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summer41 er
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#1
I have a fender squier strat and a 15r marshall amp. i want a good and cheap distortion pedal or multi effect pedal with distorion. what is a good one???
thx
Eppicurt
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#2
By 15r Marshall I'm guessing you mean the MG. Buying a new distortion pedal is not going to worth while with the amp and will not improve the sound of it. It'd be a better idea to save that money and put it towards a better quality amp.
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MultiM
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#3
what is you budget? and what music do you play?
Last edited by MultiM at Oct 2, 2012,
kyle62
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#4
I reckon you'd have much more fun with a modelling amp like a Fender Mustang or Peavey Vypyr.

All the distortion you could want, as well as a ton of different amps and effects. Would sound better than your Marshall too.
summer41 er
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#5
stuff I play is a7x, bfmv, ,soad ,pantera and megadeth

my budget at this moment is €100 and yes its the MG
Last edited by summer41 er at Oct 2, 2012,
Roc8995
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#6
A pedal isn't going to get you any closer to those tones. The MG has plenty of gain already, that's not the problem.

Those 100 euro will go a long way towards a new amp. A Vypyr would probably be perfect for you.
tubetime86
I don't even play guitar.
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#7
Sell the MG, add that to your budget, then buy whatever size of Vypyr you can afford. You will be infinitely happier. You also might consider selling your Squier and getting something with humbuckers. A strat is a pretty poor choice for those styles.
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summer41 er
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#8
I know that my squier is a bad guitar but when i bought it I just started playing (any suggestions for a new guitar) . I have enough overdrive on my amp but no distortion
tubetime86
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#9
Quote by summer41 er
I know that my squier is a bad guitar but when i bought it I just started playing (any suggestions for a new guitar) . I have enough overdrive on my amp but no distortion

First off, its not so much that its a bad guitar; its a bad guitar for what you play. The bands you mention almost exclusively use humbuckers, and your guitar is equipped with single coils.

Second, overdrive and distortion are the same thing. Your amp is not 'lacking' anything, it just isn't any good.
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summer41 er
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#10
What is the difference between single coil and humbuckers?
and I heard that overdrive is used for rock and distortion for metal


My pickups
Last edited by summer41 er at Oct 2, 2012,
Roc8995
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#11
A humbucker is basically two single coils in one pickup. It helps cancel out noise and it adds more output. The two pickups on the left (neck and middle position) are singles and the right one (we call it 'bridge position") is a humbucker.

As for overdrive being for rock and distortion for metal...no. Again, overdrive is distortion. Your MG already has distortion built in, and plenty of it.
tubetime86
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#12
Oh nice, you've got a 'fat strat!' That means you do have a humbucker in your bridge position. That will help you put off selling the guitar for a while. Its still not great, but its not as bad as a regular strat, which only has single coils.

As for overdrive and distortion, technically both are simply 'distortion' but people use the term 'overdrive' because distortion is the sound created by overdriving components... So basically they are the same.

For some odd reason in pedals they usually call the lower gain (less heavy distortion) ones overdrives and the higher gain (heavy distortion) ones distortions... There is really no good reason for that (in my opinion) but its become a pretty common misconception.
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Dave_Mc
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#13
Quote by tubetime86

For some odd reason in pedals they usually call the lower gain (less heavy distortion) ones overdrives and the higher gain (heavy distortion) ones distortions... There is really no good reason for that (in my opinion) but its become a pretty common misconception.


if you ask me, if they make the hard clipping ones (diodes to ground) distortions and soft clipping (diodes in feedback loop round the opamp) overdrives, that's a good thing.

Of course, there's little or no rhyme nor reason to the naming, so you probably have a point.

also, i'd say a fat strat is pretty sweet for heavier stuff. (unless you meant it wasn't that great because it was a squier, in which case, fair enough
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tubetime86
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#14
Quote by Dave_Mc
1. if you ask me, if they make the hard clipping ones (diodes to ground) distortions and soft clipping (diodes in feedback loop round the opamp) overdrives, that's a good thing.

Of course, there's little or no rhyme nor reason to the naming, so you probably have a point.

2. also, i'd say a fat strat is pretty sweet for heavier stuff. (unless you meant it wasn't that great because it was a squier, in which case, fair enough

1. I, as well as the majority of guitar players, do not understand what you mean... So I think the distinction is pointless from a marketing standpoint. From an electronics standpoint distortion is the only correct term anyway... And it doesn't necessarily mean what we guitarists think it does.

2. Ya initially I was saying it wasn't good because I assumed it was a single coil only model. Now that I know he has a humbucker I don't really see much point in messing with the guitar. A Squier may not be great, but you could do a lot worse.

