#1
Sorry for the long post but there's a bit of a back story to this problem (I play bass guitar BTW)...

Back in '08 I was watching a Metallica DVD (Live Sh*t: Binge & Purge) with a friend of mine (I'd say my best friend) who played some guitar (he'd been playing for 3 months). That one show started with a 20 minute documentary of what Metallica had done up until that point in their careers and dedicated an important part to Cliff Burton and what he brought to the band. Up until then I hadn't taken music seriously, I just enjoyed it, but when I saw Cliff playing, and I heard how much he'd made an impact on this music I loved, I decided I wanted to play bass, and THAT moment my friend and I made a promise to get better on our instruments and be on a band that made a difference (we live in Peru so that IS kind of ambitious). An uncle of mine played drums and owned a cheap Yamaha bass and amp setup, which he let me borrow so I could learn to play my instrument. Years passed and my friend and I got better and better and kept jamming together and discovering new music together (we went from thrash to indie to blues and finally we've found ourselves appreciating a whole lot of rock music but with a special inclination to 90s grunge and hard rock).

Thing is, last year my mom told me that this dude who'd been a friend of mine up until we were like 8 (and had moved to the US) had come back and that his mom told her "he played guitar and sang". In Peru if we're lacking anything it's good vocalists, even more so, fluent in english. I went to meet him and we loved the same bands, from Megadeth to Hendrix to Sabbath to Soundgarden, it was f*cking awesome. And his voice, though untrained, reminds me of a mixture between Layne Staley and Kurt Cobain. We jammed a couple of times and I thought: "This is guy is just what we were looking for! He likes the same music we do and his voice suits what we wanna play perfectly!" We jammed with my guitarist friend a couple of times and it was great.

Anyways some time passed and because of college I was very busy and couldn't play much, I had another band with some friends (which I recently quit) and the opportunity just didn't come. Until it did, and I went to jam with my vocalist friend. He had brought a guitarist friend who was also an awesome player, while my best friend is more inclined to writing heavy riffing stuff, this dude was more into creating clean guitar/arpeggiated music, the whole mixture of styles reminded me a lot of the feeling from the Alice in Chains album Dirt (with styles reminiscent of songs like The Rooster and Damn That River) with a little bit of Pearl Jam and Mother Love Bone thrown in. I thought it was amazing because that was just what we were missing.

Anyways, we jammed one more time and then I brought my guitarist friend over, to have "the full line-up" jamming. My vocalist friend ignored his ideas and just seemed to be uncomfortable with him being there. When he left we talked and he said "he was playing stuff that was too heavy". This is coming from a guy with whom I've discussed Megadeth, Black Sabbath and Soundgarden and even covered some of their songs. Now my friend wasn't playing any death or speed metal but some thrash influence was present (though I've heard him play heavy stuff that doesn't sound thrashy at all so I don't see how it would be a problem).

Later on my vocalist friend told me that the deal was that "he wanted to play guitar" I told him he could, he could still contribute with ideas and even better so, he would be free to interact more with the audience on live shows and he said that no, he wanted to play guitar ON STAGE. Cause it was fun. So he was basically asking me to kick out my best friend cause he wants to have MORE fun (he doesn't think it's kicking him out BTW, he never considered him to be in the band). And he's also asked me if I think his guitar playing sucks. And now whenever I bring up the subject of a metal band he acts weird and says stuff like "Yeah but we can be heavy without distortion or metal!" or "I've lost my metal..." whatever that means. Now I don't wanna play straight-on heavy metal, but being that I started off listening to thrash and am currently influenced by bands like Alice in Chains and Soundgarden of-f*cking-course I want to have some metal influence and heavy distorted riffs in my band. And also he keeps saying our music is currently "boring and missing edge, energy and aggresion" well, no sh*t.

Also he's asked me to ask the drummer from my ex-band over, and I wanna do it, but not without my best friend (whom he's played with and is friends with also) playing too.

