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#81
I don't think species counterpoint really fits in with the jazz/blues styles. To do jazz counterpoint, I'd need to have a lot of chromatic movements, and I don't think movements of a m2 are allowed in species counterpoint except at the end. Unless I've missed something.
Last edited by TheHydra at Jul 27, 2012,
#82
Sure. But that doesn't mean it's not worth learning: some of the principles that you learn still hold true no matter how much chromaticism you add. Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms are all composers that use a lot of chromaticism in their writing, but you can see that they'd drawn a lot from studying species counterpoint.

It's like essay writing at school: most of us will never have to write an essay or an article in our lives, but some of the skills are transferable to say, letter writing or whatever.
#83
Species counterpoint is really the study of melody. Sure, the 'counterpoint' aspect is import, but the really important thing to take away from it, for most people, is the melodic aspects. It's conservative melody, but ultimately tonal melody is virtually the same from era to era and style to style. The fluff changes, but the attributes of a good quality melody (i.e. one that we find pleasing) is really the same.
#84
Oh no, I know that. It's just that I wanted to see if I could write bluesy species counterpoint and I've come to the conclusion that it's borderline impossible at this point. I still fully intend to follow through with species study.
#86
Quote by EmilGD
So... 3rd species anyone?


This Olympic games shizz is pretty boring, so yes.
#87
okay, then, third species. for those of you who don't know, 3rd species is 4 notes against one (so four quarter notes against a whole note).

rules:

  • all rules from first and second species apply.
  • the counterpoint may begin either on a quarter note or a quarter rest - in either case, the first note must be a perfect consonance.
  • the first quarter note in a measure is always consonant, the third is usually consonant, and the second and fourth may be dissonant. the third may be dissonant if the first, second, and fourth are consonant. if the first and fourth note in a measure are a P4 apart, the second and third may be dissonant, provided they are moving in stepwise motion, creating a "double passing tone".
  • the types of embellishment permitted are: passing tones, neighbor tones, the nota cambiata*, and embellishing tones (consonant skips).


*illustration of a nota cambiata - http://www.listeningarts.com/music/general_theory/species/3rdex9.mov

questions, as always, are welcome.

here's my contribution: http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/1a107bb0acbfa3a9292cc45614abea4dc93098f8
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
Last edited by AeolianWolf at Feb 4, 2013,
#88
Quote by National_Anthem
Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms are all composers that use a lot of chromaticism in their writing, but you can see that they'd drawn a lot from studying species counterpoint.

How do you know that?

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#89
Bit late on this, plowed through all three species today because I didn't have anything else to do. I don't think I did too badly

First Species:

http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/108d2b5c4730e386507455ce8eb15d9b96912818

Second Species:

http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/fd58279ee0ce1cfb7ab08a23bbfc464341cd3e2d

Third Species:

http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/588d7f3d0524c15fe433a2ebbb40cbde0b76b8d6
.
#90
Quote by Nietsche
Bit late on this, plowed through all three species today because I didn't have anything else to do. I don't think I did too badly

First Species:

http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/108d2b5c4730e386507455ce8eb15d9b96912818

Second Species:

http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/fd58279ee0ce1cfb7ab08a23bbfc464341cd3e2d

Third Species:

http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/588d7f3d0524c15fe433a2ebbb40cbde0b76b8d6


first species was good.

second species:
- measure 4, note 2 - you're leaping into a dissonance. no good. if you change it to an E instead, you'll be good.
- try to think more in contrary motion when possible.

third species didn't have anything wrong with it per se, but try to find some solutions that are more melodic and sound more pleasant. it kind of sounds like your line is just meandering -- especially in the least few measures, where you ascend stepwise, then descend stepwise, then ascend stepwise again to the tonic. remember that this is species counterpoint - treatment is more like melodies of the renaissance motets than a bach composition. by that i mean that sequences tend to be avoided rather than welcomed. don't think in terms of sequences (which, i'll admit, was the most difficult thing i had to learn to do when i studied counterpoint, because i'm such a sucker for bach's sequenced motives).
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#91
Thanks for the comments AW. I've fixed the faulty note in m4 of the second species. I might try another having another swing at second and third species tomorrow, keeping what you've said in mind.
.
Last edited by Nietsche at Jul 28, 2012,
#92
For the third species, you leap from and to a dissonance several times. Measure 2 beat 3-4, measure three beat 2-3, measure 4 beat 3-4, and measure 5 beat 3-4. Also generally what AW said about the melody. It has a tendency to meander a bit, although it's hard not to meander in third species.

