Poll: Scottish Independence
Poll Options
View poll results: Scottish Independence
I'm from America and I say yes
22 14%
I'm from America and I say no
6 4%
I'm from America and I don't care/know
28 18%
I'm from Europe and I say yes
8 5%
I'm from Europe and I say no
8 5%
I'm from Europe and I don't care
9 6%
I'm from the UK specifically and I say yes
23 15%
I'm from the UK specifically and I say no
24 16%
I'm from the UK specifically and I don't care
24 16%
Voters: 152.
Page 3 of 6
#81
Quote by slapsymcdougal
As things stand, it's pretty much a kiddy parliament, which gets to decide how to spend it's pocket money, and doesn't get a say on a large number of subjects.
Then why the hell even have it? Jeese, fuck a PM. Let's make ya'll a real parliament.

Also, sounds like the English House of Lords, aka "useless".
#82
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Then why the hell even have it? Jeese, fuck a PM. Let's make ya'll a real parliament.

Also, sounds like the English House of Lords, aka "useless".

There are plenty of Scots, Welsh and Irish in that house.
Quote by Diemon Dave
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#83
Quote by slapsymcdougal
There are plenty of Scots, Welsh and Irish in that house.

My bad. Still, that doesn't make the House of Lords any less useless.
#84
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
My bad. Still, that doesn't make the House of Lords any less useless.


Why even bother talking about stuff you have absolutely no knowledge of?
#85
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
My bad. Still, that doesn't make the House of Lords any less useless.

If having second house to scrutinize legislation is useless, then yea, I guess it's useless.
Quote by Diemon Dave
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#86
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
My bad. Still, that doesn't make the House of Lords any less useless.


Possibly, but that has no relevance to the point of Scottish independence.
...Stapling helium to penguins since 1949.
#87
Quote by gabcd86
Why even bother talking about stuff you have absolutely no knowledge of?

The House of Lords has no real power. They haven't for a few centuries. That's the job of the House of Commons.

Ergo, useless. Don't try to argue otherwise.

Quote by Todd Hart
Possibly, but that has no relevance to the point of Scottish independence.

Eh, true. I was merely saying that the Scottish Parliament is about as useful as the House of Lords. Point being, why not just strengthen the powers of the Scottish Parliament, so you have some actual power up there?
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Aug 10, 2012,
#88
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
The House of Lords has no real power. They haven't for a few centuries. That's the job of the House of Commons.

Ergo, useless. Don't try to argue otherwise.



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~ Bill Watterson


O__o
#89
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
The House of Lords has no real power. They haven't for a few centuries. That's the job of the House of Commons.

Ergo, useless. Don't try to argue otherwise.


They scrutinise legislation and can hold up poorly drafted bills. In the past parliament, given the particularities of the coalition, and their general incompetence, they've provided a valuable moderator.

Just a hint - when trying to be condescending, it helps to be in a position of greater knowledge.
#90
I couldn't give a toss, it's not my place to comment on Scottish national identity.
"If God exists, there's no way he is French" - Andrea Pirlo

S A D B O Y S
#91
Quote by I.O.T.M
I couldn't give a toss, it's not my place to comment on Scottish national identity.


And you call yourself an Englishman? What is wrong with you?
#92
Quote by gabcd86
They scrutinise legislation and can hold up poorly drafted bills. In the past parliament, given the particularities of the coalition, and their general incompetence, they've provided a valuable moderator.

Just a hint - when trying to be condescending, it helps to be in a position of greater knowledge.

I'm not trying to be condescending, I'm merely trying to point out that, if you have two houses, it's best if one house can actually do more than "scrutinize" (US spelling) bills. A bicameral legislation doesn't do much if one house has more power than the other.
#93
Can't the House of Lords just delay stuff for a while, send it back to the Commons, and then it gets through eventually? Swear this happening with the fox hunting ban.

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bring back UG classic
#95
Independence could improve income levels in Scotland. Any increase in barriers would give an incentive for companies to set up a firm there. It may decrease growth in the long run though.
Quote by Carmel
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ಠ_ಠ
Last edited by Neo Evil11 at Aug 10, 2012,
#96
Quote by EndTheRapture51
Can't the House of Lords just delay stuff for a while, send it back to the Commons, and then it gets through eventually? Swear this happening with the fox hunting ban.

