#1
Hey, so I was watching some music videos the other day filmed around where I live (I work at my school's radio station and have to check out local acts), and I came across this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_Rvhffwskw&fb_source=message
Apparently it's quickly becoming a source of controversy in the local Islamic community for it's depiction of meaningful Arabic symbols alongside a (imo) generic, contrived song/love story.

So what's your take on religion in videos? Is it appropriate or does it distract from the actual music?
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#2
I dont mind them. I am tolerant of other people opinions.
One of my favourite bands are these guys, They have a strong anti-religious tone in a few of there songs, but I still like the music.

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#3
Quote by PinkFender_69
So what's your take on religion in videos? Is it appropriate or does it distract from the actual music?

Doesn't the fact you're watching a video distract you from the actual music?

Don't have an opinion on the topic though.
#4
It doesn't bother me. I'm pretty tolerant so I'm not one of those guys who get butthurt whenever I see anything supporting religion then have to go on a rampage boasting how hardcore Atheist I am.
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#5
Don't care. If it fits the song then I guess it is okay. Now, if you go and pull an Sinead O'Connor in a video or live performance... That's not cool, no matter what religion it is.
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#6
Let's stop portraying religion in movies and television and books too because its distracting!
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#7
Im athiest so couldnt care less though most music I listen to is anti gov or..... something example bands - NOFX,sum41,Bad religion,Pennywise etc

try looking on youttube NOFX - im going to hell for this
funny as hell!!!
#8
hm, couldn't care less, never really watched music videos...was more just into the music.
#9
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It doesn't bother me. I'm pretty tolerant so I'm not one of those guys who get butthurt whenever I see anything supporting religion then have to go on a rampage boasting how hardcore Atheist I am.

This.

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#10
Freedom of speech, ain'it? As long the symbols aren't used to incite violence or actual hate speech, I won't protest the use of them.
#11
To clarify, I agree that it is not a big deal, I was just wondering if anyone could decipher why on earth it is offensive. Also, maybe I didn't work my questions properly, I meant to say that when you're watching a video or listening to music, is any outward statement of religious affiliation something you find takes away from the music?
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#12
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To clarify, I agree that it is not a big deal, I was just wondering if anyone could decipher why on earth it is offensive. Also, maybe I didn't work my questions properly, I meant to say that when you're watching a video or listening to music, is any outward statement of religious affiliation something you find takes away from the music?

Not really, especially because most gospel I've heard is boringly generic U2 style pop rock anyway *ba dum tshh*

Seriously if they made the music more interesting maybe I would pay attention to the lyrics. This may sound stupid, but RATM has turned me slightly communist, because I find their music actually exciting and can't help singing along.
#13
Islam needs to realise that it being offended means **** all, and doesn't mean the rest of the world owes them something.
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#14
Quote by Todd Hart
Islam needs to realise that it being offended means **** all, and doesn't mean the rest of the world owes them something.


MASSIVEDIT: I must say, they certainly seem to think like they're the only persecuted group ever...
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Last edited by PinkFender_69 at Mar 28, 2012,
#15
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I must say, they certainly seem like they're the only persecuted group ever...


Being persecuted doesn't grant you the right to demand that other people align with your opinions.
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#16
Quote by PinkFender_69
I must say, they certainly seem like they're the only persecuted group ever...


It's an old-world religion. According to the fundamentalists, you are either with them or against them. It sucks, but that's how most of that part of the world is. Same with Christianity back in Middle Ages and so on.
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#17
Quote by Todd Hart
Being persecuted doesn't grant you the right to demand that other people align with your opinions.


Sorry, see my edit!
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#18
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Sorry, see my edit!


Ah okay.

I don't even think it's that, it's just that Islam has it in its head that world domination is its birth-right. Admittedly so do the other Abrahamic faiths, Islam is just less subtle about it.
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#20
Quote by Todd Hart
Ah okay.

I don't even think it's that, it's just that Islam has it in its head that world domination is its birth-right. Admittedly so do the other Abrahamic faiths, Islam is just less subtle about it.


No, certain individuals within Islam seem to think that world domination is Islam's birth-right, but Islam itself teaches it's followers to respect other people's religious views.

"Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out clear from Error..." (Qur'an. chapter 2/verse 256)
#21
Quote by SlackerBabbath
No, certain individuals within Islam seem to think that world domination is Islam's birth-right, but Islam itself teaches it's followers to respect other people's religious views.

"Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out clear from Error..." (Qur'an. chapter 2/verse 256)


Also in the Qur'an:

'O Prophet! Strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell, - an evil refuge indeed.' (9:73, 66:9)

'Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness.' (25:52)

Religious texts are never consistent on whether one should spread the faith forcefully or respect the belief of others. The fact is that Islam in the middle east is extremely prone to knee-jerk reactions to events in other cultures (calls for Salman Rushdie's death, call for the 'Mohammed comic' writers death, calls for the death of the teacher who named a class's teddy Mohammed etc), and in many Islam dominant countries the punishment for apostasy is death.

