#1
More just about the naming of scales.

I've been playing a Natural Minor scale with a flat 5. Is it still just a natural minor scale or is it another scale? I don't even,
#2
Quote by BoringUsername
More just about the naming of scales.

I've been playing a Natural Minor scale with a flat 5. Is it still just a natural minor scale or is it another scale? I don't even,


The blues scale often flattens the 5th as this gives a lot of tension (3rd and 7th often can be flatened as well)...but as you know hopefully, this note is often used as a passing note over a progression.
#3
it then becomes called a flat fifth scale. pretty simple actually. I always wondered why guitar players don't learn theory, it's easy. I also wonder why people play bass at all. They know they aren't really in the band right? Flat Fifth Scale.
#4
Quote by dvm25
The blues scale often flattens the 5th as this gives a lot of tension (3rd and 7th often can be flatened as well)...but as you know hopefully, this note is often used as a passing note over a progression.


I've mainly just used it to mess around between the flat and natural. Or sometimes use it with in a minor third.
#5
Quote by JD Close
it then becomes called a flat fifth scale. pretty simple actually. I always wondered why guitar players don't learn theory, it's easy. I also wonder why people play bass at all. They know they aren't really in the band right? Flat Fifth Scale.


Well, I'm learning. I usually just don't know the technical terms for much of this stuff.
#6
Quote by BoringUsername
I've mainly just used it to mess around between the flat and natural. Or sometimes use it with in a minor third.


Yep, sounds like blues staple stuff there. The minor 3rd and flat 5th give a piece
that tension that is so characteristic of blues.
#7
Quote by dvm25
Yep, sounds like blues staple stuff there. The minor 3rd and flat 5th give a piece
that tension that is so characteristic of blues.


Eh well i'm using it more for metal stuff.
#8
Quote by BoringUsername
Eh well i'm using it more for metal stuff.


Yes it can certainly be used in that context as well as metal uses a lot of dissonance as well...it all depends on how to use it...but I am just saying if you wanted to learn more about what youre doing...looking up the blues scale may help.
#9
Quote by BoringUsername
More just about the naming of scales.

I've been playing a Natural Minor scale with a flat 5. Is it still just a natural minor scale or is it another scale? I don't even,


It's actually called a Locrian with a natural second. It's the 6th mode of the Melodic Minor scale. It's definitely not called a flattened fifth scale. I hope that helps.
#10
Quote by Brettls
It's actually called a Locrian with a natural second. It's the 6th mode of the Melodic Minor scale. It's definitely not called a flattened fifth scale. I hope that helps.


You're bringing in modes, badly, so not really.

What's the obsession with the 'correct' name of things? It won't change the sound of the music. A name is just something that somebody made up sometime. Our objective in naming things should be clarity and simplicity, not clever-sounding jargon.

TS, do you play the flat 5th as well as, or instead of, the perfect 5th? In the harmony or just the solo?
#11
The use of the augmented 4th/diminished 5th will just be using a chromatic passing note/auxiliary note/appoggiatura. Not some scale with a fancy name.
#12
don't listen to either jd close or brettls. those guitar players should definitely learn some theory. it's easy, i don't know why they don't do it.

i don't quite agree with dvm's suggestion that it's characteristic of blues in the manner that you're using it, but he's right, it IS characteristic of blues. i just don't think it applies here.

you're in a minor key, and you're using an accidental. period.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#13
Quote by AeolianWolf

you're in a minor key, and you're using an accidental. period.


It's really so simple I wonder why musicians try to complicate things.
#14
Quote by AeolianWolf
don't listen to either jd close or brettls. those guitar players should definitely learn some theory. it's easy, i don't know why they don't do it.

i don't quite agree with dvm's suggestion that it's characteristic of blues in the manner that you're using it, but he's right, it IS characteristic of blues. i just don't think it applies here.

you're in a minor key, and you're using an accidental. period.


I don't understand the difficulty; You either take a natural minor and flatten its fifth or take the locrian and makes its second natural. he wanted to know the scale name, so I gave him one.
#15
Quote by Brettls
I don't understand the difficulty


not surprising, considering you're perpetuating it.