Pretty much.

But the Lords delaying something highlights that the bill isn't exactly perfect in its current form and so (in theory) creates public pressure on the commons to amend it or abandon it.

For Fox hunting, the legislation had a large amount of public support anyway.

The legislation was meant to take away power from the unelected house and put it firmly in the hands of the commons.
Rhythm in Jump. Dancing Close to You.

Quote by element4433
Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
#97
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
I'm not trying to be condescending, I'm merely trying to point out that, if you have two houses, it's best if one house can actually do more than "scrutinize" (US spelling) bills. A bicameral legislation doesn't do much if one house has more power than the other.


That doesn't make it useless, which was what you said. It's not supposed to have power, power rests in the elected house.
#98
Normally I'd be thinking 'yes definitely!' but with Scotland I'm not sure. They have their own parliament and judicial system, and they at least get to refer to Scotland as a country. I think it would only cause problems for Scotland, if it wouldn't I'd be okay with independence.

Edit: And yes, I know Scottish parliament isn't the same as the British parliament.
Last edited by slipknot5678 at Aug 10, 2012,
#99
I'm indifferent, but said yes in the poll.

Rebellion is fun

But in all seriousness, I think the quality of life will lower a fair bit in Scotland if this goes through. I can't imagine them being able to afford the same luxuries when they can only rely on their own tax money.

I'd happily donate some jenever to Scotland though.
Last edited by Lord_Doku at Aug 10, 2012,
#100
Can I just ask, with all seriousness, what really is the point of Scotland gaining independence? I don't see how it truly benefits Scotland other than perhaps helping the public's national spirit. Scotland isn't oppressed by England, its culture is rather widely celebrated throughout the UK. Economically it would be no better off, politically it would gain some liberties, but then the political possibilities aren't being discussed as widely as they should be. I just don't see how it would gain greatly from independence, rather than simply rallying for greater political rights over itself.
...Stapling helium to penguins since 1949.
#102
Quote by gabcd86
And you call yourself an Englishman? What is wrong with you?

Nigga you French.
"If God exists, there's no way he is French" - Andrea Pirlo

S A D B O Y S
#103
Quote by Todd Hart
Can I just ask, with all seriousness, what really is the point of Scotland gaining independence? I don't see how it truly benefits Scotland other than perhaps helping the public's national spirit. Scotland isn't oppressed by England, its culture is rather widely celebrated throughout the UK. Economically it would be no better off, politically it would gain some liberties, but then the political possibilities aren't being discussed as widely as they should be. I just don't see how it would gain greatly from independence, rather than simply rallying for greater political rights over itself.


Well, I'm not Scottish, but I think alot of the desire for independance comes from whithin the culture prized so greatly by the whole of the UK. Scotsmen simply don't like the English. They never have.
#104
Quote by Lord_Doku
Well, I'm not Scottish, but I think alot of the desire for independance comes from whithin the culture prized so greatly by the whole of the UK. Scotsmen simply don't like the English. They never have.


Indeed, but that isn't a logical reason to desire political independence when co-operation is superior.
...Stapling helium to penguins since 1949.
#105
Quote by Todd Hart
Can I just ask, with all seriousness, what really is the point of Scotland gaining independence? I don't see how it truly benefits Scotland other than perhaps helping the public's national spirit. Scotland isn't oppressed by England, its culture is rather widely celebrated throughout the UK. Economically it would be no better off, politically it would gain some liberties, but then the political possibilities aren't being discussed as widely as they should be. I just don't see how it would gain greatly from independence, rather than simply rallying for greater political rights over itself.


I agree. You may as well ask "Why bother keeping the EU?"

You could say that politically it has advantages, but really, economically it has turned it into a toilet. Same could happen with Scotland.
#106
Quote by Lord_Doku
I'm indifferent, but said yes in the poll.

Rebellion is fun

But in all seriousness, I think the quality of life will lower a fair bit in Scotland if this goes through. I can't imagine them being able to afford the same luxuries when they can only rely on their own tax money.

I'd happily donate some jenever to Scotland though.


