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#1
I've been playing guitar for 3 years.I only know the minor pentatonic but I still have problems with the fourth and fifth position when improvising.Few days ago i learned the Aeolian (Natural minor) and Lydian scale and i improvisided with a backing track for each scale and they worked pretty well.I only learned the first position.What scale should i learn next or should i learn every position first and then move on?
#3
The vast majority of songs in any genre do not deviate from major, minor and blues scales. The trick is learning how to use them.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#4
Scales don't make music, intervals do. Learn how your intervals sound and the musicality of your improv will begin to get better. Scales are only good for showing where the notes lay on the fretboard. Always listen.
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#5
Quote by J-Dawg158
Scales don't make music, intervals do.

So do the police.

(woo woo woo)
But boys will be boys and girls have those eyes
that'll cut you to ribbons, sometimes
and all you can do is just wait by the moon
and bleed if it's what she says you ought to do
#6
Quote by Hydra150
So do the police.

(woo woo woo)



The Who?
I'm an
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I'm Good at Math
#7
It doesn't quite have the same tone when you change the lyrics to be about music composition though...
But boys will be boys and girls have those eyes
that'll cut you to ribbons, sometimes
and all you can do is just wait by the moon
and bleed if it's what she says you ought to do
Last edited by Hydra150 at Sep 25, 2012,
#8
If you play the C major scale but start and end at the B notes thats a diminished pattern.
Play A minor but keep M7th G# thats the harmonic minor scale.

small variations change the scale. Patterns is not what you seek, but knowledge Kauna, you seek knowledge.
#9
Quote by metalmetalhead
If you play the C major scale but start and end at the B notes thats a diminished pattern.


If you play that in the key of C major it's just the C major scale. If it was in the key of B major, it would simply function as an ugly use of accidentals to the B major scale. Knowing the notes is half the battle. The other half is harmonic context.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#10
Quote by Hydra150
It doesn't quite have the same tone when you change the lyrics to be about music composition though...


Ah! Apparently I'm lagging behind on my pop culture. I thought you meant the band The Police, hence my intended pun of The Who.
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#11
The word "position" here is your problem. Learning your scales as patterns on a fretboard is a beginner tool. Learn the scales you already know as a series of intervals, not box patterns. I can tell you the only box pattern I've ever learned was the minor pentatonic shape as a beginner, yet I can play pretty much an scale you throw at me anywhere on the neck. You don't truly understand a scale until you're thinking about intervals and not shapes. And once you understand a few of them well enough, you'll be able to write entire awesome songs without the thought of a scale ever crossing your mind.
#12
Quote by AlanHB
If you play that in the key of C major it's just the C major scale. If it was in the key of B major, it would simply function as an ugly use of accidentals to the B major scale. Knowing the notes is half the battle. The other half is harmonic context.


ok so what are the notes in the B diminished scale?

How can these notes relate to the C major scale?
#13
Quote by metalmetalhead
ok so what are the notes in the B diminished scale?

Depends if it's W-H of H-W.
#14
Quote by metalmetalhead
ok so what are the notes in the B diminished scale?

How can these notes relate to the C major scale?


Therein lies your misunderstanding of what Alan is trying to say. He's not comparing the scales, he's talking about the key. If you play the B Locrian mode (I assume that's what you meant by B diminished scale since earlier you described starting C major on B as diminished. B diminished is not the same as B Locrian.) in the key of C major then it isn't B Locrian; it is C major.

In order for it to be B Locrian then the key must be B, in which case you will be hard-pressed to keep it from either: resolving to a different key; or differing from B minor/major. Like he said in his post, harmonic context.
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Last edited by J-Dawg158 at Sep 25, 2012,
#15
Quote by J-Dawg158
Therein lies your misunderstanding of what Alan is trying to say. He's not comparing the scales, he's talking about the key. If you play the B Locrian mode (I assume that's what you meant by B diminished scale since earlier you described starting C major on B as diminished. B diminished is not the same as B Locrian.) in the key of C major then it isn't B Locrian; it is C major.

