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#81
Quote by ElisabithaOak
...
I'm into rights. I really am.
...

[STUFF]

An employer should have the right to fire a homosexual because they are homosexual.

[MORE STUFF]

edited a couple of times. I'm proud of this.



WOW.
In the US, that is illegal.

And you are actually proud of this line of retarded bullshit?

So if you go fired from a job that you have had for say, 10 years, because some CEO wanted to hire his nephew, you would have no problem with that?

Go drink some Muratic Acid and rid the rest of the world of your moronic thoughts.


Your mother should have paid full price for her abortion.

You are only into "rights" when it suits your morally bankrupt mentality.

You make me want to fucking vomit.
#82
This law wont hold up in court, for the same reason the old abortion laws didn't, it infringes on peoples right to privacy.
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#84
Quote by ElisabithaOak
^This logic is rediculous.

I disagree with government's intervening with who private business hires and fires.

Is the next step with this sort of thinking that companies are mandated to hire the first person that applies for the job whom (who?) the government deems qualified?

It's nobody right to have a job.

editorite: "affects other people" - so my right to believe something is suspended because it might offend someone who believes something diffrent? So no one is allowed to believe anything or practice their beliefs?

...but sortoff sads



You can believe whatever the hell you want.

But (and here is what you fail to realize), you can't act on it if it infringes on someone else's rights or well-being.

Its my belief that you should have a rabid wolverine shoved up your ass.
And I can believe that all I want.
But if I act on that belief, then I go to jail.

See how that works.
See the difference between a belief and an action?
Last edited by CodeMonk at Oct 3, 2012,
#85
Quote by ElisabithaOak
^This logic is rediculous.

Where?

I disagree with government's intervening with who private business hires and fires.

Do you disagree with government intervening about pay?

Is the next step with this sort of thinking that companies are mandated to hire the first person that applies for the job whom (who?) the government deems qualified?

It's nobody right to have a job.

Not at all. You can hire whoever you like as long as your decision isn't founded on bigotry and racism.

That's because it's everybody's right to equal opportunity of employment.
#86
Quote by ElisabithaOak
Because this is silly and stupid.

I'm into rights. I really am.

I feel it is the owner of a private company's right to hire and fire who they like. I don't know how else to put it.

*lots of illogical crap*

edited a couple of times. I'm proud of this.

You are proving exactly why democracy often encounters problems... even idiots are allowed an opinion in a democracy.

If you're so keen on the rights of the employer, how about this: would you be perfectly satisfied with this system, if I were to offer you $100k/pa if you moved with your family to a state on the other side of the US, to work for me... and then after a couple of weeks, before you even receive your first month's wages, immediately fire you with no reason given, leaving you stranded with no job, far from people who can help you and with no income to sustain yourself and your family? And if pushed, my reason was that my religious view (or partial lack-of, as I consider myself agnostic) disagreed with yours?
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#87
Quote by DisarmGoliath
You are proving exactly why democracy often encounters problems... even idiots are allowed an opinion in a democracy.

If you're so keen on the rights of the employer, how about this: would you be perfectly satisfied with this system, if I were to offer you $100k/pa if you moved with your family to a state on the other side of the US, to work for me... and then after a couple of weeks, before you even receive your first month's wages, immediately fire you with no reason given, leaving you stranded with no job, far from people who can help you and with no income to sustain yourself and your family? And if pushed, my reason was that my religious view (or partial lack-of, as I consider myself agnostic) disagreed with yours?


That's why you make sure that if you have to relocate the company offers you a guaranteed relocation package, and preferably an employment contract with severance effective from signing. Really since most places in the U.S. have at will employment, you really can be fired for anything, you can sue if you think it was done for illegal reasons, but you have to actually be able to prove that, or hope they are willing to settle to keep the whole thing quiet.
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#88
Quote by ElisabithaOak
It's the way private business (should) work monk

Or else it's just public business in disguise.


It's still private business it is just subject to regulation and control to protect people, to make sure they aren't taken advantage of by those who have more than them.

But then i come from Europe so to most Americans i'm a morally bankrupt socialist.
#89
Quote by DisarmGoliath
sillyclichedfascist statement*

Good question*



I feel a real danger with public business being disguised as private business. It's probably more of a danger to the freedom of the western world-maybe the whole world- now than fascism, seeing as everyone is rightfully scared of that.

Do you at least hear what I'm saying?

I (and probably others) would be more likely to start a business if I thought I had the freedom to do what I wanted, and if I only had 5 people working for me, I'm gunna want to be able to get the best workers I can find and that might mean firing someone on short notice. Now you might say this is different from a huge corp but it's the principal of the matter to. I want to have freedom yadig? I even want racist and bigoted people to have their freedom.

This is only one example of freedom but this government encroaching on private business' freedom makes me teh sads.

What also alarms me is that this is what is the first step of the government controlling people for the sake of 'freedom'.

"You can't do this because it offends or inconviences someone!" This line of thinking doesn't make sense. If it your own business of course you can!

