Page 1 of 3
#1
I know I'm risking my life right now, but can you consider Army Of Me by Bjork being in
C locrian? Especially the verses.

The bass is playing: C Gb Ab and Bb
She's singing: C Db Eb
It resolves to C
Last edited by deHufter at Sep 1, 2012,
#2
Would depend on the rest of the song. It's most likely just accidentals within C minor that use accidentals that are associated with C Locrian. Modes aren't really on/off.
#3
I think it's hardly accidentals when throughout the whole song it's:

C Db Eb Gb Ab and Bb. She really emphasizes the Db, but I agree that it could be an accidental cause the Gb is used sparely. In the chorus she clearly sings a G over some kind of chromatic progression (D - Db - C).

That's why I thought the verse could be considered locrian while the chorus is more C minor with accidentals.
Last edited by deHufter at Sep 1, 2012,
#4
Even if the whole song was C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb, no.

Does it sound resolved? It's ****ing tonal.
#5
You have a rather odd definition of modal and tonal: it's modal when there's no form of resolution whatsoever. Couldnt agree with that.

Here's some soap to cleanse your mouth from filthy talk:

Last edited by deHufter at Sep 1, 2012,
#6
Quote by deHufter
Here's some soap to cleanse your mouth from filthy talk:



lol.


I can't help you personally, ts. but I commend your taste in music.
#7
Quote by deHufter
You have a rather odd definition of modal and tonal: it's modal when there's no form of resolution whatsoever. Couldnt agree with that.


I didn't say that.

What I should of said is 'learn what tonality is and stop clutching at straws trying to find something that is modal just to satisfy your ego when the song is tonal'.

Want something modal? Go listen to some Gregorian chant

Here's some soap to cleanse your mouth from filthy talk:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_osQvkeNRM
Last edited by griffRG7321 at Sep 1, 2012,
#8
May I then ask your opinion about the modes-sticky?

If I don't get you wrong you must think this and this is a load of crap right?
#10
Quote by griffRG7321
If you understand tonality, it's pretty useless (no offense to Darren).


You know, I understand why people get frustrated with this line of answer.

For a coupe of reasons:

First of all, it's not really an answer. Gregorian chants, once assumes, aren't modal because they're gregorian chants, but rather because of certain musical qualities that they have. It's not impossible for those musical qualities to be applied to a contemporary piece of music, is it?

On most subjects, people can ask a question on this board and get a useful answer. But on the question of "What makes something modal, and what makes something tonal?" people are basically told that they just don't understand enough.

I have a pretty good grasp of tonality, and I can't answer that question. I asked once and got the answer "tonality has replaced modality" which isn't, actually, an answer to the question.

Furthermore, there are smart people out there who know music who describe plenty of contemporary music as modal. eg, Howard Goodall has described both "Elanor Rigby" and "We Work the Black Seam" as modal. I'm quite confident that some regular posters here would disagree. But without some sort of functional definition, so long as the answer is always something like "you want modal, listen to gregorian chants" or "keys have replaced modes" nobody has the tools to square the circle.

I think modes confuse more than they help, and I am as frustrated as anyone about how much guitarists seem to obsess over them. More often than not, I understand why it makes sense to think of a mode as a series of accidentals in fundamentally tonal music.

But I wish some folks here would at least try to give the bare bones of a functional definition.
#11
I don't really get the hostility. I'm asking a question if something could be considered modal, I didn't state: IT'S MODAL MAN! LOOK AT ME BEING SMART!

I think there are two groups of people here on this forum: people who have a conservative and fundamentalistic view of modes and people who have a wider definition. The first group thinks -with all due respect grifff- that gregorian chants are modal, but soon as you play the melody on a guitar it's tonal. Everytime there's a mode threat there's this -as hotspur said- invisible unknown set of vague rules which define modal. Only the people who shout THAT'S NOT MODAL seem to 'know' what that is, but can't really make it more concrete than: 'Well hey, 99% of all songs is tonal'.
#13
People trying to label everything as modal are the same people trying to call a bII chord a Neapolitan chord. It's trying to make things sound more complicated than they are.

"C, D/C, G/B, that's lydian bro, I'll use the C lydian scale over it"
#15
What's the issue with calling it a Neapolitan chord?

It's a conventional name for something. It's not attempting to make things more complicated, it's simply calling something by its name. If I call you "Griff" instead of "human being", am I needlessly complicating matters?
#16
Quote by :-D
What's the issue with calling it a Neapolitan chord?


Because that's not what it is.

Quote by :-D
It's a conventional name for something. It's not attempting to make things more complicated, it's simply calling something by its name. If I call you "Griff" instead of "human being", am I needlessly complicating matters?


If you called someone who looked like me Griff who wasn't called Griff, then yes.


Quote by deHufter
Then enlighten us. What's your definition of modal?


