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explosion231
Registered User
Join date: Jan 2010
122 IQ
#1
Hey guys, can someone give me advice on playing fast?? I've been playing for 4 years now, and i never quite liked shredding and stuff, but now i've been trying to use it...i can play some fast stuff, like the solo of master of puppets or some parts of sweet child oh mine...But when i start to shred, it sounds really sloppy and changing between the strings with my right hand its very dficult.

Thanks for the help guys, Apreciate it
Flibo
I like dissonance.
Join date: Aug 2007
690 IQ
#2
Practise slowly with a good technique. If you try to play too fast you'll just teach your hands bad habits and they're hard to get out of. Focus on moving your fingers as little as possible (keep them close to the fingerboard) and use a metronome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNhhyrnINIU <-- Videos by this guy are good and have helped me.

Remember that you won't learn to shred overnight, you'll need months, even years, of patient practice.
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ZealXarah
Registered User
Join date: Jan 2009
15 IQ
#3
I use a warm up i saw in a joe satrian video which worked really well for me. run up four semi tones on the low string using all four fingers then do the same on the higher strings on the same frets. Do this excercise starting at the first fret and continue forward and reverse and then repeat on the second, then the third all the way up to or beyond the twelfth..... too complicated to explain i think its one of these videos. (my phone wont load em)

m.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&hl=en&client=mv-google&v=o-H72ECeZBs

m.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&hl=en&client=mv-google&v=JNDyI5b3Fh8
Hail
i'm a mean bully
Join date: Jan 2010
431 IQ
#4
remember that playing fast is nothing but smoking mirrors unless you have a proper grasp on the fundamentals and are melodic in your approach to an idea rather than masturbatory for the sake of feigning inspiration.
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chronowarp
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Join date: Feb 2012
43 IQ
#5
You should definitely start slow with a metronome until you can really get a disciplined, consistent picking technique.

At that point there isn't a lot of harm in cranking the speed up and simply TRYING to play fast. A lot of issues happen when you try to linearly increase speed, because you will find the slower you play the less economical you will be, and guess what happens when you speed it up incrementally? You don't really deal with economizing your picking hand movements...you gotta force yourself into that barrier of uncomfortable shit to be able to hone the skill.

Try incorporate alternate picking on one note at high speed or with very repetitive patterns on one string, just to begin to feel how everything should be working at a higher speed.
Hail
i'm a mean bully
Join date: Jan 2010
431 IQ
#6
Quote by chronowarp
You should definitely start slow with a metronome until you can really get a disciplined, consistent picking technique.

At that point there isn't a lot of harm in cranking the speed up and simply TRYING to play fast. A lot of issues happen when you try to linearly increase speed, because you will find the slower you play the less economical you will be, and guess what happens when you speed it up incrementally? You don't really deal with economizing your picking hand movements...you gotta force yourself into that barrier of uncomfortable shit to be able to hone the skill.

Try incorporate alternate picking on one note at high speed or with very repetitive patterns on one string, just to begin to feel how everything should be working at a higher speed.


the whole point of slowing down is to play economically and observe your technique, and the primary problem with the brick-wall Lane method is that you tend to non-economical movements and bad habits when you don't approach with a metronome

...
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chronowarp
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Join date: Feb 2012
43 IQ
#7
Quote by Hail
the whole point of slowing down is to play economically and observe your technique, and the primary problem with the brick-wall Lane method is that you tend to non-economical movements and bad habits when you don't approach with a metronome

...

Not true.

If you have the fundamentals down there it's not productive to waste time running patterns from 60 bpm up to 210. You'll hit a threshold you won't be able to pass, because your body and mind just aren't able to operate at that speed - it's an entirely different process.

Tom Hess has plenty of videos about this.

