Page 2 of 4
#41
Xaoxi said:



This definitely flows better, thanks for the suggestions. I love you how you made the 4th measure go to the VII, and the winding inner voices on measure 5. You make a few moves in the bass that I'd be afraid to make, but they make perfect melodic sense.

Also be careful of the unprepared 6/4's from the bass, which happened too often


Noted. I felt pushed into those for some reason. Probably from too rigidly sticking to what I originally wrote in the bass - hence the only reason they are there is because they seemed to be forced by the line. Should have played around a little more to find something else.

I will say that there are times in which, in a way, I fell like I may be straight-jacketing myself in that when I leap by a 3rd, I'm scared to continue in the same directoin by anything but step (and once in a while, another 3rd leap) - which then closes me off to a more flexible bassline.

When I look at some of Bach's chorales, the bassline sometimes does what appears to be some rather funky things, and I don't completely have the intuition for how to write as freely as him.

My 2nd one (the Bb major one) was all-around more well-flowing, IMO. The one main rule-breaking and awkwardness I see is in what happens with the bass and tenor from the last beat of measure 4 to the first beat of measure 5 (the bass goes above where the tenor was, after a unison, and the tenor leaps up to make up for it).
Last edited by Brainpolice2 at Jul 22, 2012,
#43
Quote by EmilGD
My attempt at 2nd species: http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/a64c65827fecfe6ad30edb984353b06946add6e2

And I still wouldn't mind some feedback on the first I posted.

Also, how do you prevent (or remove) noteflight from making a new measure when you fill the last?


My criticism of the 2nd line would first focus on the first measure, where you go from the root to a flat 7 and then back up - and you repeat this twice, with the exact same notes constituting the 2nd measure, then you leap downwards from the 7th at the beginning of the 3rd measure.

The repetition itself makes it non-flowing, and since you're in a minor key, going "minor 7 to tonic" at the beginning makes it awkward as far as establishing the minor center. Generally, when there's a flat 7th (or a 7th in general), it moves downward by step.

The Cantus firmus (if that's yours) is much stronger this time.
Last edited by Brainpolice2 at Jul 22, 2012,
#45
Quote by Brainpolice2
You might want to unprivatize your score. The link says its unavailable.

Sorry about that. It's public now.
#46
Quote by TheHydra
Sorry about that. It's public now.


i should point out that the only time you're allowed to use a whole note in the counterpoint in 2nd species is in the last two measures, and its use in the penultimate measure is optional.

in the second measure and in the third to last measure, you leap out of a dissonance (the M2 and the P11). no good. take what you have and fix it up -- no need to redo the whole thing.

and E to D is a m7, not a M7, but that doesn't really matter here.

Emil - redo your first species. there are a lot of problems with it. firstly, use the cantus firmus we're using (the one you used for second species). try it again, using the regulations i set forth for first species.

in your second species, you have parallel fifths on two consecutive strong beats in measures 7 and 8. change that up.

Azhark, try it again using the fux cantus firmus.
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Last edited by AeolianWolf at Jul 23, 2012,
#47
Quote by AeolianWolf
i should point out that the only time you're allowed to use a whole note in the counterpoint in 2nd species is in the last two measures, and its use in the penultimate measure is optional.

in the second measure and in the third to last measure, you leap out of a dissonance (the M2 and the P11). no good. take what you have and fix it up -- no need to redo the whole thing.

and E to D is a m7, not a M7, but that doesn't really matter here.

Emil - redo your first species. there are a lot of problems with it. firstly, use the cantus firmus we're using (the one you used for second species). try it again, using the regulations i set forth for first species.

in your second species, you have parallel fifths on two consecutive strong beats in measures 7 and 8. change that up.

Azhark, try it again using the fux cantus firmus.

