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#1
I was wondering - it's clear from what I've read that these Joyo pedals are great and for example the Ultimate Overdrive is a clone of the OCD Fulltone.

However do people think it's in any way unethical to just copy a pedal and offer it at a knockdown price as it's not breaking the law to duplicate the insides? It's one thing to do it yourself for your own purposes but to put it on the market does anyone feel uncomfortable with that?

It's clear that many boutique pedals are overpriced however at least they developed that tech themselves.

What are people's thoughts?
#2
Ethical is a matter of personal education, preference, etc... That said I do not care, if something I like/need is well made and within my reach I'll buy it.

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#3
Not when the base of the boutique market is clones. "Cloning" goes on everyday in the consumer electronics industry. Nobody bitches about it because they're too busy innovating and pumping out new products to be concerned about someone copying last year's tech. For some strange reason, most boutique builders think they're above having to keep up with the market, even when they're line is based on somebody else's.
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#5
Well I heard that Freekish Blues actually took Joyo's Ultimate Drive circuit bumped the price and called it their Alpha Drive.
#7
Joyo is pretty much evil.
"If you're looking for me,
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#8
most of the pedals are clones of each other joyo is cheap and it works i have no problem with it not like they use baby blood to baptize their pedals(if they did and it still cost the same id probaaly buy it just for that)
#9
I think when it comes to "ethics" and "joyo" the whole Alpha Drive scandal comes to mind before you can feel bad for buying Joyo's stuff! =P

Personally I don't think it's un-ethical.

If cloning was unethical we wouldn't have many of the great companies we have today. If I'm right Marshall's first amp was based heavily off a Fender Bassman.

Most pedals out there are clones too, it's just the small price that makes Joyo stick out.

Personally I'd be fine with buying one, cos I know that if I get the money, I'd probably put the joyo aside for the real deal...partially cos you have a lot more swag when you have a real Phase 90 on the floor as opposed to a Joyo copy! ^.^
#10
Mesa's first amp was a modified fender too .

Mesa Royal Atlantic
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#11
I think it's a relative thing based on how the original designer or company treats the pedal community. I don't think about it to much in terms of ownership of a design. When a builder is good to the people and keeps bringing good things to the people, we should try to make sure they make good profits by not selling clones, when it's a large enough company that cloning isn't going to take a huge market share away from them or the builder is charging some ridiculous price (I'd have no problem buying any zvex clone) for the level of innovation he/she introduces, I say clones are fine.

No set moral rule, I just assess what will be best for pedal builders and enthusiasts as a whole IMO, and make the individual decision based on that. There are builders who's design I'd never build for any reason other than my own enjoyment and there those whose design I'm willing to steal and sell some cheap pedals to folks that want them. I would have a moral qualm with doing that under false pretenses. I"m not going to take credit for someone else's work even if I'm taking their design.

And if it's out of production, it's instantly up for grabs in my book--don't deny pedal nerds their cool circuits!!
#12
There is a reason why it's so hard to patent electronic circuits - issuing them restricts the development of the science. If it were unethical to use other people's electrical designs pretty much every electronic device in your home is unethical. The field is intimately dependent on the sharing of ideas.
The idea of intellectual property has been taken way too far by greedy ****s that would happily gather patents and copyrights before them and monopolise everything within their grasp.
Joyo have done nothing that isn't acceptable practice within their field, therefore it is in no way unethical. If they advertised them as "all original designs" it would be unethical but they don't so it isn't.
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#13
I'm about to get the AC tone. can't wait!
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#14
I can't wait to get my JCM800!

It's not going to be a Marshall :p
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#16
We'd have nothing if everyone thought like this. Most "boutique" pedals are pedals that are based off clones.
#17
Quote by Nirvana_RATM2
We'd have nothing if everyone thought like this. Most "boutique" pedals are pedals that are based off clones.

