#1
The band Periphery sounds so awesome but I got the tabs for Buttersnips and it is exactly like the song. I believe 100%. So, in guitar pro I used the tool "find scales from selection" and it always came up with the chromatic scale. I tried this at multiple parts of the song. The closest they got to a scale was like 83% of Major Bebop. How does it sound do good? How do they make a song? Do they just sit around and play random notes for hours until it sounds good?
#2
It depends a lot on the chord progressions etc. It could be using extremely complex chord-scale theory or no theory whatsoever. I know a reasonable bit of theory and often use it, but sometimes forgetting it all and just hitting random notes/chords gets great results
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#3
Quote by TheHumanMeat
The band Periphery sounds so awesome but I got the tabs for Buttersnips and it is exactly like the song. I believe 100%. So, in guitar pro I used the tool "find scales from selection" and it always came up with the chromatic scale. I tried this at multiple parts of the song. The closest they got to a scale was like 83% of Major Bebop. How does it sound do good? How do they make a song? Do they just sit around and play random notes for hours until it sounds good?

I know they don't know too much theory. Have you ever heard Misha's lessons? "Uhm... uh... and then this... uh... yeah... do this... uh... they battle in my head... uh... uhm...". I don't know about the rest, but he's the main writer.

He's just had many years practicing writing. I'm willing to bet he's USING theory (as we all do), he just isn't thinking about it. He has found things that sound good to his ear and committed those positions/sounds to memory.

Lots of years to practice. That's what you need. And theory. Learn theory. It makes things easier. But never use theory to write. It's a tool to describe music, not write music.

And for fun...

#4
I don't think it's random. Metal is based a lot around riffs and adding chromaticism gives a sense of dissonance desirable for the genre. In the end, they probably play what sounds good to them which doesn't mean they don't know theory at all.
#5
So if I were to want him as one of my influences and kind of want to sound like them. Do I just play around with chords and just make strange progression then solo over them?
#6
Quote by TheHumanMeat
So if I were to want him as one of my influences and kind of want to sound like them. Do I just play around with chords and just make strange progression then solo over them?

Definitely not. How do you think all music was made? People played around with chords. Now how much of that music ACTUALLY sounds like Periphery?

Learn their songs, learn what they do... and then make it your own.
#7
Let me break this to you gently.... Many thousands of very fine musicians and songwriters have produced many more thousands of great songs and performances without any "theory" whatever.

If you aked most all the great blues artists who were the grandfathers of what we now call "rock" music now to show you a pentatonic scale or a diminished chord you would probably get blank stares.
#8
Quote by Bikewer
Let me break this to you gently.... Many thousands of very fine musicians and songwriters have produced many more thousands of great songs and performances without any "theory" whatever.

If you aked most all the great blues artists who were the grandfathers of what we now call "rock" music now to show you a pentatonic scale or a diminished chord you would probably get blank stares.


Which doesn't mean learning theory won't prove very beneficial to any aspiring musicians.
#9
Quote by Bikewer
Let me break this to you gently.... Many thousands of very fine musicians and songwriters have produced many more thousands of great songs and performances without any "theory" whatever.

If you aked most all the great blues artists who were the grandfathers of what we now call "rock" music now to show you a pentatonic scale or a diminished chord you would probably get blank stares.

Whether or not they knew the naming conventions is irrelevent because they did know those things and even how they worked musically. It's a poor excuse to dissuade others from knowledge.
#10
Virtually all musicians know some level or form of theory, implicitly, at least at a very basic level. When they say they don't, they are underestimating themselves or have some confusion about what it means to know theory, and are likely intimidated by the language used by others who have explicitly delved into theory.
#11
Theory isn't something you "use" its just something you're cognizant of.

Periphery...and all djent metal isn't primarily concerned with chord progressions or functional harmony. It's based on being highly dissonant, and rhythmically driven. You should analyse the important aspects of that kind of music, and that'd be the "theory" they use.
#12
Quote by TheHumanMeat
The band Periphery sounds so awesome but I got the tabs for Buttersnips and it is exactly like the song. I believe 100%. So, in guitar pro I used the tool "find scales from selection" and it always came up with the chromatic scale. I tried this at multiple parts of the song. The closest they got to a scale was like 83% of Major Bebop. How does it sound do good? How do they make a song? Do they just sit around and play random notes for hours until it sounds good?

Whether or not they se theory doesn't mean thery does or does not apply to their music. Theory is primarily for ANALYZING music that has already been written, not for writing it, so you can definitely use theory to analyze their songs. Theory can apply to literally almost every sound that you could possibly hear, some of it is just more obscure than the rest. This band may be difficult to understand, but that doesn't mean theory just doesn't work for them.
#13
No, because Misha follows his ear and knows what sounds good. He doesn't just **** around aimlessly. Whether he knows the technical terms or not is a different matter.

But if you knew theory, you'd know exactly why Periphery's music works the way it does.
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#14
Most bands just write what sounds good, some people are aware of the theory but don't write using (only) it.

Personally I think music written just to satisfy theory is all kinda dull.
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Last edited by ChemicalFire at Mar 24, 2012,
#15
Quote by ChemicalFire
Most bands just write what sounds good, some people are aware of the theory but don't write using (only) it.

Personally I think music written just to satisfy theory is all kinda dull.


Dull hey? Isn't that a bit of a paradox? I mean, theory describes music that's already written. If there's no music already finished, it doesn't do anything. And then if there is music, as theory explains all music, it's automatically dull, but you can't "write" music to "satisfy theory". Theory will just explain what it is.....

