody, especially against the Nation that has provided such opportunities to numerous people of all nationalities.

Quote by Roc8995
We are talking about the quality of guitars, here. This is something rather objective, so the country of origin should not factor. Whether you think your country is better than another should not matter. Whether or not my family came here in 1860 or I just passed my citizenship test last month sure as hell doesn't matter. My opinion is just as valid as yours, but since yours is based on not liking other countries, and mine is based on the actual factors contributing to a quality instrument, I am dismissing yours.


Now I don't like other countries because I listed a Mexican made Epiphone, and a Baja tele??
I thought we were just speaking guitar value on the open market.
My bad I guess??

Quote by Roc8995
It makes sense to you, because you have decided that it makes sense to you. That doesn't mean he's wrong in being puzzled by your attitude or mindset. I live "over here", and it doesn't make sense to me. I mean, I understand it, but I don't agree with it.


I didn't mean to convey that anybody is wrong, nor was I aware anybody was puzzled by my attitude or mindset.

He can buy from whatever country he likes.
#30
My problem with your statements was that they seemed to equate "American pride" with really poorly informed and blind preference for products from the US. Your list of products was misleadingly one-sided, which made me think you were talking quality instead of market value.

Not sure what "most dudes born in Wisconsin don't have your concerns" means, exactly, but I have those concerns all the same. If it really matters to you anthropologically, I was born in Milwaukee.
#31
Quote by Roc8995
My problem with your statements was that they seemed to equate "American pride" with really poorly informed and blind preference for products from the US. Your list of products was misleadingly one-sided, which made me think you were talking quality instead of market value.

Not sure what "most dudes born in Wisconsin don't have your concerns" means, exactly, but I have those concerns all the same. If it really matters to you anthropologically, I was born in Milwaukee.


+1

An informed customer would pick the best examples of items made in a country to purchase.

not just buying whatever pops out of the factory.
Prs se Holcomb is the answer
#32
Well then I surrender!!

And in my defense I own a Takamine F350M, and think is is an outstanding guitar and value, along with being well very made.

I also just bought a $350.00 dollar pedal from Canada. I also support the international community!
Last edited by BurstBucker Pro at Mar 18, 2012,
#33
fascinating discussion.

i totally agree that there is no real reason based in fact that says that America makes the best guitars. asians have been making musical instruments for far longer than there has been an America. here in the USA costs are inflated and the notion that all our guitars are built by these magic guys with care and experience is nonsense (this is aimed at production guitars and not individual lutheirs). having spent over 30 years in American manufacturing i can tell you that often the people making anything are just some schmoe of the street who is often more intererested talking about last nights big game than insuring that what he is doing is always correct. ever work in a place that uses a lot of temp help? like most of them even care at all past a paycheck. if the place has a union well that is even worse. best guy for the job, nope, the people with seniority get the cushy jobs even if they suck at it. this all adds to the cost but not the quality.

i have to disagree about the where the profits go makes the difference though. regular people spending money they make from their jobs accounts for more of the economic growth than corporate profits. if everything is made overseas then thier economies benifit from al the money that is sent there to pay for said products. there is no guarentee that the profits from any company are pumped back in the local economy.
#34
This whole discussion is beyond stupid. As Colin already said, many great guitars were made in the USA in the past. Many still are. Today there is a need for a 'mid-range' of guitars to fill that price point so companies have moved production overseas for some models to reduce costs, while continuing to make the 'originals' in the USA, to avoid hurting their 'image.'

The byproduct of this situation is the false assumption that all American guitars are the top quality while imports are lower quality. That is only true when discussing companies using the model described above.
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#35
^ +1

Quote by Roc8995
I think he means aesthetically? Even then, I can't agree. I've got two guitars with the adjustment at the body side and it is a completely awful design. I don't think the headstock adjust looks bad, either.


+1

unless you desperately have to have it as authentic as possible, there's no real advantage to adjusting the truss rod at the body end. it's just more work.
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
Last edited by Dave_Mc at Mar 19, 2012,
#36
Quote by Dave_Mc
...unless you desperately have to have it as authentic as possible, there's no real advantage to adjusting the truss rod at the body end. it's just more work.

And more wear and tear on the guitar.

Quote by monwobobbo

i have to disagree about the where the profits go makes the difference though. regular people spending money they make from their jobs accounts for more of the economic growth than corporate profits. if everything is made overseas then thier economies benifit from al the money that is sent there to pay for said products. there is no guarentee that the profits from any company are pumped back in the local economy.

I was overgeneralizing to an extent, and you may find some exceptions. I was focusing more on the national perspective than the local and coming from a macro perspective, with some micro concepts included too.

Consumers have more buying power when the products they buy are available for the lower costs. If a nation's standard of living is so high that industrial workers command so high a wage that their products can't compete without protectionist policies, then something has to give. Best to train for other type of work where the competetion can't undercut you than to artificially raise prices so your own country has no choice but to pay more than the products are worth. Trade sanctions beget more trade sanctions, plus it will make your products less competetive internationally, too. That really isn't going to help turn around a trade deficit, is it?
Last edited by jetwash69 at Mar 19, 2012,
#38
Goddamn, stop necrobumping. No on has posted there in a year or so.

If you want to talk about it start your own thread.
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#39
Quote by thetonixs
wall of text


use some paragraphs, don't necro bump, and make pertinent points. that post wasn't worth the unreadable rant you posted in response.

btw, i wouldn't recommend being such a dick to the mods.

and i think some of the cheapest electromatics i have played are still quite nice.
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Last edited by gumbilicious at Sep 27, 2013,