Correct. We'd all still be living in caves bashing rocks together to start fires. But wait!! Oh no! George discovered how to do that so we can't do that either.
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Boss GT-100


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My band
#18
I don't see why this is even a question. Ethics are all up to you, if you don't like where they're built, who makes them, or the quality then don't buy them. If they sound just as good and you don't mind all that other stuff then there's nothing immoral about it when you consider how almost every other pedal is a clone of something else.
#19
I thought the Maxon 808 was a clone of Ibanez' well known Tubescreamers.

I also thought people generally liked the Maxon 808 better.

So in that sense, who cares.
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#20
Quote by mmolteratx
Not when the base of the boutique market is clones.


+ infinity

heck almost the entire pedal market is based on clones

i don't see how it's suddenly unethical when someone comes up with reasonable quality, cheap ones.

heck if anything it's unethical that all the other ones are so dear. and often they're the ones which are pretending they're reinventing the wheel, too. at least joyo is reasonably upfront about what it's cloning. I fail to see how that's "less" ethical, if you ask me it's more so.

Quote by Cathbard
There is a reason why it's so hard to patent electronic circuits - issuing them restricts the development of the science. If it were unethical to use other people's electrical designs pretty much every electronic device in your home is unethical. The field is intimately dependent on the sharing of ideas.
The idea of intellectual property has been taken way too far by greedy ****s that would happily gather patents and copyrights before them and monopolise everything within their grasp.
Joyo have done nothing that isn't acceptable practice within their field, therefore it is in no way unethical. If they advertised them as "all original designs" it would be unethical but they don't so it isn't.


+1
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

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Et tu, br00tz?
Last edited by Dave_Mc at Apr 10, 2012,
#21
Quote by Nirvana_RATM2
We'd have nothing if everyone thought like this. Most "boutique" pedals are pedals that are based off clones.


+1. Swapping some parts in a Muff or Tube Screamer circuit does not make you an electronics guru. Neither does rebuilding a tube amp circuit to operate at line voltage with transistors.
#22
Circuits themselves are not copyrighted. Names, logos and artwork (including PCB layouts) can be trademarked and copyrighted. Circuits can be patented although the vast majority of guitar effects do not utilize patented circuits - and patents expire
#23
Quote by Cathbard
There is a reason why it's so hard to patent electronic circuits - issuing them restricts the development of the science. If it were unethical to use other people's electrical designs pretty much every electronic device in your home is unethical. The field is intimately dependent on the sharing of ideas.

You can generally patent a circuit if it's new and not obvious over what has been done before it. The basic designs for guitar effects have been around for a while and as mentioned, patents expire (after about 20 years in the US). Changing out resistors or capacitors of an existing circuit is more of a design choice than adding anything new to it that could be patented.
#24
It's the same ethics of Joyo that got brands like Marshall, Fender and Mesa Boogie started.
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#25
Quote by Into Exile
I thought the Maxon 808 was a clone of Ibanez' well known Tubescreamers.

I also thought people generally liked the Maxon 808 better.

So in that sense, who cares.


the original Ibanez pedals were made by Maxoon. Ibanez was just the brand name they were sold under.
#26
Right now Min is trying to clone Natalie Portman.

so is joyo unethical?

i think not.
#27
I have no problems with clones untill they try to pass it up as the real thing (chinese gibsons coughcough) but other than that if its reasonably priced and reliable Id buy it
#28
Quote by Seanthesheep
I have no problems with clones untill they try to pass it up as the real thing (chinese gibsons coughcough)


That's not a clone, thats a counterfeit.
#29
90% of every piece of gear on the market today is a clone of something.
Boutique amps are based on hotrodded Marshalls and Fenders, mostly.
Overdrive pedals are usually based on either modded Boss DS-1 or Ibanez/Maxon Tubescreamers.
It's also pretty hard to find a wah that doesn't get its inspiration from the dunlop crybaby (modded) or Vox Clyde McCoy wah.
I could go on listing every single type of gear and its usual inspiration, but I think that's a bit boring.

