'France budget: Top 10% of earners to see taxes rise' Do YOU support taxing the rich?

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#1
French Prime Minister Jean-Marc Ayrault has said that nine out of 10 citizens will not see their income taxes rise in the new budget.

He has confirmed that there is to be a new 75% tax rate for people earning more than 1m euros (£800,000; $1.3m) a year.

He has not yet detailed how much taxes will rise for the rest of the top 10%.

It is one of the key policies in what he called "a courageous, responsible budget - a budget of conquest".

The government's priorities were young people, training and cutting 10bn euros from its spending, he said. This would demand an effort but would be fair, he added.
'Fighting budget'

Official figures on Friday showed that French public debt had hit 91% of GDP between April and June this year.

It was 89.3% at the end of March, which was still well above the eurozone limit of 60%.

Mr Ayrault pointed out that debt had grown by 30% of GDP in the past five years.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19754016

Tax rises for the rich, yay or nay? Is it beneficial for the people, or should rich people be given leeway for helping the economy in their way? Are you with the socialists in France, or are you more about Ayn Rand's philosophies?

Personally I'm for taxing the rich proportionally, but not overdoing it. I don't think overtaxing people is going to make them stay, they'll just move abroad.

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#2
Raising taxes for the rich by a couple of percent isn't going to hurt them. It's definitely a lot better than the wage-cap the ex-financial minister of Germany proposed

EDIT: taxes on in Germany are around 65% on everything you earn, and then 19% sales tax on everything. So 75% tax on the super-rich doesn't seem like a huge deal to me, at all. It's not gonna hurt their businesses because it's only going to be the income tax, which is still going to be gigantic.

EDIT2: Wait, this IS only on personal income tax, right?
Last edited by CoreysMonster at Sep 28, 2012,
#3
What is the tax rate there now? 75% seems a little steep to me, right now I'm paying like 20% in the states, but I make less than $20k a year.
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#5
Quote by CoreysMonster
Raising taxes for the rich by a couple of percent isn't going to hurt them. It's definitely a lot better than the wage-cap the ex-financial minister of Germany proposed

EDIT: taxes on in Germany are around 65% on everything you earn, and then 19% sales tax on everything. So 75% tax on the super-rich doesn't seem like a huge deal to me, at all. It's not gonna hurt their businesses because it's only going to be the income tax, which is still going to be gigantic.

EDIT2: Wait, this IS only on personal income tax, right?

From my understanding it's income tax.
Quote by Bushinarin
What is the tax rate there now? 75% seems a little steep to me, right now I'm paying like 20% in the states, but I make less than $20k a year.

Quote by Blayney
What is the rate for what they earn under €1million?

I think it's around 40% on average.

Income/Year - Tax rate %
Up to €5,963	0%
Between €5,964 - €11,896	5.5%
Between €11,897 - €26,420	14%
Between €26,421 - €70,830	30%
Above €70,830	41%

edit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_European_countries
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Last edited by Kensai at Sep 28, 2012,
#7
I think people who earn more should pay a higher percentage, but not to the point where earning a lot looses its attractiveness... 75% does seem high... though...
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#8
Quote by Kensai
From my understanding it's income tax.

The question is if France differentiates between personal income tax and corporate income tax, because taxing 75% of all businesses' income is going to drive every single important business out of the country.
#9
Raise taxes for rich people!

Then raise taxes for the poor people EVEN MORE!!

It's the only way. Trust me.
#10
So like a 35% increase? If I were wealthy, and that was imposed on me, I'd probably move to another country.
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#11
Quote by Robfreitag
I think people who earn more should pay a higher percentage, but not to the point where earning a lot looses its attractiveness... 75% does seem high... though...

given the way the tax system works it's never unattractive to earn more.

You might end up paying more in income tax but you still receive more money.

If you earn 1m euros one year you'll pay x tax and receive Y in income, if you earn 2m euros, you'll pay x +750k in tax and receive Y+250k in income.

You'll still be better off.
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Quote by element4433
Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
#12
you could just not pay any tax and let the E.U bail you out.
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#13
Quote by Lemoninfluence
given the way the tax system works it's never unattractive to earn more.

