Page 4 of 7
#121
@chronowarp, +1 for the comment on Louis Armstrong and jazz in general.

@BadBanshee, don't forget that there are many subgenres of jazz just as there are many subgenres of metal, electronic, classical, etc. The more you delve into a style, the more you begin to hear the difference.
#123
That would be like saying Sabbath weren't *real* metal.
But boys will be boys and girls have those eyes
that'll cut you to ribbons, sometimes
and all you can do is just wait by the moon
and bleed if it's what she says you ought to do
#124
Banshee, if you're still looking for a band/guitarist to listen to that you want to bang your head to, give Kyuss (Josh Homme is the guitarist, he's currently in QOTSA) a listen to. They're stoner-rock (not metal ) and are in the same vein as Sabbath. Their music isn't technical, but its the simplicity, like in jazz (just compared jazz to Kyuss - win!) that makes Kyuss awesome. Give this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcY3UF6_IaM&feature=related a listen to. Maybe you'll like it.
Caution:
This post may contain my opinion and/or inaccurate information.

Current Rig:
2006 PRS CE-24
Mesa/Boogie Mark V
Voltage S212 w/ V30's
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TC Electronics Corona & Hall of Fame
#125
Quote by AWACS
Banshee, if you're still looking for a band/guitarist to listen to that you want to bang your head to, give Kyuss (Josh Homme is the guitarist, he's currently in QOTSA) a listen to. They're stoner-rock (not metal ) and are in the same vein as Sabbath. Their music isn't technical, but its the simplicity, like in jazz (just compared jazz to Kyuss - win!) that makes Kyuss awesome. Give this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcY3UF6_IaM&feature=related a listen to. Maybe you'll like it.
~

Yes! I see what you mean about the simplicity. It's like the space in between the little bitesized riffs that really brings drama to the story. By the time it reaches the chorus, the dynamics shift completely to bring out the full emotional capacity of the now-set story, and that's just developed further in the subsequent instrumental parts. At 5:38 the contemplation begins. It's executed to good effect on me at least. I can't believe it's 9 minutes long, the beginning part almost felt rushed.

The tab for it on here is 4/5 stars I'll have a go at it later today see what I think.

Just listened to Asteroid aswell.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fu7TnU9DZKM
Definitely my kind of thing. Love the psychedelic ensemble of guitar sounds at 2:44-3:08
#126
Something by Prince? He's a hell of a guitarist.
Quote by slash11896
I picked up my guitar this morning and started playing next thing i know i cant stop playing In the key of A, the first letter or her name, I ended up recording a whole song in A.


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#127
Quote by chronowarp
Wow, you have a convoluted and completely wrong understanding of what Jazz is.

Congrats.

+1

If you take the time to really understand music you will enjoy jazz and understand it. to improvise (create music on the spot) especially when counterpointing it with the harmony is extremely difficult. Music is an art not a race.
#130
The entire band of Scale the Summit is also "technical". They're very musical, but are also able to "shred". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_eh6C0EBP8&feature=related The song is called Whales.
Caution:
This post may contain my opinion and/or inaccurate information.

Current Rig:
2006 PRS CE-24
Mesa/Boogie Mark V
Voltage S212 w/ V30's
Strymon Timeline
CMATMods Signa Drive
TC Electronics Corona & Hall of Fame
#132
Quote by chronowarp
thats cool, my buddy mark from tetrafusion just joined scale the summit as their new bass player.

thats awesome, it'd be even more awesome if you could hear the bass in the mix
#133
There are plenty of metal players who sweep pick the same basic shapes all the time and do nothing else. There are plenty of non-metal players who improvise amazingly, get there fingers to move in ways others can't, tap, etc. Genres don't define talent, there could be a pop guitarists out there who's better than a prog guitarist
Last edited by TMVATDI at Apr 3, 2012,
#134
Quote by jayx124
+1

If you take the time to really understand music you will enjoy jazz and understand it. to improvise (create music on the spot) especially when counterpointing it with the harmony is extremely difficult. Music is an art not a race.


Nah I don't buy it. Especially not when you listen to the Jimmy Bruno improvisation posted ealier in this thread, reposted for your convenience: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMVAyf9s2o0&feature=related

No doubt he has a good understanding of the fretboard but because of the style he plays in, it doesn't matter if he played half the notes wrong.