Alright, I think I fixed up all the issues. It actually sounds better and has more contrary motion now. Thanks!

http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/1441bfa03357ed47e1cf15d2f8e9f2c7b0b6c48f
Last edited by TheHydra at Jul 23, 2012,
#48
Quote by TheHydra
Alright, I think I fixed up all the issues. It actually sounds better and has more contrary motion now. Thanks!

http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/1441bfa03357ed47e1cf15d2f8e9f2c7b0b6c48f


it does sound better. couple things, though. check measure 5. be sure you note that you have a G in the cantus firmus, not an A. you'll need to change your counterpoint accordingly. and in measure 9, you have the offbeat labeled as a P11, but it's actually a m10.

if it WAS a P11, you wouldn't be able to jump into it as you did. thankfully, it's a tenth, and the counterpoint is effective. getting better!
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#49
Quote by AeolianWolf
it does sound better. couple things, though. check measure 5. be sure you note that you have a G in the cantus firmus, not an A. you'll need to change your counterpoint accordingly. and in measure 9, you have the offbeat labeled as a P11, but it's actually a m10.

if it WAS a P11, you wouldn't be able to jump into it as you did. thankfully, it's a tenth, and the counterpoint is effective. getting better!

Ah, thank you. Fixed again!

http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/1441bfa03357ed47e1cf15d2f8e9f2c7b0b6c48f

I feel like it's kind of aimless, though. Dorian counterpoint in general sounds odd to me so far.
#50
Quote by Brainpolice2

This definitely flows better, thanks for the suggestions. I love you how you made the 4th measure go to the VII, and the winding inner voices on measure 5. You make a few moves in the bass that I'd be afraid to make, but they make perfect melodic sense.

etc

I don't really think about the harmony...my only concern is the melodic lines. If they work well they will naturally produce the right harmony. That's why I say forget about the rules and intervals and isolated species studies. Just completely throw yourself in Bach's melodic language until it becomes your native language as well!

So rather than doing species, this thread inspired me to take something from one of the solo violin partitas and realize a single line movement into 3-part counterpoint. I'll post it up within a few days.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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Last edited by Xiaoxi at Jul 23, 2012,
#51
Quote by Xiaoxi
I don't really think about the harmony...my only concern is the melodic lines. If they work well they will naturally produce the right harmony. That's why I say forget about the rules and intervals and isolated species studies. Just completely throw yourself in Bach's melodic language until it becomes your native language as well!

With all that in mind, what would you look for when analyzing a Bach piece?
#52
Quote by TheHydra
With all that in mind, what would you look for when analyzing a Bach piece?

Well, the first thing you have to do is immerse yourself in his idioms and syntax. There are no shortcuts around this--you just have to listen to Bach obsessively until you become fluent in his style. Treat every single line with its own integrity. People often say Bach's music has an "inevitable" quality to it. That's because each part of the whole is beautiful, strong, and meaningful by itself. That's what makes the sum of all the parts so convincing and irrefutable.

You will notice that he is a very consistent person, and have lots of recurring tendencies in his music. These consistencies reveal all of the microscopic ways he takes care of counterpoint. Look both with a microscope and telescope when taking in his music.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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Last edited by Xiaoxi at Jul 23, 2012,
#53
Quote by Xiaoxi
Well, the first thing you have to do is immerse yourself in his idioms and syntax. There are no shortcuts around this--you just have to listen to Bach obsessively until you become fluent in his style.

Can do. I'm already in the process of this.

Quote by Xiaoxi
Treat every single line with its own integrity. People often say Bach's music has an "inevitable" quality to it. That's because each part of the whole is beautiful, strong, and meaningful by itself. That's what makes the sum of all the parts so convincing and irrefutable.

You will notice that he is a very consistent person, and have lots of recurring tendencies in his music. These consistencies reveal all of the microscopic ways he takes care of counterpoint. Look both with a microscope and telescope when taking in his music.

How long have you been studying Bach's music?
#54
Quote by TheHydra

How long have you been studying Bach's music?

About......8 years...loooooooooooooooool

Eh kinda. I played his music mindlessly on the violin and hated him and didn't get him until college.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#55
Quote by Xiaoxi
About......8 years...loooooooooooooooool

Eh kinda. I played his music mindlessly on the violin and hated him and didn't get him until college.

Are there any other contrapuntal composers that have something to offer? I know Bach is the undisputed master, but surely there must be others with a unique take.
#56
Quote by TheHydra
Are there any other contrapuntal composers that have something to offer? I know Bach is the undisputed master, but surely there must be others with a unique take.

Oh sure.

Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, Mendelssohn, Debussy, Hindemith, Shostakovich, Vaughn Williams, Bartok, and Stravinsky comes to mind.

Mozart is very much in the style of Bach. Beethoven started to push it in a slightly freer direction. Starting with Debussy, these composers started building new contrapuntal languages...evolutions of Bach's.

