#1
Hey guys,

So I'm fairly sure this is an illogical question, but I shall ask anyway. So every object has a resonance frequency. Every object. So I would assume that would include the Sun. Well, I'm pretty sure that every object has a counter-resonance frequency as well. The frequency in which an object will break, per se. That being said, could you destroy the Sun using a counter-resonance frequency? I'm aware that this question might be stupid, but I am only in eighth grade and have only lightly touched upon astrophysics. Thanks.
#2
From what I understand (not very much mind you) gasses don't really resonate and any frequency.

so I couldn't really imagine it happening to the sun
It's over simplified, So what!

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#4
Could you do it to the Earth then, assuming everything has an opposite?


Quote by carnagereap666
True, but the Sun's core is iron right? Again, I am not very knowledgeable about astrophysics.



The sun is all gas.
#5
i dont think so unless you made it explode. i dont think you can shake it apart since the sun's gravity will keep it together
#6
Quote by carnagereap666
True, but the Sun's core is iron right? Again, I am not very knowledgeable about astrophysics.






EDIT:

Quote by Vermillionpart2

The sun is all gas.


As far as we know :p
It's over simplified, So what!

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#7
Quote by carnagereap666
True, but the Sun's core is iron right? Again, I am not very knowledgeable about astrophysics.


The Sun's core is also Gas. Mostly Hydrogen with some Helium.
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#9
Quote by carnagereap666
True, but the Sun's core is iron right? Again, I am not very knowledgeable about astrophysics.


No, only planets have iron cores, and even then only some. The core of the sun consists almost entirely of hydrogen nuclei (protons). You don't get heavier elements such as iron, carbon, nitrogen etc until a star dies, at which point it collapses (normally after a period of massive expansion) and a combination of massive gravitational force and the pressure and heat of the event cause the hydrogen and helium that mostly form a star to come together with enough force to create heavy elements such as iron.

tl;dr: we're all star-stuff.
...Stapling helium to penguins since 1949.
#10
Quote by Vermillionpart2
Could you do it to the Earth then, assuming everything has an opposite?


The sun is all gas.



I just discovered I am wrong about counter-resonance. You would just need to match the resonant frequency to destroy something. So I guess in theory, you could do it to Earth.

I am pretty sure there is a layer of liquid iron or something. I recall hearing that. Do you have a source that says the Sun is all gas? I'm not denying you, but I'm unsure.
#11
Quote by carnagereap666
I just discovered I am wrong about counter-resonance. You would just need to match the resonant frequency to destroy something. So I guess in theory, you could do it to Earth.

I am pretty sure there is a layer of liquid iron or something. I recall hearing that. Do you have a source that says the Sun is all gas? I'm not denying you, but I'm unsure.


Here you go.

Not all gas, (well, I guess technically it would be gas, but it isn't entirely formed of elements we consider gaseous) but mostly. There isn't, however, a layer of liquid iron.
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Last edited by Todd Hart at Mar 22, 2012,
#12
The Earth is also a pretty freaking big damper, too. You're not going to blow up the Earth by knocking a tuning fork at a specific frequency, you'd need an insane amount of acoustic power.

And OP, you seem to label a wide variety of things as "astrophysics". Resonant frequency != astrophysics just because you're talking about the sun.
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#13
Sorry about the late responses. As soon as I address one person, four more come up. Haha.

Ironman1478: Obviously we cannot do this. I don't think we could produce a sound loud enough to even do this. I am just talking purely hypothetical though. Thanks for the response though. I think you'd be right about that.

MAC2322: You said it is also gas. Are you implying it is also a liquid of the sorts? Actually, I think it would be plasma, but now I am treading on territory I truly know nothing about.

Todd Hart: I suppose you are right about that, but now instead of debating what the Sun's made of, we need to decide if gasses have a resonant frequency. I am pretty sure they do.
#14
You'd need something very powerful to do it with.
Theoretically, you probably could.