Something I think me and UG Jazz fans can agree with is that this kind of Jazz is devoid of emotion. It might make you feel somewhat calm in a spiritual way but imv that's because the music is like a plain of meaninglessness. In a meaningless world you have 2 choices: adopt a spiritual view of your surroundings or slit your own throat.

In fact, I was technically wrong when he said he could have played half the notes wrong and he would have gotten away with it. Hydra150 was right when he said that there are no wrong notes in Jazz. That's because in a purely pointless piece of music, right and wrong goes out of the window!

Now for some seriously impressive guitar improvisation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IenZM00GJLg
"Which road do I take"? she asked.
"Where do you want to go?" was his response.
"I don't know", Alice answered.
"Then", said the cat,
"it doesn't matter.”
#135
Quote by BadBanshee

No doubt he has a good understanding of the fretboard but because of the style he plays in, it doesn't matter if he played half the notes wrong.
You're taking that joke a little too literally. There can definitely be wrong notes. His note choices do matter. There isn't a wrong note in there. All of the choices he made are logical and musical. You just have a very undeveloped ear.

Something I think me and UG Jazz fans can agree with is that this kind of Jazz is devoid of emotion. It might make you feel somewhat calm in a spiritual way but imv that's because the music is like a plain of meaninglessness. In fact, I was technically wrong when he said he could have played half the notes wrong and he would have gotten away with it. Hydra150 was right when he said that there are no wrong notes in Jazz. That's because in a purely pointless piece of music, right and wrong goes out of the window!
While I see what you're trying to get at, you couldn't have put it in a more crass way.

Yes, a lot of jazz is based on a sense of absolutism (see absolute vs programmatic music on Wikipedia). But it is not devoid of emotion. Emotion is a result of interpretation. Most metal, despite having lyrics to verbally express emotions, can be completely emotionless to me. So it's not something that everyone can agree on.

But not having an explicit story or message is not the same thing as being pointless. The music serves itself, but that doesn't mean there is no obligations to make it coherent.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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Last edited by Xiaoxi at Apr 3, 2012,
#136
No doubt he has a good understanding of the fretboard but because of the style he plays in, it doesn't matter if he played half the notes wrong.


Sigh. Actually, it does matter.

Something I think me and UG Jazz fans can agree with is that this kind of Jazz is devoid of emotion.


Hardly. You just haven't given the music a chance, so of course you can't form any emotional investment with it.

It might make you feel somewhat calm in a spiritual way but imv that's because the music is like a plain of meaninglessness. In a meaningless world you have 2 choices: adopt a spiritual view of your surroundings or slit your own throat.


The only reason you percieve it as "meaningless" is that you don't understand it.
#137
Let me tell you a story.....
When I started taking guitar lessons back in 1994 my teacher was a jazz guy and HUGE Pat Metheny fan. He wrote on the back of some sheet music (Herbie Hancock - Watermelon Man. I still remember to this day) a list of essential Pat Metheny records like Bright Size Life and Question and Answer, and jazz records like John Coltrane's Giant Steps and any "Wes Montgomery without strings" to name a few. Back then I could give a crap. I wanted to shred like Satriani and learn Rush & Widespread Panic songs.

5 years later while my tastes were shifting and I was a better player searching for new music, I found that paper and checked out some the albums. Since then, Pat Metheny is not only one of my favorite guitarist, he one of my favorite musicians, and I have a huge love and appreciation for jazz and other music forms stemming from that exposure.

So, the point is your musical tastes and interests will change with time. Your appreciation for other music will become greater when you advance as a musician. Don't knock it until you understand what you're listening to. Open your ears and your mind. Remember some of the names dropped in this thread, especially in the Jazz realm. They will come back to you one day.
#138
Quote by BadBanshee

Something I think me and UG Jazz fans can agree with is that this kind of Jazz is devoid of emotion.
...
Hydra150 was right when he said that there are no wrong notes in Jazz. That's because in a purely pointless piece of music, right and wrong goes out of the window!


Couldnt disagree more about the first part.

And when I said there were no wrong notes in jazz, I should have finished by saying that some notes are more wrong than others. Ella Fitzgerald once said that there are no wrong notes in jazz, only notes in the wrong places. Sometimes dissonance creates a desirable effect, as does chromaticism.