So if I used theory to explain Periphery's music I'd make it duller right?
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#16
Three points:

First, I didn't listen to much of the song, but it's abundantly clear that it is consistent with established theory. There was nothing that struck me as particularly surprising or unusual in the music. You can't use software to tell you what key something is because nobody has yet devised software that can understand which notes are the notes that matter and which notes are just the passing notes. You have to use your ear to find the resolution and work from there.

Second, to suggest that the guys who investd rock n roll didn't know theory is hugely missing the point, since all their stuff is really quite simple, compared to the music that was being made 30 or 50 or 150 years before. They may not have had the labels, but they were using a simple set of tools that were passed down from player to player.

Third, the relationship between theory and writing is a synergistic one. eg, I was writing a song in G major, when working on the melody I realized that I wanted to harmonize a B. So theory tells me which chords are likely to work well there, and in this case I really wanted to emphasize the B and so I picked Bm. I may well have found this chord anyway, but theory tells which which chords contain the note B, and it also tells me which of those chords are going to be consonant with G major tonality.

A little later in the song the note I want to harmonize is a Bb. Again, theory tells me that, in G, Bb major will work well. Again, I could stumble upon this, but theory tells me this is a worthwhile first place to look. Maybe I'm happy with that, maybe I'm not - but if I'm not, theory can help me quickly find chords which are LIKELY to work.

This is, incidentally, why a little theory can be limiting. Sometimes people learn the harmonized major scale (I ii iii IV V vi viidim) and think that anything beyond that breaks theory - so they don't look at that Bb major. That think it's "wrong" or "anti theoretical."

But this simple example demonstrates something else, too: with just those three chords, we have the following notes: G Bb B Db D F F#. There is common scale in which Bb and B, Db and D, and F and F# all appear, so your "scale finder" is already useless. (And there's an Eb major later in the song, too!)

The deeper you get into theory, the more you realize how hard it is to come up with something that theory doesn't cover. The key is to let theory as a map to help you discover how to get to where you want to go.

Somebody who says they're limited by theory, therefore, is almost certainly somebody who doesn't know very much of it.
#17
the dude definitely knows his stuff and is a damn good players, especially for such a younger age.

i must say that thier music is Fing terrible though. its like bad teenage hardcore emo punk mixed with screamo. its like hawthorne heights meets behemoth
#18
Quote by AlanHB
Dull hey? Isn't that a bit of a paradox? I mean, theory describes music that's already written. If there's no music already finished, it doesn't do anything. And then if there is music, as theory explains all music, it's automatically dull, but you can't "write" music to "satisfy theory". Theory will just explain what it is.....

So if I used theory to explain Periphery's music I'd make it duller right?


No I mean, that if people ignore what sounds good in favour of JUST using theory the music is dull. Not that music is dull if it's described using theory.
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#19
Quote by ChemicalFire
No I mean, that if people ignore what sounds good in favour of JUST using theory the music is dull. Not that music is dull if it's described using theory.


I would be surprised if you could even tell if a song was written by somebody who knew or didn't know theory.

But anyway, how does one write a song "just" using music theory? You can still use all notes and chords. You're not limited in any way.
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#20
A note on scale finders and such: They suck at figuring out what's going on in a song.
I can write a melody that uses the notes of the minor scale and it will spit out all the modes and maybe some names that are clearly not what is actually happening.
But their inadequacy really comes out when you throw in an accidental or two, which results in the program spitting out a meaningless cascade of irrelevant scale names.
Scale programs don't know the context the notes are in, so they quickly become a hindrance to any true understanding of scales.
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#21
Quote by ChemicalFire
No I mean, that if people ignore what sounds good in favour of JUST using theory the music is dull. Not that music is dull if it's described using theory.
I don't think theory means what you think it means. Theory explains. It doesn't prescribe. Never has, never will.

Someone could write an excellent song with crazy harmony and note choices like Periphery without knowing theory. I could write that exact same song and know exactly why it sounds the way it does. How does that make it dull? Ignorance isn't hip.
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#22
Quote by Dayn
I don't think theory means what you think it means. Theory explains. It doesn't prescribe. Never has, never will.

Someone could write an excellent song with crazy harmony and note choices like Periphery without knowing theory. I could write that exact same song and know exactly why it sounds the way it does. How does that make it dull? Ignorance isn't hip.


No I understand that, but maybe to an extent I am miss-understanding it? I have heard some really complex songs that probably use a whole crap tonne of interesting theory that I don't really understand, but it sounds boring.

So I guess what I mean to say is, that to me, just having something which is good on a theoretical level isn't enough?
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#23
Quote by ChemicalFire
So I guess what I mean to say is, that to me, just having something which is good on a theoretical level isn't enough?


Sorry mate, that sentence purely does not make any sense.

There's no good/bad/right/wrong in terms of theory. It just describes what's already written, why it sounds the way it sounds.

Basically, it applies to everything equally.

So yes, you're misunderstanding it to an extent, a really, really large extent. So the question is, "what do you think theory is?".
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#25
Chemicalfire, in your sig it says:

Sometimes I event Genres you've never heard of, just because I can.

Do you mean INVENT genres? That sentence doesn't make sense the way it is written...
#26
Every piece of music ever created is created with music theory. It's possible to explain anything that anybody plays with music theory. So you ultimately get to the same result either way