But one thing they all have in common...they all studied Bach with more intensity than any other works.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#57
Quote by Xiaoxi
Oh sure.

Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, Mendelssohn, Debussy, Hindemith, Shostakovich, Vaughn Williams, Bartok, and Stravinsky comes to mind.

Mozart is very much in the style of Bach. Beethoven started to push it in a slightly freer direction. Starting with Debussy, these composers started building new contrapuntal languages...evolutions of Bach's.

But one thing they all have in common...they all studied Bach with more intensity than any other works.

Wow, Stravinsky? I legitimately wouldn't have thought him to be a Bach fanatic.

One more question that's kind of dumb and tangential:

Is the dark side stronger?

There's apparently a lot of debate as to who wrote the infamous "Toccata and Fugue in D Minor". The general public knows it as a Bach piece, some say he did write it and the harmony was filled in by an amateur, some say a close friend of the Bach family wrote it, some say it's actually a violin piece that's been warped and mutated, and I want to know what your take on it is. Does it match up stylistically with Bach's works?
Last edited by TheHydra at Jul 23, 2012,
#58
Quote by TheHydra
Wow, Stravinsky? I legitimately wouldn't have thought him to be a Bach fanatic.
I honestly can't think of any master composers who aren't Bach fanatics.

There's apparently a lot of debate as to who wrote the infamous "Toccata and Fugue in D Minor". The general public knows it as a Bach piece, some say he did write it and the harmony was filled in by an amateur, some say a close friend of the Bach family wrote it, some say it's actually a violin piece that's been warped and mutated, and I want to know what your take on it is. Does it match up stylistically with Bach's works?

I hate this piece. And yea, I'm gonna tell myself he didn't write it. It really is inconsistent with his idioms in a lot of places, which becomes a lot more noticeable in the fugue. It's just so sloppy, unpolished, and oversaturated.

It is very feasible that someone else wrote it. Back then, lesser known composers used more successful names to get exposure and sales.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#59
Quote by Xiaoxi
I honestly can't think of any master composers who aren't Bach fanatics.


I hate this piece. And yea, I'm gonna tell myself he didn't write it. It really is inconsistent with his idioms in a lot of places, which becomes a lot more noticeable in the fugue. It's just so sloppy, unpolished, and oversaturated.

It is very feasible that someone else wrote it. Back then, lesser known composers used more successful names to get exposure and sales.

You should take the theme from the fugue and make a more realistic Bach fugue from it.

Thanks for all the info. I really appreciate it.
#60
Quote by AeolianWolf
Emil - redo your first species. there are a lot of problems with it. firstly, use the cantus firmus we're using (the one you used for second species). try it again, using the regulations i set forth for first species.

in your second species, you have parallel fifths on two consecutive strong beats in measures 7 and 8. change that up.


Sorry, but I can't see how my first CF differ from yours or my second? Apart from the tempo being 250 rather than 200. I'm quite sure I even copy-pasted it from first to second.

Will look into improving the second.
EDIT: This is hard lol, might end up starting over again later.
Last edited by EmilGD at Jul 23, 2012,
#61
Quote by EmilGD
Sorry, but I can't see how my first CF differ from yours or my second? Apart from the tempo being 250 rather than 200. I'm quite sure I even copy-pasted it from first to second.

Will look into improving the second.
EDIT: This is hard lol, might end up starting over again later.


oops. yeah, never mind. do check your first, though. in measures 4-5 you have a descending jump of a M7 - jumps of a 7th are forbidden in species counterpoint.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#63
Hey guys, sorry to be a pain, but I've just stumbled on this thread, and had a go at at the first species... I know you've moved on already but wondered if you'd have a look at mine? I'm really new to this stuff, and I'm a bit of a theory noob, but I'm keen to learn as much as I can, so I gave it a go.

http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/6a549e61ff601452751088ec2f398f96bddba1f3

As I said I'm new to this, so don't be too hard on me :P

Thanks
#64
Quote by EmilGD
Aight, found a solution to the jump. But here is my brand new attempt at 2nd species:

http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/b2a1b4be36fd78276f9a72425eef42d10a8f47f4

Are the P8s in measure 2 and 3 hidden perfect intervals?
And I must admit I'm not really pleased by the A-C-A-C in measure 6 and 7, but I'm struggling to find another way.


make it public, and i can give you feedback on your second species.

what was your solution to the first species?