Don't get me wrong. If you haven't developed your technique at all then you really do need to start slow with a metronome, but once you have engrained the basic mechanics into your muscle memory...then that approach is not going to be as fruitful as pushing yourself into the speed you need/want to be at and fleshing it out from there.
Last edited by chronowarp at Sep 27, 2012,
vince1991
The pube in your yogurt
Join date: Aug 2011
84 IQ
#8
don't just randomly alternate pick stuff. pay attention to what your picking hand is doing. when you change to a thinner string, use a downstroke on the last note of the previous string. when going to a thicker string, use an upstroke on the last note of the current string.

this means that sometimes you'll have to start with an upstroke, sometimes not and sometimes use 2 up or downstrokes after each other. this is a bitch to get used to but once you get it it will happen naturally.

i used to alternate pick by simply doing 'down up down up' all the time and it was way more sloppy than with this technique.
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Hail
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#10
Quote by chronowarp


Tom Hess has plenty of videos about this.


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chronowarp
Registered User
Join date: Feb 2012
43 IQ
#11
Quote by Hail

mmm, no, not really.

tell you what,
show me a video of you playing fast
and I'll show you one of mine, and we can use that as a benchmark for deliberating on which method is more effective in the long run.

I have a feeling you can't play fast at all.
Last edited by chronowarp at Sep 27, 2012,
vince1991
The pube in your yogurt
Join date: Aug 2011
84 IQ
#12
Quote by chronowarp
Interesting. I'll have give that a whirl...though I think consistently would be a bit better.



this his how my teacher taught me. i haven't got it down completely but i definitely feel it makes the string changes go more fluently and it sounds less sloppy. and the pick hits less unwanted strings. let us know how it went for you please
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Hail
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#13
Quote by chronowarp
mmm, no, not really.

tell you what,
show me a video of you playing fast
and I'll show you one of mine, and we can use that as a benchmark for deliberating on which method is more effective in the long run.

I have a feeling you can't play fast at all.


i don't play guitar

HAHAHAHA
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vince1991
The pube in your yogurt
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#14
then gtfo and stop confusing this young axe-master man :/
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chronowarp
Registered User
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43 IQ
#15
Quote by Hail
i don't play guitar

HAHAHAHA

so...you're trying to provide advice to somebody on the mechanics of building technique on an instrument you can't even play.

interesting.
Hail
i'm a mean bully
Join date: Jan 2010
431 IQ
#16
remember that playing fast is nothing but smoking mirrors unless you have a proper grasp on the fundamentals and are melodic in your approach to an idea rather than masturbatory for the sake of feigning inspiration.


music advice is universal, and you can find tons of posts from people far more qualified than you or i around here and GT concerning the mechanics of the lane-rush method. FP in particular had a really good explanation concerning the issues involved in using speed block training scarcely and only when you've reached a level where the metronome won't cut it. something tells me TS isn't at this point if he has to ask the question in the first place.

i could show you my 32nd note 4-finger rolls and it wouldn't do anything but make me look like an asshole considering we're in a music theory forum where speed is far less important to anyone compared to proper technique to portray a strong sense of musicality.
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chronowarp
Registered User
Join date: Feb 2012
43 IQ
#17
Quote by Hail
music advice is universal, and you can find tons of posts from people far more qualified than you or i around here and GT concerning the mechanics of the lane-rush method. FP in particular had a really good explanation concerning the issues involved in using speed block training scarcely and only when you've reached a level where the metronome won't cut it. something tells me TS isn't at this point if he has to ask the question in the first place.

i could show you my 32nd note 4-finger rolls and it wouldn't do anything but make me look like an asshole considering we're in a music theory forum where speed is far less important to anyone compared to proper technique to portray a strong sense of musicality.

its really...not. "musical advice" isn't the same as instrument specific technique...

I'd love to see some solid refutation of the method that someone like tom hess endorses (Shit player, immaculate technique) and demonstrates with success. come at me?
Last edited by chronowarp at Sep 27, 2012,
Slashiepie
Banged
Join date: Apr 2011
492 IQ
#18
Quote by chronowarp
its really...not. "musical advice" isn't the same as instrument specific technique...

I'd love to see some solid refutation of the method that someone like tom hess endorses (Shit player, immaculate technique) and demonstrates with success. come at me?