Third species is definitely the hardest, so it only gets better from here on out.
#93
There can't be a problem with measure three because all the motion in that measure is stepwise, I think you meant measure four beats 2-3, but I see what you mean, though in my partial defence all the offending 'dissonances' are actually fourths.
.
#100
I feel like a lot of your measures sound very self-contained because you have a lot of leaps between measures, so the melody doesn't flow very well. Also you have parallel octaves measures 8-9.

I made some edits/completely re-wrote it here: http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/87cb8d7e34e355112543db868e5b4c99351988d0
#101
I fixed the parallel octave, but you kind of improved it further than I really can.
#102
Working on my 3rd now, is tritone an allowed dissonance? I suppose not?
#105
Quote by EmilGD
And Aeolian, isn't the second to last note supposed to be leading tone? Yours isn't, although I suspect you've just forgot to accidental it, as you have done so on the second beat to create a neighboring tone between.


you sure about that?

your third species leaps around quite a bit -- possibly even to the point where i'm not sure i could say it's mostly stepwise. a lot of your intervals are mislabeled, too - make sure you know what you're writing at all times. and that Db is really throwing things off - you have a flattened tonic, which is a bit weird. technically speaking, you have a parallel fifth between measures 5 and 6 - do you see it? remember that parallel intervals can only occur when both voices move - if you halt one voice's movement, then it's considered with the next interval's movement. the cantus firmus moves from G to F, and the counterpoint a fifth above it, from D to C (even though the D makes a sixth against the F).

the biggest issue you have is that your melody doesn't really flow - that's the key point of it. the melody should be singable and vocally idiomatic, since species counterpoint is really a vocal genre. take a listen to my third species again - notice that the melody is sure of its movement, and not really meandering. what techniques did i use to achieve that?
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#106
Well, first shot at the first species, and I think I may have either done it slightly right, or horribly. :P

http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/03e1ed54e750fd5511d1f8d5b3037a54108c5b63
Join the 7 String Legion!

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#108
Quote by AeolianWolf
you left out a segment of the cantus firmus - about 3 measures, if i remember right. check it again and retry.


Ooops. Hold please.

http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/03e1ed54e750fd5511d1f8d5b3037a54108c5b63
Did I get it at least partially right this time?
Join the 7 String Legion!

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.

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Last edited by Mister A.J. at Jul 30, 2012,
#109
Oh, lol, what was I thinking?
Still kinda new to staff-reading, so I make some silly reading mistakes.
Fixed all the mislabelings, I think.
I see what you mean with the parallell fifth, wasn't aware that it worked like that.
What I don't really see is what you mean with "leaps around quite a bit", it's mostly stepwise isn't it? Maybe except for the beginning. Those half-steps doesn't quite work for singing, though, didn't think about that. I see you're using a lot of stepwise ascending patterns, I guess that is something. What more am I missing?
#110
Quote by Mister A.J.
Ooops. Hold please.

http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/03e1ed54e750fd5511d1f8d5b3037a54108c5b63
Did I get it at least partially right this time?

Way too many leaps. Measure 1-5 is all leaps and then measures 6-9 are all leaps, that simply doesn't work. Also, you have battered fifths going into measure 7.
#111
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
Way too many leaps. Measure 1-5 is all leaps and then measures 6-9 are all leaps, that simply doesn't work. Also, you have battered fifths going into measure 7.

Aw... Hold again please.