Besides I'm in the 'cheap guitar' club. I don't believe in nice guitars.
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Dave_Mc
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#15
1) well, sure, but i don't really believe in marketing anyway I mean, "correct from a marketing standpoint" generally means "factually incorrect but we can sorta spin it like that and not get investigated by the advertising standards agency"

I only have the shakiest knowledge of electronics too. But, from what i can tell, where those clipping diodes are in the circuit seems to matter.

different discplines often use different names, so that's fair enough, if you ask me. I'm well aware distortion might be the only electrically correct term, but most guitarists understand what overdrive and distortion are, and how they differ. Plus, as i said, you could argue they are different based on the circuit topology- overdrives tend to have the diodes in one place, distortions in another.

2) agreed
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MaaZeus
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#16
and I heard that overdrive is used for rock and distortion for metal


Basics in nutshell. Lets see if I got everything right too...

Distortion comes when you try to push (overdrive) components louder than they are capable of. It wont go any louder, just distort more and more. In case of metal its usually the preamp. On overdrive channel turn the Gain (preamp volume) way up to hear what happens, just remember to keep the Master Volume down so you dont blast your windows and ears.

Some amps are simply not high gain enough especially many years ago. This is where the pedals come in. To get metal tones people used overdrive pedals to boost the volume (and maybe add some mild distortion of their own) of the signal coming to preamp, to allow way more overdrive than the amp own OD can do alone. Tubescreamer was a popular one. And they are still useful, some amps sing with booster. Only works on Tube amps and some Hybrids though, boosting solidstate amps helps nothing and MG is SS amp, no?

And then there are dedicated distortion pedals IE the million "metal distortion" pedals on the market. Basically they are same things as booster pedals, but higher gain. Unlike booster pedals above you plug these into the Clean channel of your amp (unless there is something special with combination of amp distortion and distortion pedal. search Entombed Sound on Youtube for example). The pedal does all the distortion work.


I may not be 100% accurate but this is the way I have understood it.

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Last edited by MaaZeus at Oct 2, 2012,
tubetime86
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#17
^Not really... Tubescreamers and other overdrives have 'distortion' circuits in them. There is such thing as a 'clean boost' but that's different. So no, not really.

The only real distinction I've ever heard is the one Dave is referrring to... But I don't know enough about the circuits to confirm or deny...
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MaaZeus
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#18
Quote by tubetime86
^Not really... Tubescreamers and other overdrives have 'distortion' circuits in them. There is such thing as a 'clean boost' but that's different. So no, not really.

The only real distinction I've ever heard is the one Dave is referrring to... But I don't know enough about the circuits to confirm or deny...



I think I did mention that they can add a distortion of their own. Just way less than dedicated distortion pedals that are on the market now. I think that was originally their intented purpose too, but people found out that they work so much better boosting the preamp?

Again, I am talking this from the POV of metalhead, what use pedals are good for for us. Either as boosters or dedicated distortion if absolutely necessary (better amp way preferable).

ESP LTD F-50 + Tonezone
Cort EVL-Z4 + X2N
Cort EVL-K47B

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Randall RG1503
Bugera 333
Peavey Rockmaster preamp

Line6 Pod X3
Last edited by MaaZeus at Oct 2, 2012,
tubetime86
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#19
Quote by MaaZeus
I think I did mention that they can add a distortion of their own. Just way less than dedicated distortion pedals that are on the market now. I think that was originally their intented purpose too, but people found out that they work so much better boosting the preamp?

You said 'maybe add some mild distortion of their own' as if that's an afterthought that some do... Its not. All overdrives do that, or else they'd be clean boosts.

See the problem here is there is no such thing as a 'dedicated distortion pedal.' There are two classifications that actually have a concrete definition based on circuits; 'distortion pedal' which encompasses both overdrives and distortions and 'clean boosts' which simply amplify the signal. I know what you're saying, and its commonly accepted, but in real terms it has no meaning.

Again, if there is a real distinction between overdrive and distortion pedals it is what Dave suggested... But even then I'd bet there are exceptions to the rule on both sides.
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MaaZeus
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#20
Quote by tubetime86
You said 'maybe add some mild distortion of their own' as if that's an afterthought that some do... Its not. All overdrives do that, or else they'd be clean boosts.

See the problem here is there is no such thing as a 'dedicated distortion pedal.' There are two classifications that actually have a concrete definition based on circuits; 'distortion pedal' which encompasses both overdrives and distortions and 'clean boosts' which simply amplify the signal. I know what you're saying, and its commonly accepted, but in real terms it has no meaning.

