#1
Hey guys,

my JVM410 needs some new pre-amp tubes and i don't have much experience with them.

ATM it has a JJ 12AX7 in V1 (just put it in the other day as it was kicking around) and stock Marshall's in the other 4.

I play mostly hard rock and metal but i need to have versatility.

My budget is about £60-80

I have heard that the Shuguangs are great for high gain but are lacking in a good clean tone. I've been using JJs in my JCM800 for a few years now but i wanna explore some other options.

Any advice would be welcome.

i can post a block diagram with gain stages if that helps.
My Rig:
Maverick F-1, Ibanez RG1527, Schecter Omen 8
Marshall JVM 410H,
Hand built 4x12 w/ V30s
Current board:
PXL LIVE
TU2
WHAMMY IV
MXR M132
MXR M101
TIMMY
NS2
MXR M108
XOTIC EP
TC DREAMSCAPE
DL8
Last edited by loki_lulamen at Apr 1, 2012,
#2
JJs are great in Marshalls, and 9th-gen Shuguangs are good too. I have a set of Shuguang EL34s in my Splawn. I have a set of their 12ax7s, but I haven't really messed with them, so I can't say much about their preamp tubes, but everything I've heard says they're quality tubes. Another option you could try is Tung-Sol. They're a bit brighter than JJs. JJ builds a better and more reliable tube overall, but Tung-Sols are still decent, and are something different you could try.

One other thing you can try, if you have some cash left over, is see if you can find a JAN Philips 5751 and put it in V1. Those things do wonders for clarity and tone quality. They're more expensive than new tubes, but I think it would still be worth it if you have the money.
Ibanez UV777 - Carvin TL60 & 727 - Jackson KE3
Splawn QuickRod - Mesa Stiletto & RoadKing - Peavey Ultra+ - Peavey Bandit
Some pedlulz & cabz


7 String Legion
#3
Awesome. Just had a look for the JAN and found them for a reasonable price. The Tung-Sols sound interesting, how are the clean tones?
Thanks dude.
My Rig:
Maverick F-1, Ibanez RG1527, Schecter Omen 8
Marshall JVM 410H,
Hand built 4x12 w/ V30s
Current board:
PXL LIVE
TU2
WHAMMY IV
MXR M132
MXR M101
TIMMY
NS2
MXR M108
XOTIC EP
TC DREAMSCAPE
DL8
Last edited by loki_lulamen at Apr 1, 2012,
#4
Tung Sols and EHX tubes are made in the same factory. JJs are recommended quite a bit for Marshalls and they probably build the best tube right now. Try sticking a JAN 5751 or a green label GE 5751 in V1 and JJs everywhere else. You might try a JJ 803S (long plate) in V5, or wherever you phase inverter is.
Endorsed by Dean Guitars 07-10
2003 Gibson Flying V w/ Moon Inlay
2006 Fender All-American Partscaster
SVK ELP-C500 Custom

1964 Fender Vibro Champ
1989 Peavey VTM60

[thread="1166208"]Gibsons Historic Designs[/thread]
#5
^^ I've only tried the Tung-Sols in my Splawn QuickRod (hot-rodded Marshall copy) so I can only say how they sounded in that amp. For the OD channel, they were bright, articulate, but not harsh. They didn't seem to do as well in the clean channel. It's been a while since they were in use, but I remember my clean channel was usable, but not spectacular. I noticed a huge improvement when I put a 12at7 in the clean gain stage.