Pretty interesting question, keep your mind open


EDIT: Can gases even have a resonant frequancy? They're smaller than sound waves, so they can't really be affected in that kind of way.
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Last edited by Crazyedd123 at Mar 22, 2012,
#16
Todd Hart: Alright so I think we can safely establish that the Sun is a mass of gasses and plasma. Thanks for your cooperation and for the link.

Wyldething: I am aware of this. As I said in my previous post, humans are not at a technological level to do this. I am talking purely hypothetical. Kind of like how Wormholes don't exist as far as we know, but there is certainly evidence to support them. They are supported by evidence, but not plausible. (Please don't start another debate about wormholes.)

As for the astrophysical labeling, I would think that physics that relate to the cosmos and not just on Earth would be appropriate for the title of astrophysics. But as you can see, I have also labeled it an acoustical physics thread. I figured they both kind of worked on this subject.
#17
Quote by carnagereap666
Todd Hart: I suppose you are right about that, but now instead of debating what the Sun's made of, we need to decide if gasses have a resonant frequency. I am pretty sure they do.


They don't - at least not in an appreciable manner. Resonance requires on transference of energy, which is notably limited in gases due to the fact that the atoms/molecules have some considerable distance between them. Of course, gases do resonate to a degree, as can be seen by the ability to extinguish sensitive-flames using acoustics (although technically flames are a plasma, but they are dependent on gaseous interactions, and it's this being disturbed which extinguishes sensitive-flames).

The issue with the sun is that it is impossible for you to directly transfer resonance to it, as it is within a vacuum. Assuming you could, however, given the mass of the sun you would need an unimaginable amount of sound energy to illicit any response - and even if you could deliver such force, I'm still not convinced gases even have specific, fixed resonant frequencies, meaning that you wouldn't be able to do anything to it.
...Stapling helium to penguins since 1949.
#18
Just because something is not a metal doesn't mean it can't behave like a metal. The cores of both Jupiter and Saturn are hydrogen, but because the gravity is so intense its compressed to what is called metallic hydrogen.

If you want to know what a star is made of, look at light spectrums (I don't know the actual term) but its real easy to know whats in a star based on the colors it produces. Certain elements produce certain colors, its how we know the sun is made of hydrogen, helium, and other trace metals. If you look at the color spectrum of older stars, they are only comprised of hyrdogen and helium, but newer stars are comprised of other elements (the result of novas and what not).

Anyway, I can't go into the science, but frequency is energy. Standing next to the sun with a speaker that produces its resonant frequency (although I don't know how it works with massive objects) will not cause any effects unless its a comparable energy. Its easy to screw with glass and other objects because they are small and simple, the sun, while simple in a sense, is in no way small.
#19
Crazyedd123: That's what I think we should discuss next. I'm not sure if gasses could have a resonant frequency. If a solid can, I don't see exactly why a mass of concentrated gas couldn't. Does anyone have any input on the topic?

Vermillionpart2: I believe so. Glass could break when an operatic person sings. This is because of the relatively low resonant frequency and hollowness and some other stuff. And glass is a solid, so I suppose it would work.
#20
Quote by Kenjisan231
Just because something is not a metal doesn't mean it can't behave like a metal. The cores of both Jupiter and Saturn are hydrogen, but because the gravity is so intense its compressed to what is called metallic hydrogen.


Indeed, but there's no way the frequency you were attempting to use would possibly make it to the core of the sun, given the 'noise' created by the outer shells.
...Stapling helium to penguins since 1949.
#21
I think gas does have a resonant frequency, but it's negligable because the molecules in the gas don't interact with each other that much.
The reason resonant frequencies in solids (and sometimes liquids) is such a strange thing is because of the effect the resonant frequency can have on the object.
Solids have their molecules densely packed into a small area where they cannot move freely.
When you introduce a resonant frequency (or counter-resonant, I forget which one), it causes the molecules to move; this can cause the bonds between the different molecules to break.