If you paid Tom Hess to mistify all the well known basic principles for you, shroud them in mystery, add stupid claims about how doing sth everyday damages your progress and steve jobing you into how he just doesnt accept anyone into his super secret privileged master jackson circle, then be our guest and believe his methods,after all they are backed up by poorly made excel graphics!( with no actal data lol) (his money making scams seem insanely effective though, the mofo charges monthly fees for excel sheets and a timer)

Tom Hess is a great player but no, he has no perfect technique and his music is boring as hell.
**** him and his marketing.
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Last edited by Slashiepie at Sep 27, 2012,
chronowarp
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43 IQ
#19
Quote by Slashiepie
If you paid Tom Hess to mistify all the well known basic principles for you shroud them in mystery and then add stupid claims like that stupid shit about how doing sth everyday damages your progress, then be our guest and believe his methods, they are backed up by poorly made excel graphics! (his money making scams are insanely effective though, the mofo charges monthly fees for excel sheets and a timer)

Tom Hess is a great player but he has no perfect technique and his music is boring as hell.
**** him and his marketing.

Agreed.

But now explain to me why his method is not correct, and how he does not have precise picking technique. Go!

fyi: i dont need tom hess' lessons, nor at this point in my development would i ever hire a teacher to work on technique. i have a degree in performance and more than aware of my own technical limitations and how to conquer issues i run into in my musical endeavors.

so it's not an endorsement or in an investment on part, i'm simply offering a single example of a player that has immaculate technique and teaches a method that is congruous with what I offered the OP. start slow, yes. use a metronome, yes. but you also need to constantly engage yourself at a high speed so that your body can actually adapt to the adjustments that need to be made...
Last edited by chronowarp at Sep 27, 2012,
Slashiepie
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Join date: Apr 2011
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#20
Quote by chronowarp
Agreed.

But now explain to me why his method is not correct, and how he does not have precise picking technique. Go!


I dont have much of a problem with your approach, if you mean Shawn Lane speed up clean it up later, i have a problem with Tom Hess being mentioned as a source. (and he does not have many fans in these forums, reason for the pic)

Anyways there is no Scientific data to compare methods, but on the right hands and with the right mindset both will work. Shawn Lanes technique is easier to get wrong though and i would class it as more advanced and harder to pull off correctly.

Going back to even slower speeds usually saves you the hassle of having the need to ogo back and rework bad habits, and yeah it may blow minds but it ends up increasing your overall speed treshold.

Whatever works, i would never suggest anyone who has no perfect basics and good understanding of technique to do what Shawn did. Most technique issues i see is because peoplejust had to speed up and clean it up later, the second part just didnt happen, nevertheless anything is still valid.

Sidenote: We need athread about modes sodomized by Tom Hess.
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Last edited by Slashiepie at Sep 27, 2012,
Hail
i'm a mean bully
Join date: Jan 2010
431 IQ
#21
i don't know why you jumped on hess when i already name-drop'd lane lol

you could easily say lane had an otherworldly level of technical and musical prowess, and there's no contesting that, but i'm not gonna spend an hour writing an essay about how hess isn't the best thing under the sun

i haven't paid $35 a week or whatever it is to know hess's method, but if he suggests to use speed-block method practice without having spent several months or years working at individual techniques over time and constantly berating technical aspects of your playing, he's dumber than i thought. you even conceded that you shouldn't rush if you don't have a solid fundamental understanding, but at that level, you shouldn't be asking on a tablature music theory forum unless you're just a crappy player looking for a shortcut.
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chronowarp
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43 IQ
#22
Quote by Slashiepie
I dont have much of a problem with your approach, if you mean Shawn Lane speed up clean it up later, i have a problem with Tom Hess being mentioned as a source.

Anyways there is no Scientific data to compare methods, but on the right hands and with the right mindset both will work. Shawn Lanes technique is easier to get wrong though and i would class tit as more advanced and harder to pull off correctly.

Going back to even slower speeds usually saves you the hassle of having the need to ogo back and rework bad habits, and yeah it may blow minds but it ends up increasing your overall speed treshold.