You might end up paying more in income tax but you still receive more money.

If you earn 1m euros one year you'll pay x tax and receive Y in income, if you earn 2m euros, you'll pay x +750k in tax and receive Y+250k in income.

You'll still be better off.

Yes, but you could pay less tax somewhere else, and thus receive more income.
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#14
Quote by CoreysMonster
The question is if France differentiates between personal income tax and corporate income tax, because taxing 75% of all businesses' income is going to drive every single important business out of the country.

I very much doubt that it's corporate income tax, that'd be crazy... even for France.
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#15
Quote by CoreysMonster
The question is if France differentiates between personal income tax and corporate income tax, because taxing 75% of all businesses' income is going to drive every single important business out of the country.

Corporations/companies are separate entities and so the revenue doesn't go through the individual, it goes through the corporation (which then pays corporation tax on its profits).

the 75% applies to people only (I assume).
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Quote by element4433
Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
#16
I can only assume that the rich of France are unaware of tax avoision.
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#17
Quote by metacarpi
I can only assume that the rich of France are unaware of tax avoision.

Well, they're too busy worrying about garlic harvests and onion soup.
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#18
Quote by metacarpi
I can only assume that the rich of France are unaware of tax avoision.

tax avoidance is legal

tax evasion is not.

You avoid tax liability, you evade paying tax.

That said, if he's upping the rate and he wants to increase revenue, he should also be closing some of the loopholes and exemptions that I presume exist in the French tax system.
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Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
#19
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Well, they're too busy worrying about garlic harvests and onion soup.


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EDIT: I know it's legal, hence avoision as opposed to evasion.
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#21
As much as it makes me wince to say it (because I don't take Rand seriously most of the time), I'm with Rand on this one.

I believe if we start taxing the top "10% of earners", we also end up taxing small business owners. Small business owners are the backbone of most towns in the USA. (I've no problem with taxing corporations.) I've always been in favor of an equal percentage of taxation for all, regardless of their earnings.
#22
Taxing the rich is unconstitutional and a violation of their rights, just like taxing people so they don't have to pay for healthcare when they need it.
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#23
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
As much as it makes me wince to say it (because I don't take Rand seriously most of the time), I'm with Rand on this one.

I believe if we start taxing the top "10% of earners", we also end up taxing small business owners. Small business owners are the backbone of most towns in the USA. (I've no problem with taxing corporations.) I've always been in favor of an equal percentage of taxation for all, regardless of their earnings.

The problem is that many rich people already end up paying less taxes because they can afford financial advisors to help them figure out ways to avoid paying taxes on all of their income.
#24
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
As much as it makes me wince to say it (because I don't take Rand seriously most of the time), I'm with Rand on this one.

I believe if we start taxing the top "10% of earners", we also end up taxing small business owners. Small business owners are the backbone of most towns in the USA. (I've no problem with taxing corporations.) I've always been in favor of an equal percentage of taxation for all, regardless of their earnings.


What is fair and what benefits the society as a whole are two different things.
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#25
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
As much as it makes me wince to say it (because I don't take Rand seriously most of the time), I'm with Rand on this one.

I believe if we start taxing the top "10% of earners", we also end up taxing small business owners. Small business owners are the backbone of most towns in the USA. (I've no problem with taxing corporations.) I've always been in favor of an equal percentage of taxation for all, regardless of their earnings.

small business owners are not going to be hit by this.

If your business is generating enough revenue to give the owner over a million euros in income, you're not a small business.

It seems like people have a problem separating business revenue from income. If we're talking sole traders/partnerships where the owners have unlimited liability, then there are tax exemptions for things relating to the business. Wages paid to workers, property rental etc can all be used to lower tax liability.

If we're talking about small/medium sized limited companies then they only pay tax on their profits and then dividends get paid out of the profit after tax.

What gets taxed by income tax is the stuff you take home. The money you receive regularly that's yours to keep/spend on stuff for you.

If you're taking home 1m+ euros a year, I have little sympathy that you're only going to receive a quarter of the profit you make after paying all your expenses and workers.