Again, if there is a real distinction between overdrive and distortion pedals it is what Dave suggested... But even then I'd bet there are exceptions to the rule on both sides.



Just my typical disorganised "flow of thought" posting and remembering something afterwards. Expect a lot edits with me.

You obviously know more about this than me. I'm still a n00b myself doing lots and lots of reading.

ESP LTD F-50 + Tonezone
Cort EVL-Z4 + X2N
Cort EVL-K47B

Marshall Valvestate 8100
Randall RG1503
Bugera 333
Peavey Rockmaster preamp

Line6 Pod X3
Last edited by MaaZeus at Oct 2, 2012,
Dave_Mc
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#21
Quote by tubetime86
^Not really... Tubescreamers and other overdrives have 'distortion' circuits in them. There is such thing as a 'clean boost' but that's different. So no, not really.

The only real distinction I've ever heard is the one Dave is referrring to... But I don't know enough about the circuits to confirm or deny...


there are also a couple of different type of od circuits as well. the way huge red llama works in a different way (CMOS or something like that? I have no idea what that is ), and there are those newer type of pedals which use mosfets almost like tubes (so they don't have any clipping diodes etc., they overdrive the cascading mosfets, much like in a high gain tube amp, i think)- things like various wamplers and catalinbread pedals.

also there's some overlap etc. (and also just people naming things however they damn well please )- for example, an OCD has mosfet clippers to ground, but it sounds softer because mosfets clip more softly than diodes. or your OD250+ (or is it the dist+ you have?) is generally considered an overdrive, i think, but it has clippers to ground (again, germanium in the dist+ so i think they clip more softly, but the dod one had silicon for harder clipping, i think).

but as a very general rule of thumb, you can normally seem to consider ods to have soft clipping in a feedback loop around the op-amp, which leads to soft, more natural clipping. things like a tubescreamer, boss sd1, marshall bluesbreaker (the pedal), etc. While distortions use harder clipping, which generally is diodes (or LEDs, or whatever) to ground. Things like a boss ds1, rat, marshall guvnor, etc.

Quote by tubetime86

Again, if there is a real distinction between overdrive and distortion pedals it is what Dave suggested... But even then I'd bet there are exceptions to the rule on both sides.


yep, loads of exceptions

it's a bit like the "all-tube" thing. There's a definition which is really obvious *to me*. But getting everyone to agree (especially those with vested interests in not agreeing) is pretty difficult.
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tubetime86
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#22
I'd be very interested to hear one of the tech-heads expand on your thoughts, Dave. I think you're on to something.

(I think its a Dist+ I have, but I don't know because it was from a kit and the kit made it sound like those circuits were identical. )

Edit: Oops, from a quick look it seems I had the option when building it... I don't remember but I've always called it a Dist+ so my guess is that's it.

http://www.generalguitargadgets.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=151&category_id=7&vmcchk=1&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=45

Interesting for our conversation that that kit can build either one of two overdrives, or one of two distortions.
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Last edited by tubetime86 at Oct 2, 2012,
Dave_Mc
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#23
^ i think they're very, very close (but i'm no expert). i know byoc sells them both in the same kit, so you can choose which to build. EDIT: ahahaha ninja'd by your edit And also whether all those pedals are any different because of the minor differences, or they fall into the "named however they please" group i mentioned, I dunno. I'd suspect the latter (though the silicon diodes might sound harder- ironically, they're in the dod which is labelled "overdrive" )

And yeah, definitely listen to the tech-heads. I've got a very basic knowledge of the electronics, which (i think) is sufficient for getting guitar kit to do what you want, but i'm no electronics guru either (plus sometimes i get the wrong end of the stick ). If any of the electronics badasses could expand on that, i'd be all ears (plus if what they're saying disagrees with what i'm saying, listen to them, lol ).
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Last edited by Dave_Mc at Oct 2, 2012,
tubetime86
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#24
Well I know you to be pretty reluctant to post anything you don't feel you can support, so I doubt you're blowing hot air... I simply don't know a single thing about those circuits.

