#1
So I have a question about what chords i can use.
I'm using a scale book that I have, and the scale im using is in the key of C
its called Blues.
its 1 b3 4 4# 5 b7
so the tones are C Eb F F# G A#

I have been reading lessons about how to form triad chords, and this little part threw me off.

the major chord is 1 3 5
so say i want a major chord from A#
that would require me to play A# D and F to play that chord.
am i still playing in the same key as mentioned at the beginning if I play that chord? (A#, D, F) because those notes are not listed in the tones for the scale, but I know the triad itself makes an A# Major Chord.
Any clarity on this is much appreciated.
Thanks


EDIT:: Just thought of this as well, when it comes to forming chords am i restricted to using chords that only have the notes listed in the scale tones?
Last edited by InsaneVendetta at Mar 25, 2012,
#2
When you're playing with a pentatonic or blues scale, just think of it as playing in a minor scale while avoiding the 2nd and 6th. And in the blues scale, the 4# is just a passing tone you probably wouldn't use in any chords. In your example, using an A# major chord just means you'd end up hitting the 2nd (of C minor), which is technically out of the blues scale, but your still just in a minor key.
#3
TS, what are the notes in an A Major scale? What about A# Major?

And yes, there is a purpose for me asking this.
#4
Also the C blues scale is the same as the C minor scale but without a 2nd or 6th (but they still can be played) and a passing tone between 4 and 5. The reason why the 2nd and 6th are usually omitted is because it is easier not to hit a "wrong note".

You would call the A# a Bb, and Bb D and F are all in the C minor scale
Last edited by d1sturbed4eva at Mar 26, 2012,
#5
key points:
1. The blues scale is NOT diatonic like the major scale, so you aren't going to get much mileage out of trying to stack triads out of it.
2. The blues has a very specific function that is incompatible with the basic things you'll learn when harmonizing scales and writing basic progressions
Last edited by chronowarp at Mar 26, 2012,
#6
Quote by InsaneVendetta
So I have a question about what chords i can use.
I'm using a scale book that I have, and the scale im using is in the key of C
its called Blues.
its 1 b3 4 4# 5 b7
so the tones are C Eb F F# G A#

I have been reading lessons about how to form triad chords, and this little part threw me off.

the major chord is 1 3 5
so say i want a major chord from A#
that would require me to play A# D and F to play that chord.
am i still playing in the same key as mentioned at the beginning if I play that chord? (A#, D, F) because those notes are not listed in the tones for the scale, but I know the triad itself makes an A# Major Chord.


I don't really understand exactly what your question is, but:

Well, for what it's worth, A# is usually referred to as Bb. The reason is obvious when you give the notes of "A# major" their proper names: A#, C## and E#.

Whereas Bb major, the same chord, is Bb, D, and F. Much easier to deal with. Sometimes you've got to refer to it as A#, but most of the time you don't. In this case, it would be proper to call it a Bb (because it's the 7th in a C scale).

So your Bb major chord is going to have one note that's out of the scale you're soloing with. There's no D in the scale. That may create a musical tension that you find pleasing.


EDIT:: Just thought of this as well, when it comes to forming chords am i restricted to using chords that only have the notes listed in the scale tones?


No. You're not.

The blues is very much built on dissonances between the chords and the scale notes. But even in more straightforward western harmonies, you can use chords that don't include notes in the scale. eg, you'll see Bb and Eb major used quite often in progressions which are in the key of C.
#7
Quote by InsaneVendetta
So I have a question about what chords i can use.
I'm using a scale book that I have, and the scale im using is in the key of C
its called Blues.
its 1 b3 4 4# 5 b7
so the tones are C Eb F F# G A#

I have been reading lessons about how to form triad chords, and this little part threw me off.

the major chord is 1 3 5
so say i want a major chord from A#
that would require me to play A# D and F to play that chord.
am i still playing in the same key as mentioned at the beginning if I play that chord? (A#, D, F) because those notes are not listed in the tones for the scale, but I know the triad itself makes an A# Major Chord.
Any clarity on this is much appreciated.
Thanks


EDIT:: Just thought of this as well, when it comes to forming chords am i restricted to using chords that only have the notes listed in the scale tones?


Much of your "knowledge" is flawed.

For example, A to D is 4 letters away, so how can you have D as the 3rd of A, when it's 4 alphabetic letters?

A# Major would be A# Cx E# - as you might see theres a bit more to it that you think, and so I'd suggest slowing down and starting simple. Learn music theory - maybe online or through a book. We teach all this, but there's lots of ways that you can start working it out.

Second the "Blues note" is not a #4 but a b5. I see why you miscalled it, but just so you understand, how you call something can have a lot to do with why you ultimately cannot understand it.