Characterized by particular melodic patterns, outlines and shapes. These shapes formed the main skeleton of modal music, and were used in different orders and filled in using passing notes depending on the mode. A mode is characterized by a set of pitches and complex melodic patterns.
Last edited by griffRG7321 at Sep 1, 2012,
#17
Quote by griffRG7321
People trying to label everything as modal are the same people trying to call a bII chord a Neapolitan chord. It's trying to make things sound more complicated than they are.


Again - Howard Goodall, a highly respected English composer and teacher - called "Elanor Rigby" modal (in his "20th Century Masters - The Beatles" program) and "We Work the Black Seam" modal (in his "How Music Works" series).

I am not asking this question rhetorically in any way, shape, or form. I'm honestly trying to understand what appears to me to be a disagreement between two sets of people who know more about music than I do. So the question is:

Why is he wrong?
#18
Quote by griffRG7321
Because that's not what it is.

I may have misunderstood your initial post - are you just referring to people calling any instance of a bII a Neapolitan?
#19
Quote by :-D
I may have misunderstood your initial post - are you just referring to people calling any instance of a bII a Neapolitan?


No. Calling a root position or second inversion bII a Neapolitan chord.


Quote by HotspurJr


Why is he wrong?


Because both of those songs are tonal.
Last edited by griffRG7321 at Sep 1, 2012,
#21
Quote by griffRG7321

Characterized by particular melodic patterns, outlines and shapes.


What melodic patterns? Which outlines and which shapes?

Quote by griffRG7321

the main skeleton


What do you mean with skeleton?

Quote by griffRG7321

different orders


Such as?

Quote by griffRG7321

and filled in using passing notes depending on the mode.


What do you mean with passing notes?

Quote by griffRG7321

A mode is characterized by a set of pitches and complex melodic patterns.


What set of pitches? Examples? What do you mean by complex? Is a mode per definition complex? And if yes, why? Which melodic patterns?

Could you be more concrete?
#22
Quote by deHufter
What melodic patterns? Which outlines and which shapes?

What do you mean with skeleton?

Such as?

What do you mean with passing notes?

What set of pitches? Examples? What do you mean by complex? Is a mode per definition complex? And if yes, why? Which melodic patterns?

Could you be more concrete?


If you're interested in writing plainchants, get a book on the subject.

A passing note is one or two notes connecting two chord tones by step.
#23
Quote by griffRG7321
If you're interested in writing plainchants, get a book on the subject.

A passing note is one or two notes connecting two chord tones by step.


Don't think this is an answer to all of my questions though.
#24
Quote by deHufter
Don't think this is an answer to all of my questions though.


I'm not a walking encyclopedia of plainchant knowledge. If you want to know the characteristics of each mode then read up on it.

Skeleton, referring to the bare bones of the melody, minus any decoration.
#25
But how can you be certain something's not modal if you don't know all the characteristics?
I mean, if you can 'hear it', then certainly you can put into words what you are hearing right?
#26
all I want to say is IM ****ING HAPPY THERE'S A BJÖRK THREAD!!!!! THAT WOMAN IS A GODDESS!!!! BEST ARTIST EVER AND SEXIEST WOMAN EVER!!!
#27
Quote by griffRG7321

Because both of those songs are tonal.


That is not a useful answer.

In fact, it's a rather obnoxious one.

Why are they tonal?

What are the qualities of Gregorian chants which make them modal?

Why should I believe you rather than a respected and successful composer with degrees in music?

I would think these would be simple questions. The fact that people seem so reluctant to answer them makes me start to think I'm dealing with dogma here, rather than reason.
#28
90 percent of the things that guys says are obnoxious , you'd have better luck trying to get your answer by banging your head against a wall
#29
Quote by Izaak247
all I want to say is IM ****ING HAPPY THERE'S A BJÖRK THREAD!!!!! THAT WOMAN IS A GODDESS!!!! BEST ARTIST EVER AND SEXIEST WOMAN EVER!!!




Quote by HotspurJr
That is not a useful answer.

In fact, it's a rather obnoxious one.

Why are they tonal?

What are the qualities of Gregorian chants which make them modal?

Why should I believe you rather than a respected and successful composer with degrees in music?

I would think these would be simple questions. The fact that people seem so reluctant to answer them makes me start to think I'm dealing with dogma here, rather than reason.


This. Exactly this.
#30
Quote by HotspurJr


What are the qualities of Gregorian chants which make them modal?


Scroll up.

Quote by HotspurJr
Why should I believe you rather than a respected and successful composer with degrees in music?


Believe who you want, I couldn't give a monkeys. Referring to obviously tonal pieces as modal is nonsensical.

Quote by HotspurJr
Why are they tonal?


Are you being serious? Explain to me what you think tonality is.

Quote by nosuchmanasmole
90 percent of the things that guys says are obnoxious , you'd have better luck trying to get your answer by banging your head against a wall


That hurt my feelings bro, fo realz
Last edited by griffRG7321 at Sep 1, 2012,
#32
I thought the answer would be "it's not locrian because it doesn't resolve to a diminished chord". I'd listen to the song again to analyse it but I've never liked it.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#33
AWESOME. now i can't listen to bjork anymore...C locrian? REALLY?
Quote by Kevätuhri
Hail isn't too edgy for posts, posts are not edgy enough for Hail.