To put this in perspective, to be affected, you have to be earning 1m euros.

Assuming the rest of the tax brackets are unaffected, someone earning 1m euros will be taking home 603358.12 euros after tax.

Anything taxed by this new rate will be on top of that.

Forgive me if I'm not sympathetic to people taking home nearly 20 times as much as the average salary (37k euro)
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Quote by element4433
Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
#26
Quote by Lemoninfluence
small business owners are not going to be hit by this.

If your business is generating enough revenue to give the owner over a million euros in income, you're not a small business.

I understand this, but I'm relating this kind of thing to what happens in the US. In the US, we typically tax the top 10%. That usually means something like all businesses that bring in a revenue of $250k.

I guess my real point is, I just dislike the idea of taxing certain businesses getting taxed more than other businesses.

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Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Sep 28, 2012,
#27
Quote by crazysam23_Atax

I guess my real point is, I just dislike the idea of taxing certain businesses getting taxed more than other businesses.

Some businesses earn a crazy amount of money. That's how they're different
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#28
My biggest problem with taxing the rich is when it's a guy that grew up in a one-room sh*t-hole and has now made it in the world. I personally think they should make up a "wealth threshold" where if you have more than say, 10 million (currency) you have a steeper tax rate...
#29
I've never been entirely certain why it's deemed appropriate that just because somebody can contribute more to society through taxation, it's expected that they should.
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#30
Quote by Kensai
Some businesses earn a crazy amount of money. That's how they're different

So? Why should they be taxed at a higher percentage, just because their revenue stream is higher?

Why shouldn't every business be taxed at the same percentage?

Quote by metacarpi
I've never been entirely certain why it's deemed appropriate that just because somebody can contribute more to society through taxation, it's expected that they should.
This.

I mean, really...all that does is make people/businesses feel like they're being punished for being successful.

@sacamano79:
My father (who runs his own private medical practice) and earns in revenue between $200,000 and $400,000 (depending on the year) is taxed at (accounting for state, federal, and property taxes) ~65%. Unfortunately, taxes are ridiculous everywhere. The only difference is, depending upon the country, the tax thresholds vary. (For example, in the US, it's this.) That's why everyone should have an equal tax rate, no matter their income or revenue.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Sep 28, 2012,
#31
That is a retarded amount of taxation.
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#32
Quote by Jacques-Henri
My biggest problem with taxing the rich is when it's a guy that grew up in a one-room sh*t-hole and has now made it in the world. I personally think they should make up a "wealth threshold" where if you have more than say, 10 million (currency) you have a steeper tax rate...

how often does that happen though?

realistically?

Also, nobody holds 10m in currency, 10m in cash is 10m that isn't invested and isn't making more money.

Quote by crazysam23_Atax
So? Why should they be taxed at a higher percentage, just because their revenue stream is higher?

Why shouldn't every business be taxed at the same percentage?

because they have different benefits and disadvantages.

One business may have the protection of limited liability and so should pay an extra tax on top of the normal tax.

Also, they're not taxed on their revenue, they're taxed on profit (usually the profit that isn't reinvested into the business).

Quote by metacarpi
I've never been entirely certain why it's deemed appropriate that just because somebody can contribute more to society through taxation, it's expected that they should.

Because they've benefited the most from participating in society and as a result they're now in a position to contribute to that society the most.
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Quote by element4433
Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
Last edited by Lemoninfluence at Sep 28, 2012,
#33
Depends are they being taked at the same rate as the middle class, if they are being taxed less then hell yeah if its 10% more no. I don't believe in social warfare and what not but still. As for aireses just take all of it ****'em!
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#34
Quote by Lemoninfluence
Because they've benefited the most from participating in society and as a result they're now in a position to contribute to that society the most.


And even at a flat rate of taxation, they're contributing more. So why is it seen that they should be subjected to higher rates of tax?

Not that I entirely disagree, I just don't understand why it's deemed acceptable to demand more of someone's earnings through tax just because they earn more.
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#35
I'm not sure you even need to tax them MORE, necessarily. Just get rid of all the wafer-thin laws that allow hundreds on hundreds of tax loop-holes, have them pay their fair share, and call it a day.