One could say exactly the same thing about blues of funk (or many other styles) music, you can play any of the 12 notes if you know how to use them - the better a musician/guitarist you are the more freedom in your note choice you have because you know how to get away with pretty much anything.
But boys will be boys and girls have those eyes
that'll cut you to ribbons, sometimes
and all you can do is just wait by the moon
and bleed if it's what she says you ought to do
#139
Quote by BadBanshee
Nah I don't buy it. Especially not when you listen to the Jimmy Bruno improvisation posted ealier in this thread, reposted for your convenience: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMVAyf9s2o0&feature=related

No doubt he has a good understanding of the fretboard but because of the style he plays in, it doesn't matter if he played half the notes wrong.

Something I think me and UG Jazz fans can agree with is that this kind of Jazz is devoid of emotion. It might make you feel somewhat calm in a spiritual way but imv that's because the music is like a plain of meaninglessness. In a meaningless world you have 2 choices: adopt a spiritual view of your surroundings or slit your own throat.

In fact, I was technically wrong when he said he could have played half the notes wrong and he would have gotten away with it. Hydra150 was right when he said that there are no wrong notes in Jazz. That's because in a purely pointless piece of music, right and wrong goes out of the window!

Now for some seriously impressive guitar improvisation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IenZM00GJLg


"it doesn't matter if he played half the notes wrong."
You're digging yourself deeper, and deeper dude...
You have absolutely no IDEA of what's happening harmonically and melodically in that piece of music if that's what you think. If what you were saying is the case...then I'd like you to post a recording of you emulating what he's doing since the notes don't matter...and the speed isn't breakneck.

Dazzle me, superstar.

You need to step back and just realize that you can't connect to Jazz because you simply aren't musically developed enough to even understand it from a listener's perspective. Once you recognize that you can start doing work...and maybe salvage yourself before you really lose it.

I wish I could revert back to my 15 year old self, and then I might be in a position to relate to you, but fortunately, I did the work...When you get to the point of being able to hear changes being superimposed melody, then maybe we can have a discussion.
Last edited by chronowarp at Apr 4, 2012,
#140
I don't see how I have an undeveloped ear UNTIL I can appreciate Jazz. How does that work? Probably in the same way some shredders believe you can't play guitar well until you've learnt how to sweep pick. You guys aren't so different after all!
"Which road do I take"? she asked.
"Where do you want to go?" was his response.
"I don't know", Alice answered.
"Then", said the cat,
"it doesn't matter.”
#141
Difference is having a developed ear (being able to hear and comp or create a melody over any changes for example) is a musical thing whereas being able to sweep pick is a mechanical/technical thing. I'd rather listen to a musician who was good at making music than one that was good at moving his fingers really fast. If they can do both (like many a jazzer can) then thats awesome.
But boys will be boys and girls have those eyes
that'll cut you to ribbons, sometimes
and all you can do is just wait by the moon
and bleed if it's what she says you ought to do
Last edited by Hydra150 at Apr 4, 2012,
#142
Quote by BadBanshee
I don't see how I have an undeveloped ear UNTIL I can appreciate Jazz.

Appreciating it and being able to comprehend it on a basic, tonal level are two different things. You can't even do the latter, which stems from your underdevelopment.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#143
Quote by Xiaoxi
Appreciating it and being able to comprehend it on a basic, tonal level are two different things. You can't even do the latter, which stems from your underdevelopment.


What do you mean I can't comprehend it? All I said was it doesn't appeal to me because each note isn't as thought out or emphasized as for example in rock. It's like each note is just part of a much bigger intellectual display of what you can do with musical theory, rather than using musical theory to bring out a desired emotional effect. I think I understand Jazz, it's just it doesn't appeal to me. I know I like to use absolute language (to save time) but I just assume a level of intelligence in my readers that it is a given that nothing is absolute, and ofcourse what I really mean is that there are instances where I enjoy Jazz. I could even enjoy a piece of Jazz wankage given the right musician at the right time. It's just not my cup of tea. You're assuming too much if you think that means I can't comprehend Jazz on even the most basic level. I just think it's hilarious when you espouse all sorts of rubbish like my ear is undeveloped and I don't understand music.
"Which road do I take"? she asked.
"Where do you want to go?" was his response.
"I don't know", Alice answered.
"Then", said the cat,
"it doesn't matter.”
#144
To be fair you did state earlier in this thread that jazz is basically emotionless music (although in music the 'emotion' is in the ear of the beholder, not inherently within the music, so it may just be that jazz doesnt speak to you as you have said ).
edit:
Quote by BadBanshee

Something I think me and UG Jazz fans can agree with is that this kind of Jazz is devoid of emotion. It might make you feel somewhat calm in a spiritual way but imv that's because the music is like a plain of meaninglessness.
You also implied that jazz soloists might as well be hitting random notes.
But boys will be boys and girls have those eyes
that'll cut you to ribbons, sometimes
and all you can do is just wait by the moon
and bleed if it's what she says you ought to do
Last edited by Hydra150 at Apr 4, 2012,
#145
Quote by BadBanshee
Figure it out by ear instead of using tab? Is that some kind of sick joke? Seriously though why waste so much time?



