#1
Hi all,

So I've been thinking about the harmonic minor scale. What I'm wondering is, what if you took that scale (1--2--b3--4--5--b6--7), but gave it a MAJOR third?

Thanks,

Legs
#3
Quote by chronowarp
then it'd be Harmonic major!

(no joke).


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#6
Quote by Legsilver
Hi all,

So I've been thinking about the harmonic minor scale. What I'm wondering is, what if you took that scale (1--2--b3--4--5--b6--7), but gave it a MAJOR third?

Thanks,

Legs

It would say, "Hey thanks, man. I fancied a change."

Cheers,

Arms
#7
Quote by mdc
It would say, "Hey thanks, man. I fancied a change."

Cheers,

Arms


And it would say "yes, that major 3rd accidental in the minor scale really did the trick!".

Well harmonic minor, but you get the deal.
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#8
Quote by AlanHB
And it would say "yes, that major 3rd accidental in the minor scale really did the trick!".

... and it said, "shit, there's V/iv coming in a sec. Ahhh!"
Well harmonic minor, but you get the deal.

I ain't in da mood to be picky no more!
#9
Quote by mdc
I ain't in da mood to be picky no more!


Let's just call it the superdratrionphy scale and be done with it yeah?
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#10
Quote by AlanHB
Let's just call it the superdratrionphy scale and be done with it yeah?

k.
#12
If the 7 was a b7, it would be the 5th mode of melodic minor (mixolydian b6). That is, if it was truly being used modally as the skeleton itself - if that 1 really is the root and the rest of the intervals remain consistent. If you're really using it modally - call it whatever you want. It's a major scale with a b6. I'd be tempted to call it ionian b6. TBH, I think that the augmented 2nd between the b6 and the 7 makes it awkward and non-pleasing to the ear to work with in this way.

Otherwise, it probably is used as a chromatic manuever in a key rather than as a scale; if the overall context is a major key and you happen to see a b6 occuring, it's having some chromatic function (such as being part of a minor iv chord). Extrapolating a scale from that in isolation from the broader context is misleading/erroneous.
Last edited by Brainpolice2 at Apr 12, 2012,
#13
Quote by Brainpolice2
If the 7 was a b7, it would be the 5th mode of melodic minor (mixolydian b6). That is, if it was truly being used modally as the skeleton itself - if that 1 really is the root and the rest of the intervals remain consistent. If you're really using it modally - call it whatever you want. It's a major scale with a b6. I'd be tempted to call it ionian b6. TBH, I think that the augmented 2nd between the b6 and the 7 makes it awkward and non-pleasing to the ear to work with in this way.

Otherwise, it probably is used as a chromatic manuever in a key rather than as a scale; if the overall context is a major key and you happen to see a b6 occuring, it's having some chromatic function (such as being part of a minor iv chord). Extrapolating a scale from that in isolation from the broader context is misleading/erroneous.


I'm not sure you could even use it modally dude! What mode would it fit into? I guess anything is possible, but you'd have some serious considerations to take care of, a use of an accidental can quite easily drag a song into a key rather than a mode by re-enforcing the pull to the tonal centre.

Otherwise I like "Extrapolating a scale from that in isolation from the broader context is misleading/erroneous".
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#15
Quote by Brainpolice2
You can use practically any scale-construct modally if you keep it static. It's just that some scale-constructs work better than others as modes I think.


I'm still unsure, can you give a chord progression where you could use the above modally? Or even a recorded demo would be better.

You can see my concern though yeah? The modes are prescribed, you're suggesting that they're not.
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#17
Quote by AlanHB
I'm still unsure, can you give a chord progression where you could use the above modally? Or even a recorded demo would be better.

You can see my concern though yeah? The modes are prescribed, you're suggesting that they're not.


By framing it in terms of a chord progression in the first place, you're imposing something onto the question that isn't necessary. It doesn't have to involve a chord progression - or any chords at all. Indeed, that (a lack of functional harmony) would contribute to setting it up to be modal. One could just make melodies with it and continually go back to a droning root note.

I'm not sure in what sense you think "the modes are prescribed". I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that.

I think we're digressing this thread a bit.
#18
^^^ I'm cool with digressing. So even the scale used by itself, it would be in which mode?
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#19
So even the scale used by itself, it would be in which mode?


The question is incoherant to me due to what seem to be assumptions I don't share. My answer is that the scale would *be* the mode. A mode is just a kind of scale, really - but what makes it "modal" is how it's used (I.E. as its own skeleton for a piece of music, without regard for conventions of tonality, without resolving to a relative major or minor).

Modes are defined by their own intervalic content (for example, Lydian's essential note is the #4), and they are being used modally when that intervalic content remains consistent, with the root reoccuring throughout *as the root* (I.E. it is not being used contextually relative to the major or minor scale), and nothing we could call functional tonal harmony being implied.

Do you have some notion that "the modes" can only refer to the typical list of "modes" that derive from the major scale? Is that what you meant by the modes being "prescribed"? Because I don't see why excluding the modes of harmonic and melodic minor, or other things, wouldn't just be an arbitrary decision. We're talking conventions at that point. There's nothing intrinsically valuable about the major scale. It does not *have* to be our fundamental point of reference at all times.
Last edited by Brainpolice2 at Apr 12, 2012,
#20
Quote by Brainpolice2
Do you have some notion that "the modes" can only refer to the typical list of "modes" that derive from the major scale?


Well no, keys were developed after modes, so I don't seek to refer to them as if they were derived umm "backwards".

I'm just clarifying, so you believe that the scale without any context would exist in the "harmonic minor mode"?

It would cause a problem then applying it, as with the relevance of modes really decreasing, it would cause a pull to the tonal centre that I believe it would inevitably be found to be in the minor key. Indeed quite often we derive chords from the "harmonic minor" and this is widely accepted to be still within the minor key.

But I'm still open to suggestions, I think the viewpoint you're putting forward is really interesting. I do however suspect that it "may" be more arguable from a more non-western music theory standpoint.

Edit: However if you're simply referring to "mode" as a scale, merely a set of notes that infer no harmonic context to speak of, rather than the traditional "modal" application, I'll just cease my inquiry
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#21
This the third time I'm posting this today.




OT - It's a harmonic major scale.
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#22
Ah look it's the b6 in a major key; moll-dur

Used it many times, like it very much. Gives a sense of adventure.. to me anyways.

You can't view it as a derivative of Harmonic minor or w/e.

There's a certain aural "hierarchy" in notes, and major triad trumps minor triad with no context given.

..and so you should view it as a major scale/key with a b6.

When played in a major key, it's like an artificial leading tone to the 5th.

When played in a minor key, it's just a minor 6th, and the major third would be more of a #9 kind of thing.

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Apr 13, 2012,