(You'd think I would, since I've built two... But those kits are paint by numbers kind of stuff. No actual understanding required. )
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Dave_Mc
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#25
yeah i mean i don't think i'm (completely) blowing hot air, but at the same time if the conversation gets any more complicated than that, i'm completely lost And also i might be over-simplifying (which can happen when you only have a little knowledge, a little knowledge can be more dangerous than none ).

there's some good info on geofex, i think, regarding od/dist circuits.
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tubetime86
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#26
Either way, deciding which pedals to consider based on whether they are named 'overdrive' or 'distortion' is not a good idea.
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Dave_Mc
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#27
definitely agree with that
Quote by classicrocker01
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summer41 er
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#28
I don't understand everything what you guys are saying (probably because Im dutch and only played guitar for about 2 years ) but what should I buy to get a more heavy metal tone???
Last edited by summer41 er at Oct 2, 2012,
tubetime86
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#29
A new amp. Sorry dude, but that's really the proper answer.
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Dave_Mc
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#30
agreed.

i guess you could buy something cheap like a joyo crunch distortion or high gain distortion (they're actually pretty good, and are based on sought-after circuits), which wouldn't really slow down your amp-fund-saving-time that much. But the big thing is the amp, really. Thomann has deals on the jet city stuff, which might be worth considering. they do the 50 watt combo for around 400 euro or the 20 watt high gain combo (the jca2212) for around 300 euro. Assuming they sound close to the 50 watt head (which i own), they'd be worth aiming for. If you're in a position to save, that is- i'm well aware you might be 14 and that amount of money just might not be achievable, and if that's the case, then we'll rethink things.
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summer41 er
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#31
almost 16
and I really want a new guitar. what is a good cheap one for metal ???
Last edited by summer41 er at Oct 2, 2012,
Dave_Mc
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#32
to be fair, your age is less important than your ability to save, is sorta the point i was trying to make

But I mean only you know what situation you're in- how much you can save (and how quickly), how much space you have in your house for gear, how loud you can play (i don't agree that tubes have to be cranked to 10 to sound good, but if you have to play really quietly so you don't waken a sleeping baby or neighbours who share walls with you, then tubes might not be the way to go), whether your parents are cool with you buying new gear, etc. etc.

EDIT: regarding the guitar- again, it's up to you. The amp is generally more important *unless* the guitar is either unplayable/broken, you hate playing it or it's totally unsuitable for the stuff you're trying to play. considering yours has a bridge humbucker, i'd say it's suitable for metal, as long as it's playable and you like it, i'd swap the amp first. Conversely if the guitar only good for dumping, then you could get a new guitar first.
Quote by classicrocker01
Only on UG would I say I got engaged and bought a jet city and get congratulated on the amp


Last edited by Dave_Mc at Oct 2, 2012,
|Long|
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#33
Quote by Dave_Mc
1) well, sure, but i don't really believe in marketing anyway I mean, "correct from a marketing standpoint" generally means "factually incorrect but we can sorta spin it like that and not get investigated by the advertising standards agency"

There is some 'merit' to how they name them. But, it's not a fine line.
In guitar terms, overdrive is said to be smooth and distortion hard and harsh.

Well, soft-clipping is a smooth limiter and hard-clipping is an abrupt limiter.

They put two and two together and voila. Marketing!

There are though, many other ways to make a distortion/overdrive pedal. These include: zener diodes, CMOS inverters etc. You can shape the output to make the clipping you want with the right circuit knowledge.
At the end of the day, what guitarist come to know as distortion is hard-clipping and overdrive soft-clipping. The designs are irrelevant from that point.


I only have the shakiest knowledge of electronics too. But, from what i can tell, where those clipping diodes are in the circuit seems to matter.

Well, somewhat. It's not quite where the diodes are, but what's connected to them. To alter a hard-clipping circuit you can add a resistor to the diode path to limit the voltage, which will decrease the harsh clip.


different discplines often use different names, so that's fair enough, if you ask me. I'm well aware distortion might be the only electrically correct term, but most guitarists understand what overdrive and distortion are, and how they differ. Plus, as i said, you could argue they are different based on the circuit topology- overdrives tend to have the diodes in one place, distortions in another.

People with electrical background will and can get easily annoyed with improper use of terminology. Much like in any profession. Yet, there is a need for the distinction in the guitar world because distortion now is a tonal term to compare to overdrive, not just an electronics term.


Ramble ramble ramble, just some thoughts and clarification. For a 'lack of electrical' sense, you know enough to understand your pedals!

Carry on.


EDIT:
To the OP. The general consensus is that your amp is not very good and the sounds that you want out of it cannot be had. I would go on google and/or youtube and look for eq settings for your amp. Maybe someone out there has a tonal region that you want. It's a better solution than to buy more gear before really understanding what you have.

Next, I would see if you can go to a store any play with some dist. pedals on the same model you have. If you have a Guitar Center around you, I'm sure they stack a lot of the MG series. This, much like buying anything guitar gear, will allow you to test out the pedals on your amp. There is nothing worse than trying out a pedal in store on a different, only to later bring it home and find out it sounds nothing a like on ours.