Private economy is going to leave some people out in the cold sometimes.

more shrugs to follow in future replies
Last edited by ElisabithaOak at Oct 3, 2012,
#90
Quote by ElisabithaOak

editorite: "affects other people" - so my right to believe something is suspended because it might offend someone who believes something diffrent? So no one is allowed to believe anything or practice their beliefs?

...but sortoff sads


Nope. Believing something doesn't affect anybody else. Practicing your beliefs is fine in most cases because it doesn't affect anybody else. Practicing your beliefs to the point where it infringes on other people's rights is not okay.

EDIT:
"You can't do this because it offends someone!" doesn't make sense

Who said this?

We're saying "You can't do this because it's bigoted, and infringes on people's right to equal opportunity of employment".
Last edited by willT08 at Oct 3, 2012,
#91
Quote by Kid_Thorazine
That's why you make sure that if you have to relocate the company offers you a guaranteed relocation package, and preferably an employment contract with severance effective from signing.

Yep, but in that user's eyes the employer wouldn't have to provide that, though not being from the US I have no idea on how these things actually work.

Really since most places in the U.S. have at will employment, you really can be fired for anything, you can sue if you think it was done for illegal reasons, but you have to actually be able to prove that, or hope they are willing to settle to keep the whole thing quiet.

And there's nothing in place that says the employee must have certain disciplinary procedures followed, and outlined in a contract? Wow... I'm glad I live in the UK then.


Edit: I'm done arguing with someone who cannot follow logical debate (to ElisabithaOak), but just wanted to say that my standpoint on anything is far from fascist... I find that quite laughable, in fact Apparently, you simply fail to understand how someone's right to free action and free speech etc. is within reason, based on how it relates to other people's rights/the law.
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#92
Quote by DisarmGoliath
Yep, but in that user's eyes the employer wouldn't have to provide that, though not being from the US I have no idea on how these things actually work.

Well they don't have to do that, but you shouldn't take a job with them unless they do.

And there's nothing in place that says the employee must have certain disciplinary procedures followed, and outlined in a contract? Wow... I'm glad I live in the UK then.


Some jobs have that, some don't, it's generally not a requirement but for higher paying jobs and jobs in certain fields it's fairly common, for example I work in IT security and all of my contracts have very strict procedures and whatnot, but that's largely because in my case I'm dealing with all sorts of sensitive information and they don't want some manager getting pissy and firing me when I could royally **** them over.
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#93
People will never have the right to equal opportunity of employment. The government can't and shouldn't try to provide this right. Especially when it infringes upon the rights of someone else- The right of employers to practice their beliefs. Be those beliefs even just personal biases.

Shoving gay people down bigoted employers throats isn't going to do anybody any good. It will make the employer resent the homosexual worker in question even more and maybe even make people resent minorities who are getting jobs or keeping jobs by playing the minority card . And it would be a poisonous work environment for everyone- not least of all the minority in this example.
Last edited by ElisabithaOak at Oct 3, 2012,
#100
Quote by ElisabithaOak
People will never have the right to equal opportunity of employment. The government can't and shouldn't try to provide this right. Especially when it infringes upon the rights of someone else- The right of employers to practice their beliefs. Be those beliefs even just personal biases.

Shoving gay people down bigoted employers throats isn't going to do anybody any good. It will make the employer resent the homosexual worker in question even more and maybe even make people resent minorities who are getting jobs or keeping jobs by playing the minority card . And it would be a poisonous work environment for everyone- not least of all the minority in this example.


Except people do and the government has been protecting it (governments cannot give rights, they can only protect or deny them) it since 1964 maybe you should take a high school civics class before trying to discuss these things.
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#101
My last statement, beef.
You seem to think the people with the power (Employers), should have all the rights, but the people without the power (employees) deserve NO rights.

That is all.
#102
Civil Rights Act + Secular Constitution = No-one gives a **** if you're religious. If the gay guy is the best qualified man for the job give him it.
#103
The government shouldn't try and protect or provide the right to equal opportunity of employment because it is impossible to effectively provide or 'protect' -as some people are taller and stronger than others, some people are more intelligent, some people were born into better circumstance- at the expense of the right of private business owners to run their business according to their beliefs and desires." is a more succint expression of my thoughts.

I don't like the idea of governments meddling in private business on principal that it should remain private.
#104
Quote by willT08
Civil Rights Act + Secular Constitution = No-one gives a **** if you're religious. If the gay guy is the best qualified man for the job give him it.


If you owned a business that's how you would run it and you wouldn't want someone else telling you what to do now would you?

Monk I think workersshould have, and do have tons of rights. A few of workers rights are the right to quit, the right to start their own business... and tons more.
#105
Quote by ElisabithaOak
The government shouldn't try and protect or provide the right to equal opportunity of employment because it is impossible to effectively provide or 'protect' -as some people are taller and stronger than others, some people are more intelligent, some people were born into better circumstance- at the expense of the right of private business owners to run their business according to their beliefs and desires." is a more succint expression of my thoughts.

I don't like the idea of governments meddling in private business on principal that it should remain private.



Equal opportunity means you have an equal chance as someone with the same qualifications as you, not that you have the same chance as someone who is more qualified. I think you're really missing the point here.
Quote by ElisabithaOak
If you owned a business that's how you would run it and you wouldn't want someone else telling you what to do now would you?



