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EmilGD
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#121
The other guy, as in myself?

EDIT: 5 skips in this one afaik, might have been a bit to strict with thpse
Last edited by EmilGD at Jul 30, 2012,
AeolianWolf
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#122
Quote by EmilGD
Done with my new 3rd species, is this one better? I feel the first beat 1s makes the voices a bit less distinct, but especially that 2nd measure is hard IMO. Measure 6 is also kinda questionable. http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/146e98e09280ce8111f621a37a78d6fdf1f7b1f2

Also, I might have misunderstood the compass to begin with. I took it for being D-D or A-A, but is it maybe the current C.F. note? If so, that may explain why I often feel quite limited in my options


So many holes in my understanding/knowledge of theory...


to start off, you have parallel octaves on the strong beats of measures 1 and 2. i suppose i should have cleared up that it still applies on the first beat of each measure.

and keep in mind that F to B is not a b5.

other than that, i don't see much else. the overall composition of it has gotten better.
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Mister A.J.
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#123
I am crossing my fingers and praying I got the 2nd species right on the first try. It appears to be fine to me, but that could be a bad thing.

http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/3defee8a4d2ee315305993d9409701d780ffa42e

I'm beginning to think that it's FUBAR.
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Last edited by Mister A.J. at Jul 30, 2012,
jazz_rock_feel
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#124
I don't like how many perfect consonances you have, especially when you go P5-P8 a couple of times. You're last several measures have a D on the weak beat consistently which makes it extremely static. I also don't love mm. 5-6 where you have a significant leap and then continue in the same direction. Also, outlining triads in species is generally a no-no, so you should probably refigure your first measure.

General note to almost everyone: focus on melody. The biggest problem I'm noticing is that you're following all the rules, but you're melodies sound awful. Listen to your melody closely and if something doesn't jive, change it. More importantly, sing all of your melodies so that you can be sure that it's a nice easy singable tune. If it flows well off the voice, a lot of times it will be a good melody.
jazz_rock_feel
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#126
It sounds quite good actually. I really like the parallel 3rds in mm. 3 and 4. I find people fear parallels so much in species that they forget that parallel 6ths/10ths can sound really pleasing. Actually, could I recommend that you consider tying the first D into the next bar so that you have 3 parallel 3rds in a row.

The only thing I could comment on is that the octave in mm. 6 is a bit jarring because both voices have a pretty large leap leading into it, so you're really emphasizing that stationary interval.
EmilGD
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#127
Quote by AeolianWolf

and keep in mind that F to B is not a b5.

What would be the best way to note it? #4? +4? Other?
AeolianWolf
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#129
#4, but we're not using nashville notation. intervals are notated with a M for major, m for minor, A for augmented, d for diminished. so for example, M3, m3, A4, d5.

in first and second species i added the quality of the interval to make it a little easier to see - but the quality of the interval doesn't really have much bearing in third species so i just labeled the quantity. you can do the same here - no need to include the quality (at least not for my behalf; if it helps you in some way then i encourage you to write it).
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EmilGD
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#130
Good answers, thanks. Will probably give 3rd species another try the next couple of days, and put a bit more time and thought into it.
TheHydra
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#131
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
If it's approached and left by step, then anything goes.

I thought tritones were completely banned in all species.
AeolianWolf
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#132
Quote by TheHydra
I thought tritones were completely banned in all species.


this isn't the catholic church. hell, i'm an atheist (though i do play a church from time to time).

they're allowed as passing dissonances.
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TheHydra
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#133
Ah, sorry. I just figured that since this practice is so deeply rooted in tradition, we'd be adhering to the "no tritone" rule that always seems to be brought up in music of this style. You said tritones are allowed as passing dissonances, does that include using it as a neighbor?
AeolianWolf
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#134
Quote by TheHydra
Ah, sorry. I just figured that since this practice is so deeply rooted in tradition, we'd be adhering to the "no tritone" rule that always seems to be brought up in music of this style. You said tritones are allowed as passing dissonances, does that include using it as a neighbor?


it's permitted, but i think you won't find the sound too pleasing.
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jazz_rock_feel
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#135
Quote by TheHydra
Ah, sorry. I just figured that since this practice is so deeply rooted in tradition, we'd be adhering to the "no tritone" rule that always seems to be brought up in music of this style. You said tritones are allowed as passing dissonances, does that include using it as a neighbor?

Species is trying to cop the style of Palestrina, by that point in time passing tritones were extremely commonplace and acceptable because they were treated appropriately.