Plus, the Sun exists in a vacuum, as stated above.
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#22
If you weren't 14 I would be very upset at the derpiness of this thread, TS.
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#24
Todd Hart: As I said, it is impossible to do this experiment. But I am thinking on a hypothetical scale. I'm not taking into account the man hours, funds, transportation, energy required to run the ships to get you there. I am just talking purely hypothetical.

Kenjisan231: You're right. I believe the gravity pulls together the gasses so tightly compact, it behaves like a semi-solid, right? As for light-spectrum stuff, I recall seeing a special on Wormholes with Brian Cox that explained light-spectrums. I also know that the bluer a star, the hotter. So like, Betelgeuse is cooler than the Sun. And the Sun is cooler than a white-dwarf or brown-dwarf, I think.
#25
Quote by theogonia777
If you weren't 14 I would be very upset at the derpiness of this thread, TS.


Acoustics are not my thing. Now black holes, the Big Bang Theory, and Space-Time Fabric stuff is my forte. I love the science behind black holes. Time dilation and shit. I love it. But acoustics and rotations of planets and orbital patterns? No.
#26
Quote by carnagereap666
Todd Hart: As I said, it is impossible to do this experiment. But I am thinking on a hypothetical scale. I'm not taking into account the man hours, funds, transportation, energy required to run the ships to get you there. I am just talking purely hypothetical.


Yes, but even if you could generate the correct frequency there is no way to deliver it into the core of the sun, which is the only part you could hope of inducing some kind of resonance within. Assuming you could, I still highly doubt anything would happen. The issue with logic such as 'all objects have a resonant frequency' is that such deductive reasoning based on the macroscopic level we are used to (that is, the level of things like tables and glasses and spoons that we typically interact with) is that it simply doesn't apply to things of massively high energy or quantum states (the sun falling into the former of the two).
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#27
Quote by Todd Hart
Yes, but even if you could generate the correct frequency there is no way to deliver it into the core of the sun, which is the only part you could hope of inducing some kind of resonance within. Assuming you could, I still highly doubt anything would happen. The issue with logic such as 'all objects have a resonant frequency' is that such deductive reasoning based on the macroscopic level we are used to (that is, the level of things like tables and glasses and spoons that we typically interact with) is that it simply doesn't apply to things of massively high energy or quantum states (the sun falling into the former of the two).


I see, but if the core is akin to a solid, and you had the right frequency plus volume plus blah blah blah, you could rupture the bonds holding the core together. This would then wreck the Sun's shit. I don't see why affecting the core would not do anything. What is your logic behind that? Do you have an article I can read? If the molecular bonds of the Sun's core are broken through resonant frequencial tampering, the Sun would cease all operations, right? Obviously, at the Quantum level, the laws of physics are to particles as bibles are to atheists, but we are talking at the molecular and atomic levels, which I believe still correspond with our laws of physics.
#28
Quote by carnagereap666
I see, but if the core is akin to a solid, and you had the right frequency plus volume plus blah blah blah, you could rupture the bonds holding the core together. This would then wreck the Sun's shit. I don't see why affecting the core would not do anything. What is your logic behind that? Do you have an article I can read? If the molecular bonds of the Sun's core are broken through resonant frequencial tampering, the Sun would cease all operations, right? Obviously, at the Quantum level, the laws of physics are to particles as bibles are to atheists, but we are talking at the molecular and atomic levels, which I believe still correspond with our laws of physics.


I doubt it. See, the core of the sun isn't a solid in the same sense that a glass is solid - as it is held together by gravitational forces and pressure from the rest of the sun, as opposed to nuclear forces in the case of the glass. It is these nuclear forces that break when an object is subjected to counter-resonance; and so in the absence of these forces it is unlikely that a counter-resonant frequency would illicit and effect. There are no molecular bonds between the hydrogen/helium atoms in the core of the sun - they are simply forced into an incredible dense form by gravity; meaning it's not actually a solid.
...Stapling helium to penguins since 1949.
#29
Quote by Todd Hart
No, only planets have iron cores, and even then only some. The core of the sun consists almost entirely of hydrogen nuclei (protons).