Ryhee, measure 3 to measure 4, your counterpoint jumps down a m7. no good on that. your counterpoint as a whole tends to jump around -- keep it more stepwise. use skips more tastefully. don't not use skips, but don't overuse them. and when you do use a skip, it's advisable to follow it with a step (occasionally a skip) in the opposite direction to cover the skipped ground. and try to think in contrary motion as much as possible.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#65
Ok thanks, missed that m7. Having another listen I can see what you mean about it jumping around too much. I'll see if I can fix it up when I get a chance, thanks

Edit: Ok I've had another go at it, changed some stuff around. I focused a lot more on contrary motion, and it isn't jumping around as much.
http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/6a549e61ff601452751088ec2f398f96bddba1f3
Last edited by Ryhee at Jul 23, 2012,
#69
Quote by AeolianWolf

warning: to those who participate in this thread, modes WILL BE INVOLVED. in fact, the first cantus firmus i've chosen for first species counterpoint is actually in the dorian mode, and has been harmonized as such.
if you don't mind me asking, why are these modes being used? In ancient modal counterpoint, an entirely different set of modes were used than the 7 we're familiar with today, and in modern tonal and post-tonal counterpoint, modes ended up practically out of use.
Last edited by TMVATDI at Jul 24, 2012,
#70
Quote by TMVATDI
if you don't mind me asking, why are these modes being used? In ancient modal counterpoint, an entirely different set of modes were used than the 7 we're familiar with today, and in modern tonal and post-tonal counterpoint, modes ended up practically out of use.


Because the type of music which used these principles was modal (ancient music is something entirely different, I'm guessing you mean Medieval).

And the modes were exactly the same. There were just other factors that went into modality.

Plainchant, which I'm guessing you're referring to adhered to the following principles.

Each mode existed in two forms, and authentic form, and a plagal form. The plagal form was always a fifth above or a 4th below the authentic form. So the Authentic form of Dorian therefore is D-D, whilst it;s plagal form is A-A. Plagal modes were shown by the prefix Hypo (Hypodorian, Hypolydian etc).

The first note of each mode (including hypo) was called the final (not tonic). A note of secondary importance was called the dominant or tenor, tenor meaning 'to hold' in latin. Tenor and Dominant notes were not the same in authentic and plagal forms of the same mode, nor were they the same intervallic distance from the final.

The two modal forms, finals and tenors weren't the only thing to qualify something as being in a mode. Each mode was characterized by particular melodic patterns, outlines and shapes. These shapes formed the main skeleton of a plainchant, and were used in different orders and filled in using passing notes.

Plainchant modes are not the same as scales, a mode is characterized by a set of pitches and complex melodic patterns.

Often, modal melodies didn't use all the notes present in the mode, even ones distinguishing them from other modes . A plainchant can be in D dorian without even using the notes E or B.
#71
Quote by griffRG7321
Because the type of music which used these principles was modal (ancient music is something entirely different, I'm guessing you mean Medieval).

And the modes were exactly the same. There were just other factors that went into modality.

Plainchant, which I'm guessing you're referring to adhered to the following principles.

Each mode existed in two forms, and authentic form, and a plagal form. The plagal form was always a fifth above or a 4th below the authentic form. So the Authentic form of Dorian therefore is D-D, whilst it;s plagal form is A-A. Plagal modes were shown by the prefix Hypo (Hypodorian, Hypolydian etc).

The first note of each mode (including hypo) was called the final (not tonic). A note of secondary importance was called the dominant or tenor, tenor meaning 'to hold' in latin. Tenor and Dominant notes were not the same in authentic and plagal forms of the same mode, nor were they the same intervallic distance from the final.

The two modal forms, finals and tenors weren't the only thing to qualify something as being in a mode. Each mode was characterized by particular melodic patterns, outlines and shapes. These shapes formed the main skeleton of a plainchant, and were used in different orders and filled in using passing notes.

Plainchant modes are not the same as scales, a mode is characterized by a set of pitches and complex melodic patterns.

Often, modal melodies didn't use all the notes present in the mode, even ones distinguishing them from other modes . A plainchant can be in D dorian without even using the notes E or B.

Huh. So the basic idea of a dominant/tonic relationship existed even back then. How did it begin to evolve into the tonal system?
#72
Quote by TheHydra
Huh. So the basic idea of a dominant/tonic relationship existed even back then. How did it begin to evolve into the tonal system?