How much lower can it get??
#107
Quote by Todd Hart
Indeed, but that isn't a logical reason to desire political independence when co-operation is superior.


But does co-operation always prove superior ? It's not a nessecity for the survival of a nation, not always. Scotland has always kept its head high through all the misery it's been pulled through. I think, personally, they are still capable of standing on their own two feet and keeping the GDP high enough to avoid financial trouble.

And even then, don't we have the European Union as proof that co-operation takes ages, doesn't accomplish much when accomplishments are demanded by the people in a timespan short enough to satisfy the short-tempered socially-overactive sheeple ? To be fair though, the relationship between Scotland and the rest of the UK cannot be compared to the EU, but it's still IMO a good example.

Quote by Philip_pepper
How much lower can it get??

They could lose the financial backbone to produce Scotch. Yes. It can go that low
Last edited by Lord_Doku at Aug 10, 2012,
#108
Quote by Lord_Doku
But does co-operation always prove superior ? It's not a nessecity for the survival of a nation, not always. Scotland has always kept its head high through all the misery it's been pulled through. I think, personally, they are still capable of standing on their own two feet and keeping the GDP high enough to avoid financial trouble.

And even then, don't we have the European Union as proof that co-operation takes ages, doesn't accomplish much when accomplishments are demanded by the people in a timespan short enough to satisfy the short-tempered socially-overactive sheeple ? To be fair though, the relationship between Scotland and the rest of the UK cannot be compared to the EU, but it's still IMO a good example.


You and Phillip are conflating the EU with the euro. The EU shows how effective international co-operation can be - it's held up as the shining example of a supra-national body.

As to the independence thing, I guess there comes a point where they'll "devo max" so much that they'll be part of the UK in name only. I think that'd be a good solution, really, keeping foreign policy and defence in common, keeping the pound, and then maybe having an English parliament for consistency's sake.
#109
Quote by gabcd86
You and Phillip are conflating the EU with the euro. The EU shows how effective international co-operation can be - it's held up as the shining example of a supra-national body.

The effectivity of the EU comes mainly from the agreement that all of the EU's legislation is forced into national policy. To better portray what I mean, if the EU wants to raise it's overall budget, it only needs to tell the member nations to account for that in their own budgetary planning.

The same goes for laws regarding housing: here in the Netherlands, alot of people can't afford the current rental prices without a bachelor degree and a fitting job, or without lowering their consumption of the goods; this being vital for the flow of the economy. Before the EU forced it on us, people could easily, and fairly, afford the rent, and with EU legislation forced down our throat, our property market has practically come to a halt.

So in short: the EU can be efficient, but only because it can enforce their own national policies.

As to the independence thing, I guess there comes a point where they'll "devo max" so much that they'll be part of the UK in name only. I think that'd be a good solution, really, keeping foreign policy and defence in common, keeping the pound, and then maybe having an English parliament for consistency's sake.

I think that would be a good compromise if the majority vote is against independance. Then again, it could be (propably will be) alot of bureaucratic turmoil, with new laws, required re-organisation (would also be nessecary in independant Scotland, but still) and I can't imagine the EU not barging in, claiming the UK needs to hurry up in order to stabilize the Scottish economy, as well as the English.

In reality, we can't tell what's going to happen. But the safest bet is your guess.
#110
Quote by Lord_Doku
The effectivity of the EU comes mainly from the agreement that all of the EU's legislation is forced into national policy. To better portray what I mean, if the EU wants to raise it's overall budget, it only needs to tell the member nations to account for that in their own budgetary planning.

The same goes for laws regarding housing: here in the Netherlands, alot of people can't afford the current rental prices without a bachelor degree and a fitting job, or without lowering their consumption of the goods; this being vital for the flow of the economy. Before the EU forced it on us, people could easily, and fairly, afford the rent, and with EU legislation forced down our throat, our property market has practically come to a halt.

So in short: the EU can be efficient, but only because it can enforce their own national policies.