What should I do? I don't wanna lose him as a vocalist or a friend AND I refuse to kick out my best friend just so he can play guitar onstage. I'm kinda stuck here.
Current Gear:
Peavey Zodiac DE Scorpio (Bass)
Yamaha RBX-170 (Bass)
Boss ODB-3 (Overdrive Pedal)
Line 6 LowDown 150 (Amp)
Last edited by Silveroon009 at Mar 20, 2012,
#2
Just to make sure I understand...
There are 3 guitarists in the scenario
One is your best friend, plays heavy stuffs
One is your vocalist friend, wants to play and sing
One in vocalist's friend, plays clean stuffs
Have them all play?
#3
Quite a predicament.
Sounds like the singer/guitarist is being a little bit of a selfish douche. If he's having a problem with how "heavy" the other guitarist is playing, why not ask him to take it down a notch?
And if he's just flat out ignoring other's ideas, is he really the person you wanna be in a band with?
You really need to talk to them both and work out some compromises.
"For me it's important to be in balance. To not let fear get in the way of things, to not worry so much about protecting yourself all the time."

"Muskrats live in my wah wah pedal."

-John Frusciante-
#4
Quote by Darkness in Zero
Just to make sure I understand...
There are 3 guitarists in the scenario
One is your best friend, plays heavy stuffs
One is your vocalist friend, wants to play and sing
One in vocalist's friend, plays clean stuffs
Have them all play?

Yup and no can do, both my vocalist friend and hiss clean-stuff-playing friend think "3 guitars is too much".

Quote by JFisJC
Quite a predicament.
Sounds like the singer/guitarist is being a little bit of a selfish douche. If he's having a problem with how "heavy" the other guitarist is playing, why not ask him to take it down a notch?
And if he's just flat out ignoring other's ideas, is he really the person you wanna be in a band with?
You really need to talk to them both and work out some compromises.

I know, I HAVE talked to my friend to play slightly less thrashy stuff, and he has, and he's showed me great ideas. But my vocalist friend is now defensive and kind of paranoid about the topic of playing with him. He's also my friend, but I don't think he's being open enough. I don't know how to approach the subject and make him open his mind just a bit, I mean my guitarist friend IS what we're looking for (writing energetic heavy riffs) but my vocalist friend I believe thinks that I just want him in the band 'cause he's my friend. And believe me, I have more guitarist friends whom I've never actually thought of bringing into the band because I know our styles wouldn't match, but this is not the case, in fact it's the exact opposite, I talk about the same goals, sound that we're trying to achieve and bands with BOTH of them, my guitarist and vocalist friend, it's just that I do it separately.
Current Gear:
Peavey Zodiac DE Scorpio (Bass)
Yamaha RBX-170 (Bass)
Boss ODB-3 (Overdrive Pedal)
Line 6 LowDown 150 (Amp)
Last edited by Silveroon009 at Mar 20, 2012,
#5
Quote by Silveroon009
I know, I HAVE talked to my friend to play slightly less thrashy stuff, and he has, and he's showed me great ideas. But my vocalist friend is now defensive and kind of paranoid about the topic of playing with him. He's also my friend, but I don't think he's being open enough. I don't know how to approach the subject and make him open his mind just a bit, I mean my guitarist friend IS what we're looking (writing energetic heavy riffs) for but my vocalist friend I believe thinks that I just want him in the band 'cause he's my friend. And believe me, I have more guitarist friends whom I've never actually thought of bringing into the band because I know the styles wouldn't match, but this is not the case, in fact it's the exact opposite, I talk about the same goals, sound that we're trying to achieve and bands with BOTH of them, my guitarist and vocalist friend, it's just that I do it separately.

Well it seems like you singer friend is hindering your progress as a band and the other guitarist seems like he'll help the band move in the right direction.
So this is what you do. Go to him, say "Bro, chill the **** out" If he refuses to chill, boot him. If he's a true friend he'll understand. Now you will go on to dominate the world with your rock.
"For me it's important to be in balance. To not let fear get in the way of things, to not worry so much about protecting yourself all the time."

"Muskrats live in my wah wah pedal."

-John Frusciante-
#7
Iron Maiden have 3 guitarists.
Gear:

Gibson 2005 Les Paul Standard
Fender Road Worn Strat w/ Noiseless pickups
Marshall JCM 2000 401C
Marshall Vintage Modern 2266
Marshall 1960A cab (Dave Hill from Slade's old cab)
Ibanez TS9DX
EHX Little Big Muff
Freshman Acoustic
#8
So do Foo Fighters. I'm thinking of going straight to the point and telling my vocalist friend that if my guitarist friend can't be in the band neither can I in hopes that it might make him reconsider his position... But I'm afraid it might actually get me kicked out of the band if I'm not careful with my delivery.
Current Gear:
Peavey Zodiac DE Scorpio (Bass)
Yamaha RBX-170 (Bass)
Boss ODB-3 (Overdrive Pedal)
Line 6 LowDown 150 (Amp)
#9
Quote by Silveroon009
So do Foo Fighters. I'm thinking of going straight to the point and telling my vocalist friend that if my guitarist friend can't be in the band neither can I in hopes that it might make him reconsider his position... But I'm afraid it might actually get me kicked out of the band if I'm not careful with my delivery.