Not really. Dominant/tonic is a very specific relationship, and when I was taught this, my tutor was very picky about us using calling the secondary tone either the cofinal or the tenor, as dominant has very specific connotations. It's not so much the idea of a dominant/tonic relationship, so much as basic tension/release, which is really a feature of all music, no matter how hard anyone tries to argue it's not - it is simply that tension will appear in different guises according to the nature of what you're listening to.

Short answer to your question: through the introduction of accidentals, particularly the sharpened leading-tone. Chromaticism essentially destroys any sense of modality, by removing the specific intervallic properties of a particular mode. I'm sure griff has much more to say on this than I do, though.
Last edited by National_Anthem at Jul 24, 2012,
#73
OKKK so I finished my arrangement of Bach's opening from Partita 2 for solo violin. It's originally a single line piece and I just broke it up and fleshed it out into 3-part counterpoint.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7Rs7CG6jSw

Here's the original violin version for comparison:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-yFA2kd2DA

Let me know what you guys think

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#76
Quote by Sean0913
Loved it Xiaoxi! Just great!

Best,

Sean

Thanks Sean!!

Quote by TheHydra
I decided to take a shot at making second species counterpoint that sounded bluesy, but it's a lot harder than it sounds.

http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/0113e1f9e5ff8f68646e308c8470d4108130892e

It was worth a shot.

lol not bad. I see you going for the m3/M3 feel, which is a crucial part of the blues language. You should expand on it though...there are other factors that makes something "blues".

You just reminded me of this thing I did a few years ago. I just unearthed it and wow, wtf was I thinking?
http://soundcloud.com/xwanhosting/blues-for-bach

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#77
Quote by griffRG7321
Because the type of music which used these principles was modal (ancient music is something entirely different, I'm guessing you mean Medieval).

And the modes were exactly the same. There were just other factors that went into modality.

Plainchant, which I'm guessing you're referring to adhered to the following principles.

Each mode existed in two forms, and authentic form, and a plagal form. The plagal form was always a fifth above or a 4th below the authentic form. So the Authentic form of Dorian therefore is D-D, whilst it;s plagal form is A-A. Plagal modes were shown by the prefix Hypo (Hypodorian, Hypolydian etc).

The first note of each mode (including hypo) was called the final (not tonic). A note of secondary importance was called the dominant or tenor, tenor meaning 'to hold' in latin. Tenor and Dominant notes were not the same in authentic and plagal forms of the same mode, nor were they the same intervallic distance from the final.

The two modal forms, finals and tenors weren't the only thing to qualify something as being in a mode. Each mode was characterized by particular melodic patterns, outlines and shapes. These shapes formed the main skeleton of a plainchant, and were used in different orders and filled in using passing notes.

Plainchant modes are not the same as scales, a mode is characterized by a set of pitches and complex melodic patterns.

Often, modal melodies didn't use all the notes present in the mode, even ones distinguishing them from other modes . A plainchant can be in D dorian without even using the notes E or B.

I just got learned. Thank you!
Last edited by TMVATDI at Jul 25, 2012,
#78
Quote by Xiaoxi
lol not bad. I see you going for the m3/M3 feel, which is a crucial part of the blues language. You should expand on it though...there are other factors that makes something "blues".

You just reminded me of this thing I did a few years ago. I just unearthed it and wow, wtf was I thinking?
http://soundcloud.com/xwanhosting/blues-for-bach

Yeah, that contrast was intentional. This was more of a test to see if it was feasible. I might expand on it later tonight, as I've been enjoying writing counterpoint.

I have this weird goal in my head to someday write a "spiritual sequel" to The Well Tempered Clavier, where I would write a bunch of fugues in different genres, to demonstrate how the art of fugue can be applied anywhere. I have my heart set on someday making a punk fugue for bass guitar, distorted electric guitar, and shouted vocals.
#80
Quote by TheHydra
So I tried making bluesy counterpoint again, and I struggled with it for a while until I gave up and realized it sounded better if I just did more normal counterpoint. I think this sounds pretty good: http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/bb27020f11f61c9560e4391840f7af52eab575fe

Try making more jazz inspired counterpoint and add in blue notes. I've heard lots of jazzy counterpoint, but I've never heard bluesy counterpoint without a hint of jazz. That's just the nature of the styles; there's a lot more going on in jazz melody than blues melody.