In order for it to be B Locrian then the key must be B, in which case you will be hard-pressed to keep it from either: resolving to a different key; or differing from B minor/major. Like he said in his post, harmonic context.


I understood. alan was diving into context babble. But Kauna asked for more scales. I simply pointed out the dimished pattern from the major scale...basicly saying the scales are already there. it is not scales you seek but knowledge. and I did it Without bringing up modes...

It takes time to learn this stuff, we are talking about context we are learning scales and patterns.

they got diagrams of 5 pentatonic positions If you take the C major scale and play that same scale starting from A then the C then the D then the E then the G you have your 5 positions. thats pretty much what I'm saying

I dont think you count F because it would to much like E for the pentatonic side of things.?

because im not into modes we arent talkin about modal learning here this is simply fretboard and scale navigation

once you start learning how to jam you discover context and find new sounds

alan is clearly right if your playing B dim in the key of CM or Am your really playing in CM or Am.

BUT on the other hand in the key of C maj/Aminor B is the diminished note of the scale so it naturally is going to have a darker tone almost diminished sounding but within key like the harmonic minor scale!!! I'm setting records as we speak.

and this stuff goes right into harmony and how to harmonize your chords within the scale.
#16
Quote by metalmetalhead
...But Kauna asked for more scales. I simply pointed out the dimished pattern from the major scale...

But boys will be boys and girls have those eyes
that'll cut you to ribbons, sometimes
and all you can do is just wait by the moon
and bleed if it's what she says you ought to do
#18
Quote by metalmetalhead

BUT on the other hand in the key of C maj/Aminor B is the diminished note of the scale so it naturally is going to have a darker tone almost diminished sounding but within key like the harmonic minor scale!!!


Say what?

A note can't be "diminished."

There's nothing diminished sounding about a major seventh interval, or the role the major 7th plays in a major context. There's also nothing diminished sounding about the major second in a minor context.
#19
But boys will be boys and girls have those eyes
that'll cut you to ribbons, sometimes
and all you can do is just wait by the moon
and bleed if it's what she says you ought to do
Last edited by Hydra150 at Sep 25, 2012,
#21
holy ****
Quote by metalmetalhead
I understood. alan was diving into context babble. But Kauna asked for more scales. I simply pointed out the dimished pattern from the major scale...basicly saying the scales are already there. it is not scales you seek but knowledge. and I did it Without bringing up modes...

you realize that "context babble" is significantly more useful than any of the diarrhea you're spewing forth into this thread, because randomly naming scales (especially when you say that b-c-d-e-f-g-a-b is a diminished scale) provides absolutely nothing of value
Quote by metalmetalhead
alan is clearly right if your playing B dim in the key of CM or Am your really playing in CM or Am.

why do you keep referring to this as "b dim", since you're still wrong
Quote by metalmetalhead
BUT on the other hand in the key of C maj/Aminor B is the diminished note of the scale so it naturally is going to have a darker tone almost diminished sounding but within key like the harmonic minor scale!!!

news flash: there's no "diminished note of the scale"

yes there's a diminished triad built from it, but the note itself isn't diminished and all this stupid shit you're saying about "b dim" is comical

it's not naturally going to "have a darker tone", because if you think that a b played over a g major chord is going to sound the same as a b played over a Bm7b5 simply because "it's the diminished note", you're incapable of being further from the truth

news flash 2: the reason for this is the "context babble" you are so adamantly ignoring
#22
The only "scales" that you should learn are the following:

Major Scale (and Major Pentatonic. It's also where all keys/scales are derived from)
Minor Scale (and Minor Pentatonic)
Harmonic Minor (Minor with a Major 7th instead of a Minor 7th interval)

Every other "scale" that you come across will be based off of the above ones with different accidentals. Most of the MT regulars will tell you think in keys (and accidentals) as opposed to scales. I would suggest just learning the basic on why/how it sounds good, then begin to think in keys.
Skip the username, call me Billy
Last edited by aerosmithfan95 at Sep 25, 2012,
#25
I play by ear and from the sounds of it B in relation to C has a diminished sound to it, But ONLY IN CONTEXT. In context each sound is unique in relation to the other.

what does diminished mean anyway? to distort?