Yep.

You don't get heavier elements such as iron, carbon, nitrogen etc until a star dies, at which point it collapses (normally after a period of massive expansion) and a combination of massive gravitational force and the pressure and heat of the event cause the hydrogen and helium that mostly form a star to come together with enough force to create heavy elements such as iron.


Not quite. Once a star runs out of Hydrogen to burn, it'll start fusing the Helium it created from it into Carbon. Once that runs out, the star will either die (shed its outer layers and live humbly as a white dwarf for the rest of eternity) or, if it is massive enough, it will start burning the Carbon into Oxygen. More massive stars will proceed to fuse Oxygen into Neon, Neon to Magnesium, so on and so forth until it reaches Iron, which it cannot fuse further. It's at this point that a Supernova occurs, spreading these newly created elements into space.

So yeah, the nova happens after all the elements have been created.

Quote by Todd Hart
It is these nuclear forces that break when an object is subjected to counter-resonance;


Breaking of these forces would cause a nuclear explosion. Resonance doesn't take the atoms apart, nor does it even take the molecules apart, what it does is break up the cohesive forces between molecules, breaking the object.

---

On a separate note, there actually ARE sound waves resonating inside the sun. These waves create granular turbulence that we can measure, and it's this method (Helioseismology) that gives us our understanding of the Sun's internal structure. Pretty cool stuff.
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Last edited by MAC2322 at Mar 22, 2012,
#30
Quote by MAC2322
Yep.


Not quite. Once a star runs out of Hydrogen to burn, it'll start fusing the Helium it created from it into Carbon. Once that runs out, the star will either die (shed its outer layers and live humbly as a white dwarf for the rest of eternity) or, if it is massive enough, it will start burning the Carbon into Oxygen. More massive stars will proceed to fuse Oxygen into Neon, Neon to Magnesium, so on and so forth until it reaches Iron, which it cannot fuse further. It's at this point that a Supernova occurs, spreading these newly created elements into space.

So yeah, the nova happens after all the elements have been created.


I wasn't aware of this. Awesome, thanks.

Astronomy and physics isn't really my forte, I'm far better with biology - which is a shame because I most certainly suffer from 'physics envy'.
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#31
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#32
Todd Hart: Fair enough. I can see what you are saying. The Sun's core is not a solid, but it is so dense that appears to be a solid. A thing that I just read said the density of the core was ten times that of lead. So I see what you're talking about now. Also, spitting atoms apart would cause an explosion. I don't think that when humans do that on Earth it causes nuclear explosions.

MAC2322: You are correct about the cohesive forces being broken. You are breaking the glue that holds the molecules together, not the molecules. And if I am correct here, if a star is massive enough when it dies, it could form a black hole, right?
#33
Alright, I shall clear up what I said about the massive star/black hole business.

When a star goes through its stages of life, it starts as a nebula, just gas and dust really. Then, this nebula collapses. The result is nuclear fusion which then powers the star for its entire life. The star then becomes a protostar. The star then begins fusing its elements to power itself, starting first with hydrogen. Then deuterium, and afterwards, helium. Once the hydrogen is all used up, it expands into a red giant. After a while, it uses up all of the helium producing fusions and it expels itself outwards, forming a planetary nebula. At the center of the nebula, there remains the core of the star. At this point, three things could happen. One, a white dwarf can be formed. Two, a neutron star is formed. Or three, a black hole is made. It all depends on the mass of the star. The most massive stars are made into black holes. The middle massive stars are made into white dwarfs or neutron stars. Once the black hole is formed, space-time gets all of its shit ruined. Black holes are the most massive things in the universe that we know of. I believe all this is right. I copied some parts verbatim from Wikipedia.