Best,

Sean
#8
First off, Thanks to everyone who is trying to help my dumbass understand music theory.
haha.

i guess a better way to phrase what im trying to find out is, how can i know what chords i can use with any given scale?


Quote by d1sturbed4eva
TS, what are the notes in an A Major scale? What about A# Major?

And yes, there is a purpose for me asking this.

W W H W W W H
A Major scale - A B C# D E F# G#
A# Major scale - A# C D D# F G A
#9
Quote by InsaneVendetta
First off, Thanks to everyone who is trying to help my dumbass understand music theory.
haha.

i guess a better way to phrase what im trying to find out is, how can i know what chords i can use with any given scale?


W W H W W W H
A Major scale - A B C# D E F# G#
A# Major scale - A# C D D# F G A


The correct answer to the notes of the A# Major scale would be either
1: A# B# C## D# E# F# G## or the simpler, more useful,
2: Bb C D Eb F G A

The reason it is this, and not the answer you gave? Diatonic scales are to have each letter exactly one time, and not repeat. Your answer gives no B (which would imply there is no second) and has two Ds (which would imply there are two thirds). Understanding this concept is important for understanding chords.

Just do some research on diatonic scales and the basic chord knowledge will come with that.
#10
Quote by InsaneVendetta

A Major scale - A B C# D E F# G#
A# Major scale - A# C D D# F G A


Yeah, this is the reason why I asked you this, because it's a common misunderstanding to those who are new at theory. You have the A Major scale right, so why don't you just add sharps to everything to make it A# Major? You can only have one alphabetic name for each note in the Major scale, so that's why you see double-sharps (Cx instead of D for an example).
#11
^
2 Ds imply 2 fourths, not two thirds, but the rest of it is correct
Quote by Xiaoxi
The Byzantine scale was useful until the Ottoman scale came around and totally annihilated it.
#12
Quote by mrkeka
^
2 Ds imply 2 fourths, not two thirds, but the rest of it is correct


I never said A to a D was a third... Sorry if I wasn't clear in my post, but I'm not sure where you got that from.
#13
Quote by mrkeka
^
2 Ds imply 2 fourths, not two thirds, but the rest of it is correct


I started accidentally thinking of C as the root note, like the beginning of the thread, mid-thought. My bad.
#14
Quote by d1sturbed4eva
I never said A to a D was a third... Sorry if I wasn't clear in my post, but I'm not sure where you got that from.


He was addressing me.
#15
it was for the post above yours, and I think I read it wrong anyway, sorry
Quote by Xiaoxi
The Byzantine scale was useful until the Ottoman scale came around and totally annihilated it.
#16
Quote by InsaneVendetta

i guess a better way to phrase what im trying to find out is, how can i know what chords i can use with any given scale?


Well, the funny thing is that people usually ask this question the other way around, and I think asking it the other way around makes it easier to answer.

If you're asking what scale you can use with a specific set of chords, the answer is: "whichever one gives you the sound you want." Eg I can play an E major melody over E A B C#m or I can play an E blues melody over it. They'll both work, but they'll both be DIFFERENT. One isn't right and the other wrong.

When you have a melody line (and your solo is - or should be - a melody line), however, you harmonize it. You take the stressed syllables and generally find chords that contain the stressed notes and support the musical journey of the song.

Over the C blues scale you could play chords that work in C major, or chords that work in C minor, pretty easily.

People usually start learning how to harmonize stuff by learning the harmonized major scale: I ii iii IV V vi viiDim. Then you start adding in chords from paralel scales: bIII, bVI, bVIII. iv, etc.

But the key here is not so think of "what chords go with this scale?" but rather "what chords go with this melody"
#17
Firstly hello!!

The blues scale spelling related to a major scale is

1,b3,4,b5,5,b7,8

The actual chords used within blues does not follow the scale. confused? It actaully follows the major scale with alterations.....

Instead of waffalling on here I do a full course on this very subject on my website www.randlesomeguitar.co.uk don't worry its an honor basis site so you don't pay if you don't want to!!

Any questions message me through the site as i don't always get round to responding on here...

Thanks
Mark
#18
Just wanted to wish you good luck with your music theory journey. Often i find that as soon as i learn something, i will find a song that breaks all the rules i thought i knew. When i first learned the roman numeral naming system, i thought i was on top of the world, there was 7 basic chords that could be used in any given song, with some extensions (and maybe that is true somehow...) but then you run into a song like "sitting on the dock of the bay" or a song that used the a V of V chord, and all the rules go right out the f'in window.