Just cause your music teacher doesn't agree, doesn't mean I have to. hell I'm in it for the music and joy of playing anyway. Im aloud to think outside of the box

unorthodox It might seem but its really all the same except I dont worry about that dumb shit you call important. Infact just save it for the ones that are asking those kind of questions.

The B diminished scale has the same notes as C major.
#26
reiterating for emphasis:
Quote by :-D
you realize that "context babble" is significantly more useful than any of the diarrhea you're spewing forth into this thread

Quote by metalmetalhead
I play by ear and from the sounds of it B in relation to C has a diminished sound to it, But ONLY IN CONTEXT. In context each sound is unique in relation to the other.

the sound of a b in relation to c what? a c major chord? the note c? again, context is important, as you said, so just saying "b in relation to c has a diminished sound" is not only vague, but completely incorrect

i happen to have a very good ear as well, but i also have the advantage of knowing what i'm talking about rather than insisting i'm correct because i've convinced myself my approach to music is "thinking outside the box" rather than a fallacious distortion of everything that is correct tailored to suit my own ego
Quote by metalmetalhead
what does diminished mean anyway? to distort?

i'd like to take a moment here to point out that you're arguing about certain things "being diminished" or "being the diminished note in a scale" and afterward asking for the definition of the very term that's at the crux of your bullshit

how's that work exactly
Quote by metalmetalhead
Just cause your music teacher doesn't agree, doesn't mean I have to. hell I'm in it for the music and joy of playing anyway.

what music teacher? there's right and there's wrong. you happen to be the latter.

again, "in it for the joy of playing" is another thing you're telling yourself in an attempt to backtrack and refuse to admit that everything you're vomiting forth here is incorrect and completely misinformed - having fun and being correct are not mutually exclusive, you should try both sometime
Quote by metalmetalhead
unorthodox It might seem but its really all the same except I dont worry about that dumb shit you call important.

the only "dumb shit" you're concerned about is, well, absolutely everything you're saying

it's not "all the same", because i can hear something the same way as you and actually know what it is
Quote by metalmetalhead
The B diminished scale has the same notes as C major.

once again you have no idea what you're talking about, and you need to stop being insistent on this subject
#27
But boys will be boys and girls have those eyes
that'll cut you to ribbons, sometimes
and all you can do is just wait by the moon
and bleed if it's what she says you ought to do
#28
Quote by metalmetalhead

The B diminished scale has the same notes as C major.

Which one?

B half-whole:
B, C, D, Eb, F, Gb, Ab, A

B whole-half:
B, C#, D, E, F, G, Ab, Bb


hint: you're wrong either way

...modes and scales are still useless.


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Last edited by Xiaoxi at Sep 25, 2012,
#29
Quote by metalmetalhead
I play by ear and from the sounds of it B in relation to C has a diminished sound to it, But ONLY IN CONTEXT. In context each sound is unique in relation to the other.

what does diminished mean anyway? to distort?

Just cause your music teacher doesn't agree, doesn't mean I have to. hell I'm in it for the music and joy of playing anyway. Im aloud to think outside of the box

unorthodox It might seem but its really all the same except I dont worry about that dumb shit you call important. Infact just save it for the ones that are asking those kind of questions.

The B diminished scale has the same notes as C major.



Oh God, if I ran a music forum, this kind of crap would get people banned.
#30
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octatonic_scale

I know wikapedia is not the best source all the time, but i think it works here.
Metalhead, i think that (BEFORE ANYONE TRIES TO CUT MY THROAT OUT AND MAKE ME FEEL BAD ABOUT MYSELF, PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT I KNOW WHAT I AM ABOUT TO TALK ABOTU IS A LITTLE MOOT, BUT I AM JUST TRYING TO CLEAR THE AIR) you're getting it confused with the modern Locrian mode, which has the same notes in B and C major does.
However (TO THE TS), the modes don't really matter, i think that your best bet for getting sounds that you want is to stop thinking it terms of scales. Start singing solfeggi and getting an ear for chords and then you can write based purely off sound and not have to worry about anything else

Edit: PLEASE DON'T MURDER ME FOR THIS
Last edited by macashmack at Sep 25, 2012,
#31
i can't tell if i was smart and stayed out of this thread or if i said something so dumb it got deleted

this is becoming a bit of a trend
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#32
Quote by Hail
i can't tell if i was smart and stayed out of this thread or if i said something so dumb it got deleted

this is becoming a bit of a trend


YOU WERE SMART!!!
#33
Quote by GoldenGuitar
YOU WERE SMART!!!