And you can't separate a religion from its followers, as they are its sole presence in reality.
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#22
Quote by Todd Hart
Also in the Qur'an:

'O Prophet! Strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell, - an evil refuge indeed.' (9:73, 66:9)


'Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness.' (25:52)

Religious texts are never consistent on whether one should spread the faith forcefully or respect the belief of others.

Where exactly does it say in either of those, or anywhere else in the Qur'an, that one should spread the Islamic faith forcefully? It may suggest that one should strive to spread Islam through persuasion, but never by force.

Quote by Todd Hart

The fact is that Islam in the middle east is extremely prone to knee-jerk reactions to events in other cultures (calls for Salman Rushdie's death, call for the 'Mohammed comic' writers death, calls for the death of the teacher who named a class's teddy Mohammed etc), and in many Islam dominant countries the punishment for apostasy is death.

And you can't separate a religion from its followers, as they are its sole presence in reality.

Ahh, so members of the WBC are exactly the same as members of any other Christian church?
Last edited by SlackerBabbath at Mar 28, 2012,
#23
free speech; don't care if religion is put in videos or not
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#24
Quote by SlackerBabbath
Where exactly does it say in either of those, or anywhere else in the Qur'an, that one should spread the faith forcefully? It may suggest that one spreads Islam through persuasion, but never by force.


Well seeing as their main prophet was effectively a warlord who rallied against multiple cities and tribes (Mecca, the Bana Kuraza (sp) etc) for their lack of faith I'd say it certainly appears to endorse the concept.

Ahh, so members of the WBC are exactly the same as members of any other Christian church?


No, but the WBC are actually following what it says in the Bible far stricter than the majority of other churches - and thus are more appropriately following the religion as it is intended in the 'unchanging' book at the centre of its faith.

I want to clarify that I'm not saying that all Muslim people support the fundamentalists, or that all Christians support the WBC etc. What I'm saying is that the beliefs of the fundamentalists are entirely grounded in fairly valid readings of the religious texts which form these religions, and as such it is a fault of the religion that these concepts exist.

The issue is that religious belief is held up on some kind of pedestal and whenever it is insulted, whether for comedic effect or irony or genuine dislike, it is seen as an atrocious act - even by secular society. Imagine if it were the same for politics in the western world. What if every time a politician or political stance was satired or insulted a group of fundamentalist conservatives or liberals demanded the death of the person who made the joke/point? Religion shouldn't be excluded from debate, satire and popular culture merely for its status as a belief.
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#26
Quote by Todd Hart
Well seeing as their main prophet was effectively a warlord who rallied against multiple cities and tribes (Mecca, the Bana Kuraza (sp) etc) for their lack of faith I'd say it certainly appears to endorse the concept.

He fought some Meccan tribes who attacked him first, self defence is allowed in Islam.


Quote by Todd Hart

No, but the WBC are actually following what it says in the Bible far stricter than the majority of other churches - and thus are more appropriately following the religion as it is intended in the 'unchanging' book at the centre of its faith.

"Unchanging"? That's Old Testament stuff, or 'Judaism', the religion that Christianity 'changed' with the New Testament.
Quote by Todd Hart

I want to clarify that I'm not saying that all Muslim people support the fundamentalists, or that all Christians support the WBC etc. What I'm saying is that the beliefs of the fundamentalists are entirely grounded in fairly valid readings of the religious texts which form these religions, and as such it is a fault of the religion that these concepts exist.

I disagree, fundamentals constantly go against their own religion's rules and purposely misinterpret religious texts in order to validate and fulfill their own political agendas.

Quote by Todd Hart

The issue is that religious belief is held up on some kind of pedestal and whenever it is insulted, whether for comedic effect or irony or genuine dislike, it is seen as an atrocious act - even by secular society. Imagine if it were the same for politics in the western world. What if every time a politician or political stance was satired or insulted a group of fundamentalist conservatives or liberals demanded the death of the person who made the joke/point? Religion shouldn't be excluded from debate, satire and popular culture merely for its status as a belief.

Now that's something I do agree with.
#27
Quote by SlackerBabbath
He fought some Meccan tribes who attacked him first, self defence is allowed in Islam.


Beheading all of the members of the tribes you force into surrender doesn't seem like self-defence.

"Unchanging"? That's Old Testament stuff, or 'Judaism', the religion that Christianity 'changed' with the New Testament.


Yes, but the WBC hold to both sections rather well. They believe in the hell fire of the New Testament, and the homophobia of the Old (and New). I meant unchanging as in from a religious perspective - the texts are meant to be unyielding inherent words of the lord, and thus are subject to being altered (how Christianity lives with itself I've never really understood).

I disagree, fundamentals constantly go against their own religion's rules and purposely misinterpret religious texts in order to validate and fulfill their own political agendas.


I don't see how any fundamentalist recently have gone against their texts (except by following one command/moral that was hypocritically held to be wrong in another part of the text). Jihad is a fundamental part of the Islamic teachings. You're correct in saying that it is intended for defence (force permitted) of the faith rather than progression of it, but this means that Islam dictates to its believers that demanding and fighting for (with force) the destruction/removal of slanderous (or presumed to be slanderous) images and ideas is allowed, and it means that other passages that state that you must respect the beliefs of others can be superseded, as there isn't a given hierarchy of idea validity. It is exactly this that means that an interpretation that allows for suicide bombing is equally as valid as one that necessitates peace and harmony.