Tung-Sols are certainly usable for clean, and your amp may jive with them better to your ears than mine, but there are better sounding tubes out there. I'd do like Flux'd recommends, and put a 5751 in V1 once you can grab one. That slot is probably your first gain stage (post that gain stage diagram if you can), and it'll affect both clean and overdrive channels. If you want to try Tung-Sols, I'd try one in the middle slots, as these are probably the OD gain stages. You could try them in V1 too, but I'd start in the middle. Just experiment and see what you like.
Ibanez UV777 - Carvin TL60 & 727 - Jackson KE3
Splawn QuickRod - Mesa Stiletto & RoadKing - Peavey Ultra+ - Peavey Bandit
Some pedlulz & cabz


7 String Legion
#6
I have ecc802s's in two of my amps. I've been asking
around bout the JAN Phillips 5751, hopefully I'll come across 1 or 2. I like low gain though, wouldnt metal players want all 12ax7s?
#7
Not necessarily. Usually 5751s have about 70% of a 12ax7's gain, but using only one 5751 in a preamp full of 12ax7s may only reduce the saturation as much as turning the gain knob down 1/2 a click. The difference is in the tone and noise floor, I find. A high gain tone can be made clearer and more articulate with a 5751, and the noise floor will be lowered as well. I have a Peavey Ultra, and I swapped all 4 12ax7s out for 5751s, and I had to turn my gain up just one notch or so to get the same saturation as the ax7s. However, as I said, I found the tone to be less fizzy, tighter, and much less noisy. Not only that, but the clean channel, which was pretty bland with a JJ 12ax7, became cleaner and livelier as well.

All that to say, 5751s can do quite well for high-gain metal applications.

EDIT: \/ Double teamed!
Ibanez UV777 - Carvin TL60 & 727 - Jackson KE3
Splawn QuickRod - Mesa Stiletto & RoadKing - Peavey Ultra+ - Peavey Bandit
Some pedlulz & cabz


7 String Legion
Last edited by BCKRedBaron at Apr 1, 2012,
#8
^Oh yeah!

Not necessarily, the reduction in gain is pretty insignificant. 5751's sound like a mature 12ax7 if that makes sense. They're more articulate and clear. I run a JG 5751 in my Jet City and it still has PLENTY gain for modern metal.
Endorsed by Dean Guitars 07-10
2003 Gibson Flying V w/ Moon Inlay
2006 Fender All-American Partscaster
SVK ELP-C500 Custom

1964 Fender Vibro Champ
1989 Peavey VTM60

[thread="1166208"]Gibsons Historic Designs[/thread]
Last edited by Flux'D at Apr 1, 2012,
#9
here is that block diagram

(Jesus thats huge!! ill try and find a smaller one)

by the looks of it both V1 and V2 are gonna affect the gain in all the channels. but am i right with V1 affecting the tone more?.

i think im gonna try a 5751 in V1 and a Tung-Sol in V2 as i like a bright tone.

as for V3 and V4 im guessing the tubes aren't gonna make much difference.

So what about the phase inverter V5? How much difference will a good tube make here?


Oh and if its any help; i use Orange on the clean, Green on the Crunch, Orange on OD1(my main channel) and Red on OD2.
My Rig:
Maverick F-1, Ibanez RG1527, Schecter Omen 8
Marshall JVM 410H,
Hand built 4x12 w/ V30s
Current board:
PXL LIVE
TU2
WHAMMY IV
MXR M132
MXR M101
TIMMY
NS2
MXR M108
XOTIC EP
TC DREAMSCAPE
DL8
Last edited by loki_lulamen at Apr 1, 2012,
#10
Sweet, thanks for that diagram.

From the looks of it, yes, V1 will directly affect the tone of all of your channels. It will have the biggest effect. V2 also is included in all of the various channels/stages, so it will have an effect as well, though less than V1. It looks like V3 is your tone controls. It's a cathode follower, apparently, so from what all I've read you should avoid putting a Tung-Sol in that spot, as they tend to fry in cathode followers. V4 is your loop return and reverb, so it won't directly affect your tone. V5 is of course the phase inverter. It will affect the overall tone as well, so a good tube will be in order here.