I would say in my experience, pedals are meant to aid and colour your amp. They won't completely change the sound of it, so if that's what you are looking for, I would say, get a new amp.

... ramble ramble ramble.
Hydroxic acid, kills thousands of people every year. Studies have shown lakes and rivers all over North America contain high levels hydroxic acid. Currently governments have taken no action against this life threatening chemical.
Last edited by |Long| at Oct 2, 2012,
summer41 er
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#34
ok so what is a good amp within my budget??
thx for helping
MaaZeus
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#35
Instead of mumbling nonsense about pedals I should have asked this in the first place. Have you experimented with tuning your guitar down yet? The bands you said that I am somewhat familiar with tune down their guitars, A7X being in Drop D and SOAD in Drop C, giving their guitars the bassier crushing (the low E string in particular) sound. If you have your guitar in E standard tuning no amount of distortion or different pedals will help as your guitar is still tuned higher than the bands you want to imitate.

Pantera on the other hand went from E standard to D# and eventually D standard as time passed, IIRC.

ESP LTD F-50 + Tonezone
Cort EVL-Z4 + X2N
Cort EVL-K47B

Marshall Valvestate 8100
Randall RG1503
Bugera 333
Peavey Rockmaster preamp

Line6 Pod X3
Last edited by MaaZeus at Oct 3, 2012,
FenrirFangs
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#36
I am definitely going to agree with what most are saying. Your amp already has a lot of distortion on TAP! Grab a nicer amp. As it was said, the Peavey Vyper sounds right up your alley.
Dave_Mc
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#37
Quote by |Long|
(a) There is some 'merit' to how they name them. But, it's not a fine line.
In guitar terms, overdrive is said to be smooth and distortion hard and harsh.

Well, soft-clipping is a smooth limiter and hard-clipping is an abrupt limiter.

They put two and two together and voila. Marketing!

There are though, many other ways to make a distortion/overdrive pedal. These include: zener diodes, CMOS inverters etc. You can shape the output to make the clipping you want with the right circuit knowledge.
At the end of the day, what guitarist come to know as distortion is hard-clipping and overdrive soft-clipping. The designs are irrelevant from that point.


(b) Well, somewhat. It's not quite where the diodes are, but what's connected to them. To alter a hard-clipping circuit you can add a resistor to the diode path to limit the voltage, which will decrease the harsh clip.


(c) People with electrical background will and can get easily annoyed with improper use of terminology. Much like in any profession. Yet, there is a need for the distinction in the guitar world because distortion now is a tonal term to compare to overdrive, not just an electronics term.


(d) Ramble ramble ramble, just some thoughts and clarification. For a 'lack of electrical' sense, you know enough to understand your pedals!

Carry on.


(e) EDIT:
To the OP. The general consensus is that your amp is not very good and the sounds that you want out of it cannot be had. I would go on google and/or youtube and look for eq settings for your amp. Maybe someone out there has a tonal region that you want. It's a better solution than to buy more gear before really understanding what you have.

Next, I would see if you can go to a store any play with some dist. pedals on the same model you have. If you have a Guitar Center around you, I'm sure they stack a lot of the MG series. This, much like buying anything guitar gear, will allow you to test out the pedals on your amp. There is nothing worse than trying out a pedal in store on a different, only to later bring it home and find out it sounds nothing a like on ours.

I would say in my experience, pedals are meant to aid and colour your amp. They won't completely change the sound of it, so if that's what you are looking for, I would say, get a new amp.

... ramble ramble ramble.


(a) haha yeah

(b) ah ok, thanks

(c) exactly, that's what I'm saying- guitar is its own field, in which case it's perfectly fine to make up new terms (or redefine existing ones) if they're more useful than the existing ones.

(d) thanks, i appreciate that

(e) agreed, that's sound advice
Quote by classicrocker01
Only on UG would I say I got engaged and bought a jet city and get congratulated on the amp


summer41 er
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#38
I am already familiar with different tunings like drop d ,d standard, drop c , open g and half step and my guitar strings are Ernie ball super slinky 9 to 42 if that means anything for a better sound. and here are 2 links of the guitars and amps at the musicshop in my area

guitars
amps
Dave_Mc
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#39
what's your budget?

i'd have said either the cort or schecter (having not really tried either, just judging by the other guitars i've tried by them) for the guitars, and the laney cub 10 (again, having not tried it, but having tried other laneys).

but really i mean if you can stretch to the laney, the jet cities will be within budget, and will be much more aimed at the tones you want (assuming your parents will let you order from thomann).
Quote by classicrocker01
Only on UG would I say I got engaged and bought a jet city and get congratulated on the amp