Now that's something I do agree with.


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#28
Lol, I figured this might descend into a discussion of Islam. Ahh well, anything that spurs on good debate.
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I'm not in college, but i'd imagine the parties like the ones I just downloaded...

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Hey, one of those people is me!

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#29
Quote by Todd Hart
Beheading all of the members of the tribes you force into surrender doesn't seem like self-defence.

Beheading enemy soldiers was a pretty common occurence back then, it stopped them escaping and killing more of your side.
Let me ask you something, if Mohammad was the bloodthirsty tyrant of a warlord who attacked and killed entire communities for their lack of faith in Islam that you make him out to be, why did he have the Constitution of Medina drafted?

The Constitution of Medina was a formal agreement between Muhammad and all of the significant religious groups, tribes and families of Medina, including Muslims, Jews, Christians and pagans, which together are known as the 'Ummah' which basicaly means 'community' or 'nation'.

Non-Muslims had certain rights under the constitution.
1. The security of God is equal for all groups.
2. Non-Muslim members have equal political and cultural rights as Muslims. They will have autonomy and freedom of religion.
3. Non-Muslims will take up arms against the enemy of the Ummah and share the cost of war. There is to be no treachery between the two.
4. Non-Muslims will not be obliged to take part in religious wars of the Muslims.

Quote by Todd Hart

Yes, but the WBC hold to both sections rather well. They believe in the hell fire of the New Testament, and the homophobia of the Old (and New).

But they completely ignore the basic tenets of Christianity of not judging others and treating others how they would wish to be treated themselves, as taught by Jesus himself.

One thing that all Abrahamic faiths hold in common is that they all consider it to be God's place to judge others and nobody elses, accusations made against others are actualy linked to Satan, who was originaly considered as an accuser appointed by God to test men's faith, 'Ha-Satan', as he was originaly known as, is traditionaly translated as “the accuser”.

The only homophobia in the New Testament is from Paul the Apostle, a Hellenised Jew who never met Jesus.

Quote by Todd Hart

I don't see how any fundamentalist recently have gone against their texts (except by following one command/moral that was hypocritically held to be wrong in another part of the text). Jihad is a fundamental part of the Islamic teachings. You're correct in saying that it is intended for defence (force permitted) of the faith rather than progression of it, but this means that Islam dictates to its believers that demanding and fighting for (with force) the destruction/removal of slanderous (or presumed to be slanderous) images and ideas is allowed, and it means that other passages that state that you must respect the beliefs of others can be superseded, as there isn't a given hierarchy of idea validity. It is exactly this that means that an interpretation that allows for suicide bombing is equally as valid as one that necessitates peace and harmony.

Jihad basicaly means 'struggle' and can be used in three different ways;

1. A believer's internal struggle to live out the Muslim faith as well as possible.
2. The struggle to build a good Muslim society.
3. Holy war: the struggle to defend Islam, with force if necessary.

That last one is made clear over and over again in the Qur'an, force is only to be used if it is absolutely necessary, such as in self defense or the defence of others against those who wish to harm or kill Muslims or attempt to force them into following a different religion. Jihad is a reaction, it reacts to anything that is a threat to Islam and those that follow it.
Now, it may be considered that western philosophies and politics are a threat to Islam, but according to the Qur'an, 'force' is only allowed when defending against equal 'force'. Certain parts of the Qur'an, when read out of context, can read as validating using force against any non-Muslim in the advancement of Islam but only when read out of context.
If a person needs to take a piece of text completely out of context in order to interpret it differently then they are obviously not following and interpreting the texts correctly. I fail to see how doing such a thing can possibly validate suicide bombings in any way.
Last edited by SlackerBabbath at Mar 29, 2012,
#31
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#35
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#36
Two points. 1.) Most religions are going to have Extremists. Its unavoidable. Judging Islamic religion based on the actions of crazy, violent fundamentalists is ignorant.

2.) I think the reason this video may be causing some controversy is simply because traditionally, Islamic people take their religion very seriously. It is a much larger part of their lives than religion is to the typical American/British/Whatever person. It is very sacred to them, and if they were to see it depicted in a (like you said) contrived, generic love story, they may see it as a bit disrespectful.

That all being said, Religion is just another thing an artist can throw into a video to, hopefully, make whatever point they're trying to make. It's all artistic expression, and people are going to be butthurt about art until the end of time. As long as the artist can convey his message, that's really all that's important.
#37
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2.) I think the reason this video may be causing some controversy is simply because traditionally, Islamic people take their religion very seriously. It is a much larger part of their lives than religion is to the typical American/British/Whatever person. It is very sacred to them, and if they were to see it depicted in a (like you said) contrived, generic love story, they may see it as a bit disrespectful.



I can't see how, traditionaly, one of the greatest love stories ever told is considered to be the story of Muhammad and Khadijah, the daughter of Khuwaylid. Islam has it's fair share of love stories within it's religion, so I don't see why Muslims should have a problem with Islamic love stories.