Quote by UseYourThumb
You win. I'm done here.
#34
Quote by Hail
AWESOME. now i can't listen to bjork anymore...C locrian? REALLY?


Tell me everything about gregorian chant bro, otherwise it's in C locrian because you can't prove it's not.
#36
Quote by griffRG7321
Tell me everything about gregorian chant bro, otherwise it's in C locrian because you can't prove it's not.


just flipped through the thread

jeez, i thought we finally had a grasp on the modes thing by now

even if it was modal, most modality is just ridiculously primitive tonality, and at that point, who really cares if it's modal or not.

even if it was atonal, who really cares? if it resolves to C, what quality is the C? Minor or Major? Minor, you say? well shit in my britches, you have a key. next

though i haven't sat and figured the song out honestly, even if i had, you know what notes are there, you know what it resolves to, you know what she sings and the bass plays, like, what else do you really need? what is there to grab from there?

if you want to analyze bjork, focus on her movement more than the tonality as a whole.
Quote by Kevätuhri
Hail isn't too edgy for posts, posts are not edgy enough for Hail.


Quote by UseYourThumb
You win. I'm done here.
Last edited by Hail at Sep 1, 2012,
#37
Quote by Hail


even if it was modal, most modality is just ridiculously primitive tonality, and at that point, who really cares if it's modal or not.

even if it was atonal, who really cares? if it resolves to C, what quality is the C? Minor or Major? Minor, you say? well shit in my britches, you have a key. next

though i haven't sat and figured the song out honestly, even if i had, you know what notes are there, you know what it resolves to, you know what she sings and the bass plays, like, what else do you really need? what is there to grab from there?


Sig worthy. You have a way with words that I do not possess.
Last edited by griffRG7321 at Sep 1, 2012,
#38
Quote by griffRG7321
Sig worthy. You have a way with words that I do not possess.


Yeah, and all you can do is go into this 'it's tonal man' rhyme again. You didn't answer my questions, you didn't answer Hotspurs. I'm getting the feeling you don't answer them because you can't.

Give some criteria, rules, conventions or whatever. Do you really read back your posts?
The only thing that you wrote was something like: 'Yeah, complex, this and this rule, and this and this melody'. It really sounds ridicilous, and every anti-mode cop here buys it. It's hilarious, or sad.

So, when is a piece in let's say phrygian?
Last edited by deHufter at Sep 1, 2012,
#39
Quote by deHufter
Yeah, and all you can do is go into this 'it's tonal man' rhyme again. You didn't answer my questions, you didn't answer Hotspurs. I'm getting the feeling you don't answer them because you can't.

Give some criteria, rules, conventions or whatever. Do you really read back your posts?
The only thing that you wrote was something like: 'Yeah, complex, this and this rule, and this and this melody'. It really sounds ridicilous, and every anti-mode cop here buys it. It's hilarious, or sad.


sorry, i know i'm probably not helping much either cause i've had a shit day, but this whole modal misconception on this site has really worn down the patience of a lot of people here.

same as when someone asks what scale gives a "middle-eastern" feel - there's only so many times you can say "scales don't mean diddly squat outside of suggesting tonality" before you go to stab yourself in the eye with a fork

and i know i'm not griff, but i personally go out of my way to avoid taking modes questions and explanations seriously cause they really just don't matter, analytically or practically, even after the loads of clarifications involved in "just because it has a b2, b3, b6, and b7 doesn't mean it's in phrygian" that people fall into when the shred-heads post up faux-music-theory adlibs on their DVDs and youtube vids
Quote by Kevätuhri
Hail isn't too edgy for posts, posts are not edgy enough for Hail.


Quote by UseYourThumb
You win. I'm done here.
#40
Quote by Hail
sorry, i know i'm probably not helping much either cause i've had a shit day, but this whole modal misconception on this site has really worn down the patience of a lot of people here.

same as when someone asks what scale gives a "middle-eastern" feel - there's only so many times you can say "scales don't mean diddly squat outside of suggesting tonality" before you go to stab yourself in the eye with a fork

and i know i'm not griff, but i personally go out of my way to avoid taking modes questions and explanations seriously cause they really just don't matter, analytically or practically, even after the loads of clarifications involved in "just because it has a b2, b3, b6, and b7 doesn't mean it's in phrygian" that people fall into when the shred-heads post up faux-music-theory adlibs on their DVDs and youtube vids


I see what you are saying. But do you also get that some people are tired of 'you mentioned modes, so you are a ****tard'? I mean, if it doesn't matter that much like you said, why does it matter to think something's locrian when all the notes are:
C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb? No, it's just C minor and the Db is an accidental. Oh wait, the Gb is an accidental too. Like that you can analyze anything to the point it's just a major or minor with accidentals. So my question is a genuine one:

What makes a mode a mode?
Page 1 of 3