This is the proof your ear is underdeveloped. You believe learning by ear is a waste of time, so why would you have tried to train your ear?
Quote by Xiaoxi
The Byzantine scale was useful until the Ottoman scale came around and totally annihilated it.
#146
Quote by BadBanshee
What do you mean I can't comprehend it? All I said was it doesn't appeal to me because each note isn't as thought out or emphasized as for example in rock.
It's much more than a matter of preference. You've stated again and again that you think jazz is created out of either randomness without any tonal basis or trying to reach so far beyond tonality with "advanced theory" as the end goal. By not being able to hear the clarity that most jazz, like the Jimmy Bruno improv, actually has and interpreting it as esoteric, you've shown that you have a very underdeveloped ear. I'm not questioning your taste.

It's like each note is just part of a much bigger intellectual display of what you can do with musical theory, rather than using musical theory to bring out a desired emotional effect. I think I understand Jazz...
The first sentence contradicts the second.

You're assuming too much if you think that means I can't comprehend Jazz on even the most basic level. I just think it's hilarious when you espouse all sorts of rubbish like my ear is undeveloped and I don't understand music.

As Homer says, "It's funny because it's true."

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#147
Quote by mrkeka
This is the proof your ear is underdeveloped. You believe learning by ear is a waste of time, so why would you have tried to train your ear?


It's actually not. What it is a proof of is that I've never sat down with a serious intention to learn a whole piece of music by ear alone and that I've usually relied on tab. Might give it a shot right this minute actually.
"Which road do I take"? she asked.
"Where do you want to go?" was his response.
"I don't know", Alice answered.
"Then", said the cat,
"it doesn't matter.”
#148
Quote by Hydra150

edit:You also implied that jazz soloists might as well be hitting random notes.


You agreed!
"Which road do I take"? she asked.
"Where do you want to go?" was his response.
"I don't know", Alice answered.
"Then", said the cat,
"it doesn't matter.”
#149
Quote by Xiaoxi
It's much more than a matter of preference. You've stated again and again that you think jazz is created out of either randomness without any tonal basis or trying to reach so far beyond tonality with "advanced theory" as the end goal. By not being able to hear the clarity that most jazz, like the Jimmy Bruno improv, actually has and interpreting it as esoteric, you've shown that you have a very underdeveloped ear. I'm not questioning your taste.


What exactly do you want me to think or hear though?

The only way we're going to get anywhere here is with a short test. Listen to the first 10 seconds of it and tell me what you hear with your supersonic super developed audio senses. Let's see exactly what it is I'm missing. Let's see if it really is more than a matter of taste.
"Which road do I take"? she asked.
"Where do you want to go?" was his response.
"I don't know", Alice answered.
"Then", said the cat,
"it doesn't matter.”
#150
Quote by BadBanshee
You agreed!

Then I clarified;
Quote by Hydra150

And when I said there were no wrong notes in jazz, I should have finished by saying that some notes are more wrong than others. Ella Fitzgerald once said that there are no wrong notes in jazz, only notes in the wrong places. Sometimes dissonance creates a desirable effect, as does chromaticism.

One could say exactly the same thing about blues of funk (or many other styles) music, you can play any of the 12 notes if you know how to use them - the better a musician/guitarist you are the more freedom in your note choice you have because you know how to get away with pretty much anything.

I definately didn't mean that a solo should be random notes for the sake of playing random notes, that not jazz, thats some crazy C20th aleatoric stuff.
But boys will be boys and girls have those eyes
that'll cut you to ribbons, sometimes
and all you can do is just wait by the moon
and bleed if it's what she says you ought to do
Last edited by Hydra150 at Apr 4, 2012,
#151
Quote by BadBanshee
What exactly do you want me to think or hear though?