Then carefully plan out what you are saying before hand.

And if he kicks you out of the band you started over this, then clearly he isn't the person you want to have a working relationship with, in which case you find a different vocalist and start a new band with the guitarist friend you started with in the first place
#10
Well, one question - he asked you if his guitar playing sucked ... did it? Is he a good guitarist? Is he a good enough guitarists to be able to sing the way you want him to sing and to play guitar well enough to contribute to the sound of the band?

I think you can find a way to work with the singer's desire to play guitar on stage - just not on every song. Pearl Jam has done it, since Vedder occasionally plays guitar. The key is to pick spots - have him play on some songs but not on others.

On the other hand, maybe he just wants it to be all about him, in which case you can politely decline to be a part of it.
#11
I don't see how this is a predicament. I'll put your story in the simplest form possible.

1. Years ago you and your mate play together.

2. You guys stop playing for ages.

3. You team up with a new vocalist, and another guitarist, it sounds great.

4. You bring in your old mate to the mix, for no particular reason than he's your friend.

5. The new band isn't comfortable with this.


Isn't it obvious? You didn't have to and shouldn't have brought another guitarist into the mix. That was your doing. Right now you have 3 guitarists, a potential drummer and no bassist. I wouldn't have brought your mate in at all. There was no need to, and it makes things confusing.

The vocalist playing guitar, that's something completely different, there's no need for him to play guitar either. That would be 4 guitarists, including your mate. 3 is too many already.

And 3 guitarists? Yes, scream all you want about Foo Fighters, but they functioned perfectly well for over 10 years with two guitarists. The third is a touring guitarist. Those guys are also pros, and know how to compose parts to complement each other. They're also an exception to the rule, as in the average band 3 guitarists means that two guitarists are playing the same part, making the need for a 3rd guitarist redundant. They'd also put the need for a first bassist over the need for a third guitarist.

Here's what I would do:

1. Kick your mate out, that's what started the issue. If that's too harsh, start a project with just you two and some other guys in addition to your "new" band.

2. Quit and join with your mate.

Notice that both of these options have the whole "your mate isn't part of the band" thing in common.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#12
Quote by AlanHB
I don't see how this is a predicament. I'll put your story in the simplest form possible.

1. Years ago you and your mate play together.

2. You guys stop playing for ages.

3. You team up with a new vocalist, and another guitarist, it sounds great.

4. You bring in your old mate to the mix, for no particular reason than he's your friend.

5. The new band isn't comfortable with this.


Isn't it obvious? You didn't have to and shouldn't have brought another guitarist into the mix. That was your doing. Right now you have 3 guitarists, a potential drummer and no bassist. I wouldn't have brought your mate in at all. There was no need to, and it makes things confusing.

The vocalist playing guitar, that's something completely different, there's no need for him to play guitar either. That would be 4 guitarists, including your mate. 3 is too many already.

And 3 guitarists? Yes, scream all you want about Foo Fighters, but they functioned perfectly well for over 10 years with two guitarists. The third is a touring guitarist. Those guys are also pros, and know how to compose parts to complement each other. They're also an exception to the rule, as in the average band 3 guitarists means that two guitarists are playing the same part, making the need for a 3rd guitarist redundant. They'd also put the need for a first bassist over the need for a third guitarist.

Here's what I would do:

1. Kick your mate out, that's what started the issue. If that's too harsh, start a project with just you two and some other guys in addition to your "new" band.

2. Quit and join with your mate.

Notice that both of these options have the whole "your mate isn't part of the band" thing in common.


Actually... TS is a bassist.
#13
Quote by TheDuckMajor
Actually... TS is a bassist.


Huh, I've missed that point. Regardless, you're still left with 3 guitarists, because (I assume) you never asked the other guys how they feel about bringing in another guitarist.