..and it got deleted....judging by this thread!
Quote by AlanHB
It's the same as all other harmony. Surround yourself with skulls and candles if it helps.
#34
^
Duh. That was dumb. Oh well.... it'll get....deleted...? Or....NOT..?

<<cue spooky music and fade to black>>
Quote by AlanHB
It's the same as all other harmony. Surround yourself with skulls and candles if it helps.
#35
Honestly its threads like this that make me feel comfortable with not knowing modes, but posting enough stuff in MT and bandleading to not get me banned for all my shit in the pit.

Life's good.
#37
Quote by metalmetalhead
I play by ear and from the sounds of it B in relation to C has a diminished sound to it, But ONLY IN CONTEXT. In context each sound is unique in relation to the other.

what does diminished mean anyway? to distort?

Just cause your music teacher doesn't agree, doesn't mean I have to. hell I'm in it for the music and joy of playing anyway. Im aloud to think outside of the box

unorthodox It might seem but its really all the same except I dont worry about that dumb shit you call important. Infact just save it for the ones that are asking those kind of questions.

The B diminished scale has the same notes as C major.


are you high bro?

diminished in the most basic sense refers to symmetrical minor thirds.

the "diminished scale" HW/WH is not...even close to Cmajor.

The diminished scale is two dim7's a whole step away from each...there isn't even a dim7 in the major scale.

B C# D E F G Ab Bb
C D E F G A B C

one of these things is not liek the other.
Last edited by chronowarp at Sep 26, 2012,
#38
Quote by Xiaoxi
Which one?

B half-whole:
B, C, D, Eb, F, Gb, Ab, A

B whole-half:
B, C#, D, E, F, G, Ab, Bb


hint: you're wrong either way


oh I thought they were the same my mistake.

never the less 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7 1, still have the diminished qualities the b3 and b5. so next to locran what diatonic scale would that be?

b5 is known as a diminished 5th isnt it? because it was perfect, the 4th becomes augmented. I mistaking said diminished note. your right theres no such thing

I played a piano and the temperament is based around the C major scale..so tell me why B Minor has such a darker tone while playing in context of C major or Amin. But ya know it took my ears a few years aswell so don't beat yourself up if you cant tell the difference

I dont think this is as near as a big deal to me as it is to you. I apologize for offending any of you.
#39
Quote by metalmetalhead
I played a piano and the temperament is based around the C major scale..so tell me why B Minor has such a darker tone while playing in context of C major or Amin.


If by "context" you mean "key", you would be employing C# and F# accidentals in addition to the C major or A minor scales by virtue of using the notes of the B minor scale in one of those two keys. Depending on the key the accidentals will function differently. Whether is sounds "dark" or not is up to you.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#40
Quote by metalmetalhead


I played a piano and the temperament is based around the C major scale


Dude, words mean things.

The piano's temperament is NOT based another the C major scale. It is an equal-tempered instrument.

Please don't use words that you don't understand in an attempt to sound smarter. It makes you sound like an idiot. The irony of course is that temperament is explained above, and you got all snooty claiming that you understood it.


..so tell me why B Minor has such a darker tone while playing in context of C major or Amin.


It doesn't. And your snide comment that your ears are so well-trained that you can hear it is laughable.

I dont think this is as near as a big deal to me as it is to you. .


Funny, you keep posting AS IF it were a big deal to you. You've certainly put a lot of words in on the topic. It also evidently means enough to you that you feel compelled to make up definitions for words to fit your meanings.
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