Neighbour dissonances, especially upper neighbour, are generally not as good as passing dissonance.
Mister A.J.
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#136
Okay... I took some time off, and I came back to first species, and I think I did better than my first few attempts.


http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/81d79e6360d7c47b2a97eb4e0f4be1feeb6f1554

The one thing I can see that could be a problem is the huge leap into the P12 at 5.
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jazz_rock_feel
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#137
Technically, there's nothing wrong with it, but on a qualitative level I see a glaring problem (in my opinion). Look at your first five bars as a group and then your last six bars as a group and what do you notice about your melody?
Mister A.J.
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#138
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
Technically, there's nothing wrong with it, but on a qualitative level I see a glaring problem (in my opinion). Look at your first five bars as a group and then your last six bars as a group and what do you notice about your melody?

... They're almost exactly reversed. I feel pretty stupid now.

I also mislabeled the P1 in the first bar.
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Last edited by Mister A.J. at Aug 29, 2012,
Mister A.J.
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#140
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
Yeah exactly, but more importantly, the contour of your line is like this: / \ You should definitely aim to have more changes in direction.

Ah, I definitely see what you're saying. Thanks for the help Mr. jazz!
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ccannon1
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#141
sorry for the necrobump, but I tried my hand at these species tonight (it's 2:52 AM as I finish the 3rd species), and hope you guys don't mind checking them over.

1st - http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/51439d1c3ac46636cf1f13d9c0877ffcdec7923b

2nd - http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/9d6c2cc2405447203029ca277d1fbcad4f0b73b9

3rd - http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/0d1f19c91437dd50314f10e09feea32a009d5abc

note that I was too tired to be able to really count without confusing myself throughout the 3rd species haha
descara
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#142
Quote by ccannon1
sorry for the necrobump, but I tried my hand at these species tonight (it's 2:52 AM as I finish the 3rd species), and hope you guys don't mind checking them over.

1st - http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/51439d1c3ac46636cf1f13d9c0877ffcdec7923b

2nd - http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/9d6c2cc2405447203029ca277d1fbcad4f0b73b9

3rd - http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/0d1f19c91437dd50314f10e09feea32a009d5abc

note that I was too tired to be able to really count without confusing myself throughout the 3rd species haha


1st species:

Hidden 5th in bars 4 to 5, avoid this in 2-part exercises and between the outer voices when dealing with more voices. Bar 9, P5 is actually tritone - I'd suggest writing in G-clef and bass clef if you're unused to the other clefs, no point in making it harder for yourself at this stage. The bass, while having a clear low-point, is somewhat lacking in contour.

2nd species:

Very "skippy" counterpoint, try to use more stepwise motion, even in half notes. Bars 4-6, very clearly outlined tritones (F-A-B, B-E-F). Bar 7, forbidden dissonances - anticipations are not allowed in 2nd species, and to my memory very rare overall in renaissance polyphony. Also, while most textbooks allow passing tone dissonances in 2nd species, keep in mind that this is a practice to make you familiar with the dissonances, and dissonances in half notes is very uncommon in the actual music. Bar 9-10, chromatic motion, forbidden.

3rd species:

Bit of a mess. You skip into a dissonance in bar 2, the E in the bass, out of a dissonance in bars 5-6 (the D in the bass is dissonant and should move stepwise up). Bar 7 you kinda messed up, you missed a number (13 12 11 10, not 13, 11, 10, 9), so the E is actually dissonant. In bar 8, the 3rd interval is a 4th, dissonant. Bar 9, both a very outline tritone (F-D-B), and actual tritone between the voices (F-B), also, anticipation (the C). Bar 10, the C-A-B-C# feels very untypical of Palestrina-style vocal music, also the B is dissonant. Overall, the skips in the counterpoint feel rather unnatural - try to have stepwise motion over the barlines.

Hope that helps somewhat, mostly just had time to find the errors and gotta go now, ask away if you have questions.
jazz_rock_feel
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#143
Quote by ccannon1
sorry for the necrobump, but I tried my hand at these species tonight (it's 2:52 AM as I finish the 3rd species), and hope you guys don't mind checking them over.

1st - http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/51439d1c3ac46636cf1f13d9c0877ffcdec7923b

2nd - http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/9d6c2cc2405447203029ca277d1fbcad4f0b73b9

3rd - http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/0d1f19c91437dd50314f10e09feea32a009d5abc

note that I was too tired to be able to really count without confusing myself throughout the 3rd species haha


1st - As the guy above mentioned, there's a tritone and a hidden fifth. Beyond that your melody in measure 6-8 outlines a seventh, which is poor. Other than that, everything is fine technically speaking as far as I can tell. Your melody kind of sucks though and I'll tell you why. First off, you have two points where you leap and then continue in the same direction and that's a weaker gesture than coming back into the leap by step. Also, if you take out measures 6 and 7, look at your melody... It's just kind of meandering inside of that third or fourth interval and doesn't go anywhere. Think horizontally, think about direction.