Okay... I think I got it this time. Fingers crossed...
http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/03e1ed54e750fd5511d1f8d5b3037a54108c5b63
Join the 7 String Legion!

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.

Messiaen is Magical


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Last edited by Mister A.J. at Jul 30, 2012,
#112
Quote by Mister A.J.
Aw... Hold again please.


Okay... I think I got it this time. Fingers crossed...
http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/03e1ed54e750fd5511d1f8d5b3037a54108c5b63


you're still not reading the cantus firmus right. compare it with everyone else's - we're all using the same cantus firmus. be sure to copy it exactly.

Quote by EmilGD
Oh, lol, what was I thinking?
Still kinda new to staff-reading, so I make some silly reading mistakes.
Fixed all the mislabelings, I think.
I see what you mean with the parallell fifth, wasn't aware that it worked like that.
What I don't really see is what you mean with "leaps around quite a bit", it's mostly stepwise isn't it? Maybe except for the beginning. Those half-steps doesn't quite work for singing, though, didn't think about that. I see you're using a lot of stepwise ascending patterns, I guess that is something. What more am I missing?


i did a count - you have 11 skips and 22 steps. that ratio is a little high: 1 skip for every 2 steps. the skips you do use need to be treated a little better. in this style, skips are difficult to sing, so make your skips more vocally idiomatic. your beginning really isn't very good, for that same reason. if you're thinking in terms of modern vocals, you're not going to get good counterpoint - maybe take a listen to a few pieces of sixteenth century music. here's something to start:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mdmco61Htk

but keep in mind that species counterpoint isn't really musical - it's more about note treatment. musicality comes later, so pay less attention to the musicality in this palestrina example, and more attention to note treatment. notice how stepwise motion is far more prevalent than skipwise motion.

get rid of those Dbs, too.

that tie you have on your A is really no good - since you have a unison there, it gives the impression that one voice has momentarily disappeared. and that part where you have the tie and it goes to a parallel fifth -- just get rid of the tie there, too. suspensions aren't permitted yet -- that's what fourth species is all about. i'd say don't even use ties here. a lot of what makes counterpoint good is the motion between voices. since we don't have suspensions in our vernacular just yet, it's best that you be able to utilize every opportunity you get to draw attention to the distinction between the voices. notice how, on the first beat of the measure, i almost always utilize contrary motion. i used similar motion twice, parallel motion once, and contrary motion seven times.

let me see what else you can come up with.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#113
Quote by AeolianWolf
you're still not reading the cantus firmus right. compare it with everyone else's - we're all using the same cantus firmus. be sure to copy it exactly.

... I feel like an idiot now. Hold please.

Okay... I think I've (finally) gotten it. I hope anyway...
http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/03e1ed54e750fd5511d1f8d5b3037a54108c5b63
Join the 7 String Legion!

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.

Messiaen is Magical


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Last edited by Mister A.J. at Jul 30, 2012,
#114
The Cantus Firmus looks ok, but it looks like you've got a hidden perfect fifth in bars 4-5 (The voices approach the fifth by similar motion).
.
#115
Quote by Nietsche
The Cantus Firmus looks ok, but it looks like you've got a hidden perfect fifth in bars 4-5 (The voices approach the fifth by similar motion).

... Dammit. Hold please.

Okay... After bashing my head into a wall, I think I may have finally done it correctly.
http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/03e1ed54e750fd5511d1f8d5b3037a54108c5b63
Join the 7 String Legion!

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.

Messiaen is Magical


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This message has been approved by:

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Last edited by Mister A.J. at Jul 30, 2012,
#116
Ait, good feedback, starting a new one.
Looking at yours Aeolian, the P8s in the 3rd beats in measure 6 and 7, is that allowed or is that parallell perfects? Not trying to point out mistakes, I was just studying your use of consonants.