The story will still play out as:

1. Years ago you and your mate play together.

2. You guys stop playing for ages.

3. You team up with a new vocalist, and another guitarist, it sounds great.

4. You bring in your old mate to the mix, for no particular reason than he's your friend.

5. The new band isn't comfortable with this.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#14
Point Number 2 is absolutely false, since we started learning our instruments and up until I met the vocalist me and my guitar playing friend HAD been playing, heck we even played a couple of times with the vocalist BEFORE he called me to jam and brought his guitar playing friend over. And all is stated in the opening post quite clearly.
Quote by Silveroon009
Sorry for the long post but there's a bit of a back story to this problem (I play bass guitar BTW)...

Back in '08 I was watching a Metallica DVD (Live Sh*t: Binge & Purge) with a friend of mine (I'd say my best friend) who played some guitar (he'd been playing for 3 months). That one show started with a 20 minute documentary of what Metallica had done up until that point in their careers and dedicated an important part to Cliff Burton and what he brought to the band. Up until then I hadn't taken music seriously, I just enjoyed it, but when I saw Cliff playing, and I heard how much he'd made an impact on this music I loved, I decided I wanted to play bass, and THAT moment my friend and I made a promise to get better on our instruments and be on a band that made a difference (we live in Peru so that IS kind of ambitious). An uncle of mine played drums and owned a cheap Yamaha bass and amp setup, which he let me borrow so I could learn to play my instrument. Years passed and my friend and I got better and better and kept jamming together and discovering new music together (we went from thrash to indie to blues and finally we've found ourselves appreciating a whole lot of rock music but with a special inclination to 90s grunge and hard rock).

Thing is, last year my mom told me that this dude who'd been a friend of mine up until we were like 8 (and had moved to the US) had come back and that his mom told her "he played guitar and sang". In Peru if we're lacking anything it's good vocalists, even more so, fluent in english. I went to meet him and we loved the same bands, from Megadeth to Hendrix to Sabbath to Soundgarden, it was f*cking awesome. And his voice, though untrained, reminds me of a mixture between Layne Staley and Kurt Cobain. We jammed a couple of times and I thought: "This is guy is just what we were looking for! He likes the same music we do and his voice suits what we wanna play perfectly!" We jammed with my guitarist friend a couple of times and it was great.

Anyways some time passed and because of college I was very busy and couldn't play much, I had another band with some friends (which I recently quit) and the opportunity just didn't come. Until it did, and I went to jam with my vocalist friend. He had brought a guitarist friend who was also an awesome player, while my best friend is more inclined to writing heavy riffing stuff, this dude was more into creating clean guitar/arpeggiated music, the whole mixture of styles reminded me a lot of the feeling from the Alice in Chains album Dirt (with styles reminiscent of songs like The Rooster and Damn That River) with a little bit of Pearl Jam and Mother Love Bone thrown in. I thought it was amazing because that was just what we were missing.

Anyways, we jammed one more time and then I brought my guitarist friend over, to have "the full line-up" jamming. My vocalist friend ignored his ideas and just seemed to be uncomfortable with him being there. When he left we talked and he said "he was playing stuff that was too heavy". This is coming from a guy with whom I've discussed Megadeth, Black Sabbath and Soundgarden and even covered some of their songs. Now my friend wasn't playing any death or speed metal but some thrash influence was present (though I've heard him play heavy stuff that doesn't sound thrashy at all so I don't see how it would be a problem).

Later on my vocalist friend told me that the deal was that "he wanted to play guitar" I told him he could, he could still contribute with ideas and even better so, he would be free to interact more with the audience on live shows and he said that no, he wanted to play guitar ON STAGE. Cause it was fun. So he was basically asking me to kick out my best friend cause he wants to have MORE fun (he doesn't think it's kicking him out BTW, he never considered him to be in the band). And he's also asked me if I think his guitar playing sucks. And now whenever I bring up the subject of a metal band he acts weird and says stuff like "Yeah but we can be heavy without distortion or metal!" or "I've lost my metal..." whatever that means. Now I don't wanna play straight-on heavy metal, but being that I started off listening to thrash and am currently influenced by bands like Alice in Chains and Soundgarden of-f*cking-course I want to have some metal influence and heavy distorted riffs in my band. And also he keeps saying our music is currently "boring and missing edge, energy and aggresion" well, no sh*t.

Also he's asked me to ask the drummer from my ex-band over, and I wanna do it, but not without my best friend (whom he's played with and is friends with also) playing too.