2nd - Descara nailed it, you have way too many leaps. Again, think melodically and about direction, sing your lines. Leaps are fine as long as they're within reason (remember, it's always stronger to reverse direction in stepwise motion after a leap).

3rd - I'd just try that one again with what you've now (hopefully) learnt about first and second. 3rd species is the hardest, so I don't blame you, I blame Fux.
AETHERA
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#144
Hooray for continuing valid and studious necrobumps!


As a matter of policy, if we are looking for critique/response on contrapuntal work that isn't species (read: inventions, fugues, canons, otherwise contrapuntally-concerned materials), should that go in the composition feedback and criticism sticky or somewhere else?
You might could use some double modals.
Hail
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#145
just post a question you pussy

we need more non-modes non-adbot threads
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Xiaoxi
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#146
Quote by AETHERA
inventions, fugues, canons, otherwise contrapuntally-concerned materials

now that's way more interesting. post em here

if you wanna get really indepth make a separate thread

...modes and scales are still useless.


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Last edited by Xiaoxi at Jan 6, 2013,
descara
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#148
Quote by ccannon1
I'm really struggling with the direction of melody, what is the correct ideal shape for species? also, I redid my first species in C major http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/51439d1c3ac46636cf1f13d9c0877ffcdec7923b


A relatively smooth curve, with a high or low point at about 2/3 of the curves length (like the CF you used) - though having a too early high or low point is more of a problem than a late. Anyway, like this, more or less (high/low point respectively):



As for the one you posted, there's a hidden octave bars 4-5, the repeated notes make the counterpoint stagnate, and of course the curve is way off, no hard feelings. Also, expanding on what jazz rock said about leaps, most of the time you want downward movement preceeding an upward leap (in regards to bars 8-9), as upwards leaps take a lot of energy. Though this is no absolute rule, but it's a good way to build up energy before leaping.

Anyway, I'm not actually a hughe fan of species counterpoint, but we have to do a 3-part Kyrie Eleison for school, anyone care to take a look?
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0BxsT7xHZWU2mOWlxejBlZDZCQ2s

Aware of the tritone in bar 14, wanted to affirm G as the tonal center before starting to move back to D and didn't find any other solution. Plus, Palestrina does that once in a while.

edit: discovered the parallel 5th bar 7-8. Played around changing the bass far too many times
Last edited by descara at Jan 6, 2013,
ccannon1
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#151
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
A-D and G-C are 4ths, not 3rds.


god damn am I making myself look stupid
Mister A.J.
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#152
Quote by ccannon1
god damn am I making myself look stupid

Don't feel bad about it. You're not the first one in this thread. I beat you to that a few months back.


Just for the hell of it, 1st species. Maybe I've gotten better.
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Last edited by Mister A.J. at Jan 6, 2013,
descara
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#153
Quote by Mister A.J.
Don't feel bad about it. You're not the first one in this thread. I beat you to that a few months back.


Just for the hell of it, 1st species. Maybe I've gotten better.


First off - pertaining to the discussion above, your counterpoint has an extremely early high point, which makes the start the most interesting place. This in makes the rest rather boring, as the whole counterpoint is pretty much a de-escalation. Further, a fifth is an extremely large skip to start off with, you usually want to start with stepwise motion (which of course isn't possible with that CF) or smaller skips. Also, bar 9, tritone.
Mister A.J.
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#154
Quote by descara
First off - pertaining to the discussion above, your counterpoint has an extremely early high point, which makes the start the most interesting place. This in makes the rest rather boring, as the whole counterpoint is pretty much a de-escalation. Further, a fifth is an extremely large skip to start off with, you usually want to start with stepwise motion (which of course isn't possible with that CF) or smaller skips. Also, bar 9, tritone.

And I still look like an idiot. Not much changes in a month or two for me. :P
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AeolianWolf
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#156
Quote by ccannon1
Necrobump pt 2! I'm really determined to learn this.

I made my own cantus firmus in the bass clef.
http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/0f2a72923251cc59bdcbff3011b31c808f4a7bae


first things first -- use the cantus firmus that's been provided. the one in the alto clef. there are rules governing not only the composition of counterpoint, but the composition of cantus firmi. it should also be in the alto clef, which will fix your range problem -- first species counterpoint should be thought of as composition for two voices, and your range even hits two octaves apart at one point, and spends most of its time in 13ths. far too much space between the two voices.

you have a leap of a downward minor sixth in the bass between measures 3 and 4, which is forbidden.

the counterpoint to the cantus firmus should be a good melody in its own right, even if the cantus firmus were to be removed.

if you're really determined to learn this stuff, use the cantus firmus and regulations i provided in the first post of the thread and try again.
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