However, if you're making that much money, getting taxed 10% or so more isn't going to kill you or anyone you know, and you should be grateful you've got the money instead of complaining and acting like paying a little more for the greater good is going to murder your livelihood.
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#36
Quote by strat0blaster
I'm not sure you even need to tax them MORE, necessarily. Just get rid of all the wafer-thin laws that allow hundreds on hundreds of tax loop-holes, have them pay their fair share, and call it a day.

I would argue we should do this, and tax every business at an equal rate. If you close all the loopholes and kickbacks, then it becomes more sensible for everyone to be taxed at an equal rate.
#37
If you make more, you pay more. It's not proportionate, having $100,000 income is far more than 10 X more beneficial than earning $10,000 - Same with $20,000 vs $200,000. Earning more makes life exponentially easier and therefor you are not taxed in a proportional fashion.
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#38
Quote by metacarpi
And even at a flat rate of taxation, they're contributing more. So why is it seen that they should be subjected to higher rates of tax?

Not that I entirely disagree, I just don't understand why it's deemed acceptable to demand more of someone's earnings through tax just because they earn more.


Why do we ask the stronger people to carry the heavy loads and have other people carry nothing? The rich are in a better position to bear a heavier tax burden than the poor are. We operate as a society, we specialise for the greatest benefit. We have Lawyers who are experts in the law rather than giving everyone an equal education in the law and relying on them to sort it out themselves, we have doctors rather than giving first aid training to everyone, we have builders instead of making people build their own shacks. We have tax burdens that are carried by those who are in the best position to do so. And we have tax burdens because there are things that the state is better at providing, than private industry.

You could also come at the issue from the other direction. Why do we only pay workers a fraction of the value they create?

If the raw materials for a good cost £5 per unit and it takes the worker 5 minutes to make the product and it's sold wholesale for £20 per unit (excl. delivery) that worker is creating £400 worth of goods an hour and the raw materials cost £100 per hour. That worker has created roughly £300 of value an hour. Yet how many people earn £2-300 per hour working in a factory?

If people were paid the full amount of the value they create, wealth would be more equally distributed and flat taxes would be more effective.

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Quote by element4433
Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
#39
Just curious, can someone give me a legitimate, specific reason to raise taxes on the rich outside of "they can afford it"?

Like, something that tells me they deserve to pay more, even though they have the exact same access to the services produced by taxes as those that pay less/don't pay at all.

This is the right way to look at it, from this standpoint.

Quote by Lemoninfluence
Why do we ask the stronger people to carry the heavy loads and have other people carry nothing? The rich are in a better position to bear a heavier tax burden than the poor are. We operate as a society, we specialise for the greatest benefit. We have Lawyers who are experts in the law rather than giving everyone an equal education in the law and relying on them to sort it out themselves, we have doctors rather than giving first aid training to everyone, we have builders instead of making people build their own shacks. We have tax burdens that are carried by those who are in the best position to do so. And we have tax burdens because there are things that the state is better at providing, than private industry.

You could also come at the issue from the other direction. Why do we only pay workers a fraction of the value they create?

If the raw materials for a good cost £5 per unit and it takes the worker 5 minutes to make the product and it's sold wholesale for £20 per unit (excl. delivery) that worker is creating £400 worth of goods an hour and the raw materials cost £100 per hour. That worker has created roughly £300 of value an hour. Yet how many people earn £2-300 per hour working in a factory?

If people were paid the full amount of the value they create, wealth would be more equally distributed and flat taxes would be more effective.



And this is the wrong way.

Quote by SFosterS
If you make more, you pay more. It's not proportionate, having $100,000 income is far more than 10 X more beneficial than earning $10,000 - Same with $20,000 vs $200,000. Earning more makes life exponentially easier and therefor you are not taxed in a proportional fashion.
Last edited by blake1221 at Sep 28, 2012,
#40
What needs to be investigated/scrutinised more is the loopholes big businesses and high earners take advantage of.
Thats the real problem that needs to be addressed, raising taxes for the rich isnt really going to make that much difference.
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