EDIT: And about the compass, when the tonic being D4, if the counterpoint is above the CF and in authentic form, must it then be D4-D5, or can it be D5-D6?
Last edited by EmilGD at Jul 30, 2012,
#117
Quote by EmilGD
Ait, good feedback, starting a new one.
Looking at yours Aeolian, the P8s in the 3rd beats in measure 6 and 7, is that allowed or is that parallell perfects? Not trying to point out mistakes, I was just studying your use of consonants.


that's actually a good question. you'll notice i actually have one in measure 5, as well. they're actually permitted, and let me explain why.

so long as there is one note separating the octaves, they're fine. looking back to your example, you'll notice that the reason you had perfect fifths earlier is because there was no note in the counterpoint that separated the two notes - it was simply tied and it resolved via suspension (not EXACTLY, because a sixth isn't a dissonance, but i'll get into that when we do fourth species) down to a fifth, giving you two voices that moved down a fifth, albeit a beat apart. if the cantus firmus was to move as well, then it obviously wouldn't be a fifth, and would be acceptable - but you have fifths in this case both times.

in third species counterpoint, two adjacent intervals that are a P8 apart (P8 - P8) will obviously be parallel octaves. if i was to have something in between them, it would be fine (P8 - M6 - P8). this is acceptable, but the more space between perfect intervals, the better. (P8 - M6 - M3 - P8) would be even better, but typically the best solution (which i employed twice) is to have at least three intervals separating the parallel octaves. to sum it up:

no intermediate interval: bad
1 intermediate interval: good
2 intermediate intervals: better
3 intermediate intervals: best

all are acceptable except for the solution where there is no intermediate interval. in my case, i used (8 - 10 - 10 - 9 - 8) and (8 - 7 - 10 - 9 -8). you'll notice that i also did the same thing on the final interval in measures 2-4. those are also fine. however, in measures 4 and 5, i have two P8 intervals separated only by two intermediate intervals. this isn't the best, but it was a good solution for the example at hand, so i opted to use it. make sense?

Quote by EmilGD
Ait, good feedback, starting a new one.
Looking at yours Aeolian, the P8s in the 3rd beats in measure 6 and 7, is that allowed or is that parallell perfects? Not trying to point out mistakes, I was just studying your use of consonants.


EDIT: And about the compass, when the tonic being D4, if the counterpoint is above the CF and in authentic form, must it then be D4-D5, or can it be D5-D6?


either is acceptable. in species counterpoint, the spacing should NEVER exceed a fifteenth (two octaves), but even fifteenths should only be used sparingly. for the vast majority of the counterpoint, the spacing should not exceed a twelfth (most of it should actually be under a tenth if you have two voices, just don't overuse the twelfth). the use of up to a thirteenth is acceptable in moderation, and 15ths extremely sparingly. notice that i have only one 15th (which i qualified with an exclamation mark) and two thirteenths. i also have two twelfths and two elevenths. everything else is a tenth or closer. given that my counterpoint has 41 notes, that means that 34 of them are within the compass of a tenth -- about 85% of it.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
Last edited by AeolianWolf at Jul 30, 2012,
#119
Done with my new 3rd species, is this one better? I feel the first beat 1s makes the voices a bit less distinct, but especially that 2nd measure is hard IMO. Measure 6 is also kinda questionable. http://www.noteflight.com/scores/view/146e98e09280ce8111f621a37a78d6fdf1f7b1f2

Also, I might have misunderstood the compass to begin with. I took it for being D-D or A-A, but is it maybe the current C.F. note? If so, that may explain why I often feel quite limited in my options


So many holes in my understanding/knowledge of theory...
#120
That retardation in the second to last bar is no good, I don't even think retardations are allowed in any of the species. Too many unisons, I suggest moving it up the octave to begin with because unisons are generally not allowed.

More generally, I think you have the exact opposite problem as the other guy: you have an awful lot of stepwise motion, especially unidirectional stepwise motion.

In third species I would say you can expand the compass beyond on octave to maybe a 10th or 11th, but I don't know if that's an actual rule. Also, an important melodic concept that often gets overlooked is the apogee, or highest note in the melody. Generally you want to repeat that note as little as possible, ideally only having it once, and you have that D 6 times.