Whatever works

im not even really advocating slop it then fix it. I'm saying a time will come if you only practice speed through linear increases of BPM on a metronome, then you're going to hit a brick wall hard.

you can lessen that struggle by constantly engaging yourself at higher speeds so your body learns how to react to the subtle adjustments you need to make mentally & physically to accommodate pulling it off.
chronowarp
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Join date: Feb 2012
43 IQ
#23
Quote by Hail
i don't know why you jumped on hess when i already name-drop'd lane lol

you could easily say lane had an otherworldly level of technical and musical prowess, and there's no contesting that, but i'm not gonna spend an hour writing an essay about how hess isn't the best thing under the sun

i haven't paid $35 a week or whatever it is to know hess's method, but if he suggests to use speed-block method practice without having spent several months or years working at individual techniques over time and constantly berating technical aspects of your playing, he's dumber than i thought. you even conceded that you shouldn't rush if you don't have a solid fundamental understanding, but at that level, you shouldn't be asking on a tablature music theory forum unless you're just a crappy player looking for a shortcut.

i didnt "concede" that...i included that in my original post, bro.
Hail
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#24
i miss liam
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chronowarp
Registered User
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#25
when did everyone here become so confrontational and overly concerned about being right, rather than just dispensing reasonable advice to people? ffs.
technical death
MAIN TANK
Join date: Mar 2009
789 IQ
#28
Hey.

If you want to see a pretty awesome guide on how to play fast with precision then click the guide in my sig.

I came across it a long time ago and it has helped me out TONS in my own playing. I think it will help you out as well so I think you should definitely give it a try.

There are some exercises on it that are great for practicing. There are also tons of videos on youtube by a guy (I forget his name though since its been a while) who teaches exercises and techniques on playing faster.

Good luck!
dumbface12
They call me Bubbles
Join date: May 2007
156 IQ
#29
Going back to what the TS was asking speed is a byproduct of playing cleanly. You can try this method: play what you're trying to play slow and not to a metronome (concentrate on playing each note cleanly and getting the muscle memory), then after a week or so try playing to a metronome slowly, then as you get better speed up the metronome. Unfortunatly this does take awhile but effective for me at least.

As for Tom Hess
Yeah I'm that guy who says I'm right
but more than likely is wrong

It happens doesn't it?
metalmetalhead
Panterica
Join date: May 2007
517 IQ
#31
start with slow easy songs you'll enjoy. play more by ear. if its hard you need the practice.

If you get bored and you force yourself to do mindless practicing. That kinda stuff doesnt help you improve. you must stay focused even if its just for 15 to 20 min thats better then a hour of mindless non sense.

Its ok to push yourself see what you can do. Id practice slow a whole day and try it the next day give your mind rest.

you must train your muscles to remember these movements. this is called muscle memory, this is why you practice slow.
Slashiepie
Banged
Join date: Apr 2011
492 IQ
#32
Ok here is the real secret to playing fast: Play modes, lots of them, insanely fast phrygian runs, light speed mixolydian songs, dorian legato. Set the metronome to 260 and play as fast as you can! tense up if you need it, ignore saying in time its overrated and it has no soul, sacrifice acuraccy and cleanliness for the time being Or you will risk playing forom your soul like Jimmy, mistakes happen! repeat them until they dissapear!

i suggest you also get the super duper hardcore extra effective practice planer and tracker from Tom Hess, its only 99,99 bucks a month ( reduced to 69,99 this month and reduced to 19,99 just today because youre the 100.000.000 subscriber) it will improve your playing insanely! excel sheets not included. There is tons of testimonials from ex meth addicts and brutal sweepers.

While we are at it **** music theory, learn scales all, the more the better, but dont learn notes, they are a waste of time, music is all,about shapes.

**** coffe, theres nothing like the smell of trolling in the morning.
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Last edited by Slashiepie at Sep 28, 2012,
91RG350
At least Microsoft cared
Join date: May 2011
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#33
Quote by chronowarp
.... I'm saying a time will come if you only practice speed through linear increases of BPM on a metronome, then you're going to hit a brick wall hard....

mmm...not so sure about that...if someone had the time and patience to play cleanly...and was able to play cleanly as fast as a metronome could possibly go...they'd be playing pretty freakin fast....