It's when the makers try to pass it off as their original inspiration that things get unethical. However, those cases are no longer considered "clones", and are instead called "counterfeits".
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#30
Both Marshall's and Mesa's first amps were Fender clones. Companies such as Ibanez and ESP made a name for themselves by selling copies of other guitars. Most pieces of music gear out there is a clone in one way or another, so why does it matter if you're buying a cloned pedal? In the end they're both a bunch of similar parts that attempt to do the same thing.
I pride myself on my humility.
#31
Quote by Seanthesheep
I have no problems with clones untill they try to pass it up as the real thing (chinese gibsons coughcough) but other than that if its reasonably priced and reliable Id buy it


+1

that's where i draw the line, too. I have no time for counterfeit stuff, but there's a bit difference between cloning something and putting your own name on it, and counterfeiting.

Quote by PsiGuy60

It's when the makers try to pass it off as their original inspiration that things get unethical. However, those cases are no longer considered "clones", and are instead called "counterfeits".


or boutique
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#32
I recently saw a thread somewhere that some company was actually taking the Joyo clones, repackaging them and selling them for double the price
#33
a couple of companies have been up to that
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#34
I only have a problem with "clones" if they blatantly try and copy the pedal styling/visuals/name in order to piggyback off the success of the original company.

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#35
Quote by teleman97
Well I heard that Freekish Blues actually took Joyo's Ultimate Drive circuit bumped the price and called it their Alpha Drive.


Yah, id rather support some poverty stricken kids in china than some fat lazy ass bell that attatches a couple of resistors to a circuit that was made 300 years ago at 1/10000th of the cost theyre selling for. Not just Freekish Blues... Ahem.

Hillarious how everyone was in love with it too, just goes to show, £3 of components can make a pretty awesome sounding pedal.

Every pedal made today is a clone of a tubescreamer/fuzz face/rangemaster.
#36
Quote by power freak
I only have a problem with "clones" if they blatantly try and copy the pedal styling/visuals/name in order to piggyback off the success of the original company.



agreed, although it's a fine line between that and them being secretive about what it is, which i also don't like.

let me know it's a tubescreamer clone but don't call it a tubescreamer, kind of thing. that'd be the way i'd want it.
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#37
Quote by Dave_Mc
agreed, although it's a fine line between that and them being secretive about what it is, which i also don't like.

let me know it's a tubescreamer clone but don't call it a tubescreamer, kind of thing. that'd be the way i'd want it.

These days it's easier to assume something is a tubescreamer clone until proven otherwise.
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#38
Quote by beckyjc
Yah, id rather support some poverty stricken kids in china than some fat lazy ass bell that attatches a couple of resistors to a circuit that was made 300 years ago at 1/10000th of the cost theyre selling for. Not just Freekish Blues... Ahem.

Hillarious how everyone was in love with it too, just goes to show, £3 of components can make a pretty awesome sounding pedal.

Every pedal made today is a clone of a tubescreamer/fuzz face/rangemaster.


contrary to popular belief the kids in china aren't working in the factories. the chinese are very big on education. as i've mentioned many times my brother lives and works in china and has dispeled many of the myths held by many westerners. granted they don't get paid a lot but it's more than you think plus the cost of living is much lower.
#39
Quote by monwobobbo
contrary to popular belief the kids in china aren't working in the factories. the chinese are very big on education. as i've mentioned many times my brother lives and works in china and has dispeled many of the myths held by many westerners. granted they don't get paid a lot but it's more than you think plus the cost of living is much lower.


I was exaggerating for emphasis.

I saw a video documenting what goes on in the behringer factory, conditions looked pretty good tbh. Id work there.
#40
Quote by beckyjc
I was exaggerating for emphasis.

I saw a video documenting what goes on in the behringer factory, conditions looked pretty good tbh. Id work there.


that's cool. my brother has been to the epiphone factory and another one but i don't remember which one. he said the same thing. he also does contract work for many chinese companies and has said they've come a long way from the stereotype that most of us have. they aren't up to western standards in many ways but are progressing.
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