I'd say you're good to go with the setup you proposed: a 5751 in V1 and a Tung-Sol in V2. I would stick with JJs everywhere else. They're reliable and just good tubes overall. But if you find your tone gets too bright or ice-picky, it'll probably be that Tung-Sol, so just experiment with different combos.
Ibanez UV777 - Carvin TL60 & 727 - Jackson KE3
Splawn QuickRod - Mesa Stiletto & RoadKing - Peavey Ultra+ - Peavey Bandit
Some pedlulz & cabz


7 String Legion
#11
First. The 5751. The JAN Phillips is a true military grade tube. On paper they have 70% of the gain of a 12AX7 - but ........ when we are talking about a real US military tube against normal churned out modern 12AX7 it's really closer to 90%.

My rec:
V1: JJ ECC803 or JAN 5751
V2: JJ ECC83S
V3: JJ ECC803
V4: JJ ECC803
V5: JJ ECC803 or JAN 5751

Unless you want to go NOS then stick British Mullards everywhere if you can.
The JJ ECC803 is a low noise, long plate tube with a little more sparkle than an ECC83S.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#12
^ Listen to this man. He knows Marshalls inside and out.

Save up for those Mullards if you can!
Ibanez UV777 - Carvin TL60 & 727 - Jackson KE3
Splawn QuickRod - Mesa Stiletto & RoadKing - Peavey Ultra+ - Peavey Bandit
Some pedlulz & cabz


7 String Legion
#13
Awesome!!

Thank you very much guys!
My Rig:
Maverick F-1, Ibanez RG1527, Schecter Omen 8
Marshall JVM 410H,
Hand built 4x12 w/ V30s
Current board:
PXL LIVE
TU2
WHAMMY IV
MXR M132
MXR M101
TIMMY
NS2
MXR M108
XOTIC EP
TC DREAMSCAPE
DL8
#14
Are NOS Mullards really worth it? A shop near me has them but they're extremely expensive
#15
That was a real "how long is a piece of string?" question. Are they really worth what? "Extremely expensive" isn't actually a quantitative measure.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#16
My bad, I forget the exact price, I wanna say they were $150. Well over 10x the cost of a jj, I assumed the price difference would be like that everywhere. Is there 10x the tone and life?
#17
That's bit over the top. On average they will last about 10x longer or more and sound better doing it but at $150 they'd want to be pretty special. I get most of my old tubes off Ebay. You get the occasional dud but I don't pay more than $20. They last so long that as long as they aren't microphonic already they'll probably still outlast a JJ x several times. So the odd dud isn't such a big deal. You can just do it one tube at a time until you're happy.
Beware of Telefunkens on ebay - lots of fakes. They are the best and most expensive of tubes so that's the target of counterfeiters. They take recent Ei tubes and rebadge them, even stamp a diamond into the base.
Keep your eyes open for Amperex too, often labelled Bugle Boy. Brimar, Phillips, Tungsram (a Hungarian Mullard), Tesla, RCA, lots of others. Old stuff from back in the day when the military were soaking them up by the squillions.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#18
Let me add a recommendation for RCA black plates. Got my hands on a pair last week, and they are niiice. I demo'd them in my Splawn when I got em and just left one in right off the bat. The other quickly went into my Stiletto too.

On Telefunkens, if the label is pretty well rubbed off or barely visible, that's a point in favor of them being genuine. If you have a chance to see one first-hand before you buy and you give the label a little rub and it starts to come off, that's definitely a good sign. At least I would imagine that to be harder to fake (Cath could you weigh in on this?).
Ibanez UV777 - Carvin TL60 & 727 - Jackson KE3
Splawn QuickRod - Mesa Stiletto & RoadKing - Peavey Ultra+ - Peavey Bandit
Some pedlulz & cabz


7 String Legion
Last edited by BCKRedBaron at Apr 3, 2012,
#19
Correct. The labelling on the fakes is too resilient. On the originals it wiped off if you looked at it too hard.
On the fakes some even go to the trouble of using a hot stamp to melt a diamond into the base. It's recessed instead of embossed but you can't see that in a photo.
But rule of thumb - if the labelling is perfect be suspicious, very suspicious.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band