What should I do? I don't wanna lose him as a vocalist or a friend AND I refuse to kick out my best friend just so he can play guitar onstage. I'm kinda stuck here.
EDIT: And Point Number 4 is false also, I am aware of how subjective it appears but I talk about the exact same sound we're trying to achieve with all of the people involved in the issue and we all love the EXACT same bands. I have guitarist friends who are into post-rock, funk, full on thrash metal, but this is not the case and I've never even considered bringing them in. We're talking about a dude with whom we've played with before but that has been apparently replaced by my vocalist friend's guitarist friend, and even though he may fit, the excuse appears to be that my vocalist "friend" won't give up playing guitar and singing because it is way more fun than "just singing".

So it would sum up more like this:

1. I learned to play and jam with friend #1 (who is a guitarist).

2. I meet friend #2 (who is a vocalist) and notice that he has the same taste in music as friend #1 and I do.

3. Friends #1, #2 and I jam together, it's pretty cool.

4. I keep on playing with friend #1 for a while, in my former band, in that time I couldn't play with friend #2.

5. I ask friend #2 to come over to band practice with my former band (where friend #1, with whom he had played with, played) he comes out saying that the OTHER guitarist didn't fit me and friend #1's style (I agree actually), he says I should meet friend #3 (his guitarist friend).

6. Friend #2 asks me to come over to his house. I get there and friend #3 is there (I didn't know he'd be there), he introduces us to each other and we start jamming, being that as I'd understood "this dude would fit our style more". We jam a couple of times and it goes well.

7. I ask friend #1 to come over to practice. The events mentioned in the OP happen.

8. Friend #2, after telling me he wants to have 2 guitars BUT he wants to do the other guitar while singing, tells me to get my former band's drummer (a band in which friend #1 also played).

I hope you can now see why I'm uncomfortable with the situation. And yes I know that now I've released a couple tidbits of information that I hadn't released before, such as the jam with my former band.
Current Gear:
Peavey Zodiac DE Scorpio (Bass)
Yamaha RBX-170 (Bass)
Boss ODB-3 (Overdrive Pedal)
Line 6 LowDown 150 (Amp)
Last edited by Silveroon009 at Mar 21, 2012,
#15
Nope it's still not clear to me. I think you're making this whole thing more complicated than it needs to be.

In any case, is it something like Friend #2 doesn't want Friend #1 in the band?
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#16
Yes, because he believes that his presence jeopardizes his position as a rhythm guitarist. A job he doesn't do as good as he thinks to be honest, he's constantly falling out of time and his ideas aren't very good to begin with. And I mean his ideas on guitar, his vocals are great, that's exactly why I still want him as a vocalist.

It truly isn't that difficult to understand, everyone else has.
Current Gear:
Peavey Zodiac DE Scorpio (Bass)
Yamaha RBX-170 (Bass)
Boss ODB-3 (Overdrive Pedal)
Line 6 LowDown 150 (Amp)
#17
Quote by Silveroon009
Yes, because he believes that his presence jeopardizes his position as a rhythm guitarist. A job he doesn't do as good as he thinks to be honest, he's constantly falling out of time and his ideas aren't very good to begin with. And I mean his ideas on guitar, his vocals are great, that's exactly why I still want him as a vocalist.

It truly isn't that difficult to understand, everyone else has.


It's difficult for you to understand, otherwise you wouldn't have made a thread here. I'm just trying to identify the actual issues.

If you made a band with Friend #2, and he already knew Friend #1 before Friend #1 joined, when he was saying that Friend #1 wasn't the right fit, he actually meant that he didn't want Friend #1 in the band at all. That's why he invited the other guitarist around. You misunderstood him (understandably) and show up with Friend #1 at practice anyway.

Is this a good start for you?
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#18
Yes. Thank you. I will take that point of view into account when I approach the subject next time.
Current Gear:
Peavey Zodiac DE Scorpio (Bass)
Yamaha RBX-170 (Bass)
Boss ODB-3 (Overdrive Pedal)
Line 6 LowDown 150 (Amp)
#19
Quote by Silveroon009
Yes. Thank you. I will take that point of view into account when I approach the subject next time.


Cool stuff. So whatever happens, Friend #1 can't be in a band with Friend #2 without it all falling apart.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#20
Singers can be definite divas sometimes. Only some singers though, i wouldn't consider myself a Diva ;P but yeah, i'd say first, tell him to sort out his ego.. get over himself and stop trying to control the band, a band is meant to be a cooperative, and everyone should be free to express their own opinions and bring in their own ideas... have them all, get them to agree on things and stop being so bi*chy..