THEN, someone who actually knows what theyre talking about, will start talking about tonality, and how because he used this chord, or this note, another note is now allowed, and now he can use 8 or 9 notes, instead of 7. it gets VERY confusing very quickly. just wanted to drop in here and let you know if nothing else i feel your pain :P

look at the song: sitting on the dock of the bay, or elliott smiths rose parade, theyre both easy songs, and as far as theory goes, they make all the rules i thought i learned seem like they mean nothing at all :/

best of luck

/e go to your guitar and play these chords lol -> C - > G - > D -> A -> E

5 major chords, i dont think there is any scale that will accomadate this, and for some reason it still sounds good to me, i bet you could use some of that voice leading stuff or make some of them add9 chords, and you might get somethign really pretty.

one more thing, I think alot of it is, music theory works very well, and often things go according to the rules, but then there will be stuff that works, but doenst go with the rules, so someone will say something like chromatic passing note, or tonality, or such and such extended scale in this mode modulated to something something, and this kind of thing makes most ppl think theory is impossible to wrap you're head around, finally i just figure i like what i like, and I take the rules with a grain of salt.
Last edited by blunderwonder at Mar 27, 2012,
#19
thanks to everyone who helped contribute to this thread. first thing tomorrow ill start researching some more music theory based off what you all have said to look at.
thanks again
#20
I just checked all of the lessons in the scales section and didn't find anything about diatonic scales... well none of the titles said diatonic scales... is there something else that they may be called?
#21
Quote by InsaneVendetta
I just checked all of the lessons in the scales section and didn't find anything about diatonic scales... well none of the titles said diatonic scales... is there something else that they may be called?


Diatonic scale = 7 note scale that spans an octave.

Including: major, nat. minor, harm. minor, mel. minor, all modes of the former.
#22
Quote by chronowarp
Diatonic scale = 7 note scale that spans an octave.

Including: major, nat. minor, harm. minor, mel. minor, all modes of the former.



thank you!
ill start learning about those
#23
Quote by InsaneVendetta
the major chord is 1 3 5
so say i want a major chord from A#
that would require me to play A# D and F to play that chord.
am i still playing in the same key as mentioned at the beginning if I play that chord? (A#, D, F) because those notes are not listed in the tones for the scale, but I know the triad itself makes an A# Major Chord.
Any clarity on this is much appreciated.
Thanks


I used to get confused on this as well. I'm sure there's a way to describe why it's so that one of the other guys can expound on, but in short, yes. You're still playing within your key if you play this chord, because the root note of the chord is in the key. It doesn't matter if the other notes are.

What chords can you use in a key? Well, technically the answer is "any chord you want", because out-of-key chords rely on chromatic notes and if they work for you, they work for you. But the simpler answer is that each note has an accompanying chord based on where it falls in the key.

For example, if you're in C-major, the first four notes of the C-major scale are C D E F. The first four chords, however, are major-minor-minor-major. So if your chord progression was I-ii-IV, you'd play C, Dm, F.

The other notes of the chord matter mainly for harmonization. You're going to be harmonizing your melody to them, which usually means picking a note within the chord for the structural tone of your melody.

EDIT:: Just thought of this as well, when it comes to forming chords am i restricted to using chords that only have the notes listed in the scale tones?


No, you're not. Good thing, too; otherwise I'd go bonkers trying to remember which was which. Ultimately, the chord has to sound good under the melody note you're playing over it. However you come up with that is entirely up to you.
#24
Quote by CarsonStevens
I used to get confused on this as well. I'm sure there's a way to describe why it's so that one of the other guys can expound on, but in short, yes. You're still playing within your key if you play this chord, because the root note of the chord is in the key. It doesn't matter if the other notes are.

What chords can you use in a key? Well, technically the answer is "any chord you want", because out-of-key chords rely on chromatic notes and if they work for you, they work for you. But the simpler answer is that each note has an accompanying chord based on where it falls in the key.

For example, if you're in C-major, the first four notes of the C-major scale are C D E F. The first four chords, however, are major-minor-minor-major. So if your chord progression was I-ii-IV, you'd play C, Dm, F.

The other notes of the chord matter mainly for harmonization. You're going to be harmonizing your melody to them, which usually means picking a note within the chord for the structural tone of your melody.


No, you're not. Good thing, too; otherwise I'd go bonkers trying to remember which was which. Ultimately, the chord has to sound good under the melody note you're playing over it. However you come up with that is entirely up to you.


thanks! appreciate the clarity on this
#25
Quote by InsaneVendetta
thanks! appreciate the clarity on this


No problem. If you've got some money to spend, two very accessable books on this topic are "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Music Composition" and "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Solos and Improvisation". I found them invaluable when I was first starting out.