Quote by Brettls
You either take a natural minor and flatten its fifth or take the locrian and makes its second natural. he wanted to know the scale name, so I gave him one.


well, fantastic. just the fact that you're even bringing the word "locrian" into this signifies to me that you have very little real idea what you're talking about, outside of fancy scale names.

see, if the lot of guitarists out there would learn about keys rather than scales, guitarists wouldn't get so much shit. but that's neither here nor there. every time someone says "i have to play [song], what scale is it in?", a dolphin is lit on fire.

keys are superior to "scale names", in every way, shape, and form. i don't have the time to educate you myself -- hopefully somebody will come in and elaborate. i've only given a very bare bones response.

and if nobody does, just go to pretty much any thread that's ever been made here, where some knowledgeable regular has explained the same exact thing 38,764 times over.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#16
Quote by AeolianWolf
not surprising, considering you're perpetuating it.


well, fantastic. just the fact that you're even bringing the word "locrian" into this signifies to me that you have very little real idea what you're talking about, outside of fancy scale names.

see, if the lot of guitarists out there would learn about keys rather than scales, guitarists wouldn't get so much shit. but that's neither here nor there. every time someone says "i have to play [song], what scale is it in?", a dolphin is lit on fire.

keys are superior to "scale names", in every way, shape, and form. i don't have the time to educate you myself -- hopefully somebody will come in and elaborate. i've only given a very bare bones response.

and if nobody does, just go to pretty much any thread that's ever been made here, where some knowledgeable regular has explained the same exact thing 38,764 times over.


I don't understand your personal attacks. For a start, the key Locrian nat. 2 gives rise to 2 dominant sevenths and 2 m7flat5 chords, whereas the natural minor key has only one of each. The consequences of changing a single note in a key can be quite far-reaching and completely change not only the melodic possibilities, but also the harmonic ones.

If one is to solo over a chord progression in a natural minor key and decide to add a flatten fifth, but as a key in its own right, there are huge differences.
#17
Quote by Brettls
I don't understand your personal attacks. For a start, the key Locrian nat. 2 gives rise to 2 dominant sevenths and 2 m7flat5 chords, whereas the natural minor key has only one of each. The consequences of changing a single note in a key can be quite far-reaching and completely change not only the melodic possibilities, but also the harmonic ones.

If one is to solo over a chord progression in a natural minor key and decide to add a flatten fifth, but as a key in its own right, there are huge differences.


2 dominant 7ths?

Want to know what allows the use of 12 dominant 7ths? - Tonal harmony
#18
Quote by griffRG7321
2 dominant 7ths?

Want to know what allows the use of 12 dominant 7ths? - Tonal harmony


This is getting way from the original point which, I read to be, what have I got if I flatten the fifth of a natural minor scale. I have attempted to answer this question.
#19
Quote by Brettls
I don't understand your personal attacks. For a start, the key Locrian nat. 2 gives rise to 2 dominant sevenths and 2 m7flat5 chords, whereas the natural minor key has only one of each. The consequences of changing a single note in a key can be quite far-reaching and completely change not only the melodic possibilities, but also the harmonic ones.

If one is to solo over a chord progression in a natural minor key and decide to add a flatten fifth, but as a key in its own right, there are huge differences.


...you think that "locrian nat. 2" is a key. that's all i need to see to know that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

you can choose to take that as an attack, or you can actually take it to heart and realize that maybe you should start studying more, because your foundations are terrible. i'm not even going to sugar-coat it.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#20
Quote by Brettls
I don't understand your personal attacks. For a start, the key Locrian nat. 2 gives rise to 2 dominant sevenths and 2 m7flat5 chords, whereas the natural minor key has only one of each. The consequences of changing a single note in a key can be quite far-reaching and completely change not only the melodic possibilities, but also the harmonic ones.

If one is to solo over a chord progression in a natural minor key and decide to add a flatten fifth, but as a key in its own right, there are huge differences.

Problem 1: There are only two keys: major/minor.
Problem 2: Sparingly using a b5 in a minor scale does not influence or change the fact that he's using a blues based melodic device, and therefore it's absolutely pointless to distinguish it as something other than what it is; a blues articulation. You might be able to make a case if he was never playing a natural 5th, and his tonic chord was diminished - oh but the irony of a diminished tonic chord.
Last edited by chronowarp at Mar 21, 2012,