The EU can't really operate without the consent of its member states. They can use the EU as cover for stuff, but as demonstrated by the British government repeatedly ignoring rulings from the ECHR, or the near-universal breaking of the stability pact, national governments will continue not giving ****s.
I can't comment on your Dutch example, as I don't know what impact the EU has on property laws, etc., but my point was more in terms of fostering trade, which its removal of barriers has done, and also the cultural change it has brought about.
#111
Quote by Philip_pepper
It would have maybe worked 30-40 years ago, but since then BP has taken most of the oil. Scotland could have teamed up with Norway and Pharoe Islands and becomes a SUPERUNION.

They could have called themselves MegaScotland...or UltraScotland.

But on a serious note, I don't see any hard evidence for why it should happen. I've never actually heard Alex Salmon mention anything that has made any sense. What currency would be used? Why would Scotland be better off? Surely there are complications to it and I don't hear you mentioning them. Watch Scotland use the euro and beg for a bailout within 6 months.

Uh, maybe because they fucking want independence?
#112
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
I'm not trying to be condescending, I'm merely trying to point out that, if you have two houses, it's best if one house can actually do more than "scrutinize" (US spelling) bills. A bicameral legislation doesn't do much if one house has more power than the other.

The senate has more power than the house of reps.
#113
Quote by due 07
The senate has more power than the house of reps.



Thank god, too.
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#114
My Scottish lineage compels me to say

HELL YES! DOWN WITH THE BRITS!

But really, I have no idea what's going on.
Quote by Trowzaa
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#115
I was going to make this thread, but I would have split the poll options so that the it had the UK as Scotland and UK(except Scotland).


Quote by slapsymcdougal
Because England is shit, and needs Scotland to reduce the wank to good guy ratio.




I am Scottish and I just Independently decided to have lasagne for breakfast at half five in the morning.
But boys will be boys and girls have those eyes
that'll cut you to ribbons, sometimes
and all you can do is just wait by the moon
and bleed if it's what she says you ought to do
Last edited by Hydra150 at Aug 11, 2012,
#116
I'm from Scotland, and I say "aye".

Quote by Todd Hart
Can I just ask, with all seriousness, what really is the point of Scotland gaining independence? I don't see how it truly benefits Scotland other than perhaps helping the public's national spirit. Scotland isn't oppressed by England, its culture is rather widely celebrated throughout the UK. Economically it would be no better off, politically it would gain some liberties, but then the political possibilities aren't being discussed as widely as they should be. I just don't see how it would gain greatly from independence, rather than simply rallying for greater political rights over itself.


One of the primary reasons for the American revolution was self-determination. Considering the massive amount of power the UK parliament has over Scotland, and the very small influence Scotland has over parliament, I don't blame the Scottish people if they want to govern themselves. I mean, we have a parliament too, but it has fairly little power compared to the UK.
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Last edited by zippidyduda at Aug 11, 2012,
#117
Quote by gabcd86

As to the independence thing, I guess there comes a point where they'll "devo max" so much that they'll be part of the UK in name only. I think that'd be a good solution, really, keeping foreign policy and defence in common, keeping the pound, and then maybe having an English parliament for consistency's sake.


I'm no happier with defence and foreign policy being balls upped by you lot than anything else . Frankly it's gotta be one of the bigger budget sinks that we'd get away from.

The thought alone of what an English parliament would be like makes me shudder...
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#118
As a citizen from a country in a similar situation (Catalonia), I completely understand and support their reasons for independence. Altough I think their situation is not as bad as it is here.
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Last edited by Mahoru at Aug 11, 2012,
#119
Quote by Mahoru
As a citizen from a country in a similar situation (Catalonia), I completely understand and support their reasons for independence. Altough I think their situation is not as bad as it is here.

The hope is that we can be a shining example of how 'separation' can be done well.
But boys will be boys and girls have those eyes
that'll cut you to ribbons, sometimes
and all you can do is just wait by the moon
and bleed if it's what she says you ought to do
#120
Quote by Hydra150
The hope is that we can be a shining example of how 'separation' can be done well.


I really hope so! You're much more civilized and have a lot more common sense than the Spanish people here, as you might know. In fact, I think if they were like you, there could still be a possibility of coexistence here, but since they act like know-it-alls and openly disrespect us, well... that's just not an option any more
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- Alhambra 5P
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- Line 6 POD XT
- Suhr Shiba Drive
- MXR Carbon Copy Analog Delay
- Dunlop Cry Baby