The only way we're going to get anywhere here is with a short test. Listen to the first 10 seconds of it and tell me what you hear with your supersonic super developed audio senses. Let's see exactly what it is I'm missing. Let's see if it really is more than a matter of taste.
It would be more revealing to see your analysis...

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#152
I know, but neither did I. Not completely random anyway.

I'm really curious in hearing just how advanced all your ears are. Can you recite note for note the instance each note is played?
"Which road do I take"? she asked.
"Where do you want to go?" was his response.
"I don't know", Alice answered.
"Then", said the cat,
"it doesn't matter.”
#153
Quote by Xiaoxi
It would be more revealing to see your analysis...


Ok, at 7 seconds there is some sort of key change and again at around 8.5 seconds back to the original key. Your turn.
"Which road do I take"? she asked.
"Where do you want to go?" was his response.
"I don't know", Alice answered.
"Then", said the cat,
"it doesn't matter.”
#154
Quote by BadBanshee

I'm really curious in hearing just how advanced all your ears are. Can you recite note for note the instance each note is played?

No, but that's not necessary, and that's not what anyone is getting at. Rather, it's that we can take in the overall picture and clearly see the delineation, whereas you seem unable to make out anything.

Quote by BadBanshee
Ok, at 7 seconds there is some sort of key change and again at around 8.5 seconds back to the original key. Your turn.

Ok, but what's happening within each key? How does the modulation relate to the material in the first key?

edit: didn't take into account the timings you're talking about. No, you're completely off in that case.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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Last edited by Xiaoxi at Apr 4, 2012,
#155
Quote by Xiaoxi
No, but that's not necessary, and that's not what anyone is getting at. Rather, it's that we can take in the overall picture and clearly see the delineation, whereas you seem unable to make out anything.


Ok, but what's happening within each key? How does the modulation relate to the material in the first key?

edit: didn't take into account the timings you're talking about. No, you're completely off in that case.


I don't know what you're talking about to be perfectly honest but I'm sure you're not going to be a spoilsport and you're going to enlighten me.
"Which road do I take"? she asked.
"Where do you want to go?" was his response.
"I don't know", Alice answered.
"Then", said the cat,
"it doesn't matter.”
#156
Quote by BadBanshee
I don't know what you're talking about to be perfectly honest but I'm sure you're not going to be a spoilsport and you're going to enlighten me.

I don't even really need to get into any specifics. Shouldn't the fact that you don't know what I'm talking about be any indication that, maybe, just maybe, you really do have a weak spot? That's really all that's needed to "enlighten" you, or at least the first step.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#157
Knew it. All talk.

What about you Hydra105, care to give it a go? I did.

edit: Holy Macaroni! Xiaoxi has a black Jackson I did not expect that!
"Which road do I take"? she asked.
"Where do you want to go?" was his response.
"I don't know", Alice answered.
"Then", said the cat,
"it doesn't matter.”
Last edited by BadBanshee at Apr 4, 2012,
#158
Nope, Im not a theory genius like Xiaoxi and I'm not well versed in playing jazz (not much more than a beginner in the style), although I do enjoy listening to it.

edit: Ive got a black ibanez - do I get so macaroni too?
But boys will be boys and girls have those eyes
that'll cut you to ribbons, sometimes
and all you can do is just wait by the moon
and bleed if it's what she says you ought to do
Last edited by Hydra150 at Apr 4, 2012,
#159
Quote by BadBanshee
Knew it. All talk.
He starts off the tune by playing both the melody and bass lines alternating to establish the chord changes in F major, a series of 2-5-1's. Around :11 seconds or so (there is no key change at :08), the music modulates half step up to F# major, repeating the same material. That's what's happening in just those few seconds. It's not random, and it's not esoteric.

What about you Hydra105, care to give it a go? I did.
So just because you merely attempted cancels out the possibility that you don't understand it?

...modes and scales are still useless.


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Last edited by Xiaoxi at Apr 4, 2012,
#160
Quote by Hydra150
Nope, Im not a theory genius like Xiaoxi and I'm not well versed in playing jazz (not much more than a beginner in the style), although I do enjoy listening to it.

edit: Ive got a black ibanez - do I get so macaroni too?


I've got a black Ibanez too lol but I guess you already know that.

What percentage of UG's users do you reckon have black metal style guitars despite the genre they play in?
"Which road do I take"? she asked.
"Where do you want to go?" was his response.
"I don't know", Alice answered.
"Then", said the cat,
"it doesn't matter.”