Because fast is what its all about, right?

Maybe if we got Lane and Hess to measure each others fastness then this whole question could be solved

On a side note...Ive been thinking of launching a weather baloon with a camera and putting it on YouTube. I might attach a metronome instead of a Lego minifig..... hmmmm..... it'd go faster as gravity got less, no? Assuming its an old school mechanical metronome.....
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Last edited by 91RG350 at Sep 28, 2012,
Anon17
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#34
I'd like to point out to the TS that the vast, vast majority of people on this forum who've learnt good (and as a byproduct fast) technique have used the "start slow, play relaxed and economically and slowly speed up" method. Doing a bit of playing above the speed you can is okay sometimes to remove mental blocks, but doing it all the time seems like a backwards approach because at that speed you can't improve your muscle memory so you can't improve your technique. All you can do is get your brain used to the speed - This is important, yes, but you still need the technique (which you need to practice slowly) to back it up else you'll be playing absolute shite at 200bpm or whatever.
metalmetalhead
Panterica
Join date: May 2007
517 IQ
#35
there were fast pickers, sweepers, and legato before hess or lane. I dont know much about either of them except whatever freebie videos are on youtube.

Something hess said that Ill always remember is. most guitar players myself included focus on one thing. weather it be a fast chromatic riff or a sweep. And you practice this one technique because its the riff you want to learn.. you practice and practice only to find hardly any improvements.

one of mine was the solo in bat country the chromatic trills at the end back and fourth. I just practiced picking chromatics. Its not an incorrect approach but I tell ya I made very little improvements picking chromatics. (not where I wanted the improvements to be anyway). my finger independence improved the most.

bottom line is all the techniques go hand in hand and just focusing on perfecting 1 thing at a time is not a good idea.

or you could do like john patrucie from dream theater and have and filing cabinet with all your practice date stored. equally practicing everything thats a real routine.
Hail
i'm a mean bully
Join date: Jan 2010
431 IQ
#36
Quote by Anon17
I'd like to point out to the TS that the vast, vast majority of people on this forum who've learnt good (and as a byproduct fast) technique have used the "start slow, play relaxed and economically and slowly speed up" method. Doing a bit of playing above the speed you can is okay sometimes to remove mental blocks, but doing it all the time seems like a backwards approach because at that speed you can't improve your muscle memory so you can't improve your technique. All you can do is get your brain used to the speed - This is important, yes, but you still need the technique (which you need to practice slowly) to back it up else you'll be playing absolute shite at 200bpm or whatever.


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jsantos
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Join date: Oct 2008
388 IQ
#37
Quote by chronowarp
You should definitely start slow with a metronome until you can really get a disciplined, consistent picking technique.

At that point there isn't a lot of harm in cranking the speed up and simply TRYING to play fast. A lot of issues happen when you try to linearly increase speed, because you will find the slower you play the less economical you will be, and guess what happens when you speed it up incrementally? You don't really deal with economizing your picking hand movements...you gotta force yourself into that barrier of uncomfortable shit to be able to hone the skill.

Try incorporate alternate picking on one note at high speed or with very repetitive patterns on one string, just to begin to feel how everything should be working at a higher speed.


I remember starting with alternate picking my scales and modes 16th notes on 65bpms. It was painful as hell but it forced me to listen and clean up my right hand technique. It took me about 2 years of incrementing speed up to 160bpms. That's about where I can play comfortably and clean on 16th notes (alternate picking). You can say that 160bpms is my threshold or barrier. I can do up to like 200bpms but in short sprints lol. But yeah, I understand what you say about pushing the boundaries once in a while.
jsantos
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#39
Quote by chronowarp
I think anyone making an authoritative claim about technique should post an accompanying video of them playing.


Wow, was this directed to me?
chronowarp
Registered User
Join date: Feb 2012
43 IQ
#40
Just in general.
Everyone seems to be an expert on what works and what doesn't, yet I have a feeling most of the people here couldn't play fast & clean if they had a gun to their head.

That's the nature of the internet, though. It'd be a lot more fruitful for the OP, because then he'd know whose advice to take seriously.