Protip: Businesses do not exist in a vacuum, they are part of society, and society has laws, most people don't seem to have a problem accepting this.
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Last edited by Kid_Thorazine at Oct 3, 2012,
#106
So if a private business decides to put dangerous chemicals into its products it's none of the governments business.

If a business fires a man because he suffers a crippling injury that means he can no longer walk and they don't want to provide wheelchair access it's none of the governments business.

You deregulate business and everyone except the very wealthy are going to suffer for it. You can't have a perfect free market it's too dangerous and too many people can get hurt, you need a safety net and control. To live safely and civilized with the best possible freedom is better than for some people to have total freedom and the rest to starve.
#107
*sigh* we'll try again... one last time.

You CAN base a decision to employ someone, on their qualification to do the job. That's why people go to school, get an education, and strive for 'qualifications'. Likewise, you can choose not to employ someone if they are not able to carry out specific physical tasks that are an integral part of the job (i.e you are within your right not to employ a man paralysed from the neck down, if he is applying for a job operating complicated, heavy machinery).

You CAN'T base your decision not to employ someone on the fact that they're gay and, in your (moronic) opinion, gay people are sissies and can't do a manly job.


Or, basically, this:
Quote by Kid_Thorazine
Equal opportunity means you have an equal chance as someone with the same qualifications as you, not that you have the same chance as someone who is more qualified. I think you're really missing the point here.
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#108
Quote by Kid_Thorazine
Equal opportunity means you have an equal chance as someone with the same qualifications as you, not that you have the same chance as someone who is more qualified. I think you're really missing the point here.


I think employers should have the right o discriminate.

I've stated this several times.
#110
Quote by ElisabithaOak
I think employers should have the right o discriminate.

I've stated this several times.


and i think that employers should have the right to see their kneecaps smashed in for being morons. Seems fair.
#111
Quote by ElisabithaOak
I think employers should have the right o discriminate.

I've stated this several times.


You have the right to think this. But that right doesn't make it less bigoted, narrowminded, backwards and primitive. And that's exactly why the government should try and protect the employees' rights. Because people like you indeed run companies and would act after their beliefs.

Thanks for your patience Goliath

but I'm still correct.


I think we can confirm a troll here.
Quote by Xplozive
You sir are a dick!
Quote by Toppscore
And then again, Wildthang, "You're probably NOT one of them clean Socialists, either"

Wat.
Last edited by WildthingJR at Oct 3, 2012,
#112
Quote by ElisabithaOak
I think employers should have the right o discriminate.

I've stated this several times.


And have failed to back it up with any solid reasoning.
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#113
Quote by Draken
So if a private business decides to put dangerous chemicals into its products it's none of the governments business.

If a business fires a man because he suffers a crippling injury that means he can no longer walk and they don't want to provide wheelchair access it's none of the governments business.

You deregulate business and everyone except the very wealthy are going to suffer for it. You can't have a perfect free market it's too dangerous and too many people can get hurt, you need a safety net and control. To live safely and civilized with the best possible freedom is better than for some people to have total freedom and the rest to starve.


1- That is illegal and rightly so.

2- In a free market eventually it would become customary for the worker to have negotiated, or in some other way prepared for such an outcome. But isn't that what is going on in North America right now? That the company or the workers union takes care of him?

3- I think where we are in history I don't think things would go back to the extreme wealthyness of the 1% of feudalism or other more recent examples of "unfairly" distributed wealth with names I am ignorant of.
#114
Right, this has gone on long enough - I need to go out now, so I guess we should tie this up...

For anyone wondering, there are several reasons for the following action and this thread has merely added to suspicions.
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#115
Quote by WildthingJR
You have the right to think this. But that right doesn't make it less bigoted, narrowminded, backwards and primitive. And that's exactly why the government should try and protect the employees' rights. Because people like you indeed run companies and would act after their beliefs.


I think we can confirm a troll here.


What good is the right to have beliefs but not act on beliefs within the law?

Maybe it's the illusion of a right?
#116
Even you might feel a little bit guilty for banning me because you lost an arguement or failed to bully me into silence Goliath?
#117
If you're gonna troll, at least do it a little bit less obvious
Quote by Xplozive
You sir are a dick!
Quote by Toppscore
And then again, Wildthang, "You're probably NOT one of them clean Socialists, either"

Wat.
#118
Quote by ElisabithaOak


2- In a free market eventually it would become customary for the worker to have negotiated, or in some other way prepared for such an outcome. But isn't that what is going on in North America right now? That the company or the workers union takes care of him?


Except when we had an extremely free market that didn't happen, and in the current system, people are largely taken care of because it's legally mandated, or they are union, but union workers make up something like 13% of the total workforce, because of union busting tactics among other things.
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#120
Thank you Goliath.

You have more patience than I do.
First post that moron made, I had a feeling it was gonna end with a banning.

I don't mind a good argument.
But when someone is just so fucked up and won't even consider another opinion, and is just totally wrong, its frustrating.
Lack of weed compounds the issue
Last edited by CodeMonk at Oct 3, 2012,