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#1
hello,
i am putting new preamp tubes in my MP1 preamp. after installing, should i wait awhile before raging, or jump right in? they are ruby 12ax7a (which i understand are rebranded )
thanks much
#2
Uhh, just start raging. Tubes are usually 'burned in' in the factory, so you don't really need to do that at home. Then again with rubies you don't know what you have so
I don't give a shit if you listen to me or not
#3
Rage!

(Seriously.)
Quote by Cathbard
Quote by Raijouta
Unless its electronic drums.

BURN THE WITCH!!!!!
#4
As mentioned, they are tested at the factory so they've already been hot.

Just make sure you let them warm up properly before turning on the standby switch, your tubes will thank you...and they'll last longer!

Rage on!
#5
Quote by theryanwhite
As mentioned, they are tested at the factory so they've already been hot.

Just make sure you let them warm up properly before turning on the standby switch, your tubes will thank you...and they'll last longer!

Rage on!


Not to nitpick, but that isn't really what the standby switch is for. Just sayin.
I don't give a shit if you listen to me or not
#6
Quote by Kevin Saale
Not to nitpick, but that isn't really what the standby switch is for. Just sayin.


Sorry Kevin, but you are wrong.

Since you seem to doubt my knowledge, please take a look at what Fender has to say about the standby switch. Last time I checked, they knew a thing or two about amplifiers.

http://www.fender.com/news/index.php?display_article=461

Please do some research before spouting off incorrect information.
#7
Quote by theryanwhite
Sorry Kevin, but you are wrong.

Since you seem to doubt my knowledge, please take a look at what Fender has to say about the standby switch. Last time I checked, they knew a thing or two about amplifiers.

http://www.fender.com/news/index.php?display_article=461

Please do some research before spouting off incorrect information.


Thats true, for high power amps, not for smaller amps. If it was true, how can tubes in something like a blues jr or a pro jr survive, since those amps have no standby switches? I've owned 3 tubes amps 2 of which hand standby switches and I never used the switches. Believe it or not, those amps never broke.

Standby can in fact damage a tube, from an effect known as 'cathode poisoning', if you leave an amp in standby for too long.
I don't give a shit if you listen to me or not
#8
Quote by theryanwhite
Sorry Kevin, but you are wrong.

Since you seem to doubt my knowledge, please take a look at what Fender has to say about the standby switch. Last time I checked, they knew a thing or two about amplifiers.

http://www.fender.com/news/index.php?display_article=461

Please do some research before spouting off incorrect information.



They forgot some important shit in there. Plus warm up time is off. Horrible article.
Quote by DeathByDestroyr
See, it's important that people clarify when they say "metal", because I pretty much always assume they are a Cannibal Corpse fanboi.
#9
Quote by Kevin Saale
Thats true, for high power amps, not for smaller amps. If it was true, how can tubes in something like a blues jr or a pro jr survive, since those amps have no standby switches? I've owned 3 tubes amps 2 of which hand standby switches and I never used the switches. Believe it or not, those amps never broke.

Standby can in fact damage a tube, from an effect known as 'cathode poisoning', if you leave an amp in standby for too long.


x10
Quote by DeathByDestroyr
See, it's important that people clarify when they say "metal", because I pretty much always assume they are a Cannibal Corpse fanboi.
#10
Quote by R45VT
They forgot some important shit in there. Plus warm up time is off. Horrible article.


O wow, just read it all the way through, that is...bad.

Quote by R45VT
x10


I don't give a shit if you listen to me or not
#11
Quote by theryanwhite
Sorry Kevin, but you are wrong.

Since you seem to doubt my knowledge, please take a look at what Fender has to say about the standby switch. Last time I checked, they knew a thing or two about amplifiers.

http://www.fender.com/news/index.php?display_article=461

Please do some research before spouting off incorrect information.


Here is a much more complete article.

http://www.peavey.com/support/technotes/hartley/chapter_6.pdf

Read and learn.
Quote by DeathByDestroyr
See, it's important that people clarify when they say "metal", because I pretty much always assume they are a Cannibal Corpse fanboi.
#12
Quote by R45VT
Here is a much more complete article.

http://www.peavey.com/support/technotes/hartley/chapter_6.pdf

Read and learn.


Good article. I imagine pretty much any amp with a solid state rectifier would have inrush current limiters. I'm sure an SS rectifier circuit would reach max voltage as quickly or quicker than a directly heated rectifier tube and would be prone to killing tubes.
I don't give a shit if you listen to me or not
#13
Quote by Kevin Saale
Good article. I imagine pretty much any amp with a solid state rectifier would have inrush current limiters. I'm sure an SS rectifier circuit would reach max voltage as quickly or quicker than a directly heated rectifier tube and would be prone to killing tubes.



The bad thing is the first link that pops up when you google "standby switch function" is that crappy fender article. Very misleading. Seems like it was written by a cheerleader or someone retarded. Please poison your tubes....
Quote by DeathByDestroyr
See, it's important that people clarify when they say "metal", because I pretty much always assume they are a Cannibal Corpse fanboi.
#14
Quote by R45VT
The bad thing is the first link that pops up when you google "standby switch function" is that crappy fender article. Very misleading. Seems like it was written by a cheerleader or someone retarded. Please poison your tubes....


Bad, but not surprising. The article is downright silly when you put amps like the blues jr or the pro jr in its light. Just doesn't make sense. And for the record, those are both diode rectified amps
I don't give a shit if you listen to me or not
#15
12ax7.

EDIT: I may or may not have actually read anything in this thread before replying...
#16
Quote by Big Bang
12ax7.

EDIT: I may or may not have actually read anything in this thread before replying...


I honestly love this reply. Its dumb and obvious, in a clearly jokingly way. Congrats to you. You win .04 internets. A fine prize for 16 words and only one that matters.
I don't give a shit if you listen to me or not
#17
Quote by Kevin Saale
Bad, but not surprising. The article is downright silly when you put amps like the blues jr or the pro jr in its light. Just doesn't make sense. And for the record, those are both diode rectified amps





Good one BigBang.
Quote by DeathByDestroyr
See, it's important that people clarify when they say "metal", because I pretty much always assume they are a Cannibal Corpse fanboi.
#18
Quote by theryanwhite
Sorry Kevin, but you are wrong.

Since you seem to doubt my knowledge, please take a look at what Fender has to say about the standby switch. Last time I checked, they knew a thing or two about amplifiers.

http://www.fender.com/news/index.php?display_article=461

Please do some research before spouting off incorrect information.


you are wrong. and dumb.

please do some research before copy and pasting links to incorrect information.
Prs se Holcomb is the answer
#19
Quote by Kevin Saale
I honestly love this reply. Its dumb and obvious, in a clearly jokingly way. Congrats to you. You win .04 internets. A fine prize for 16 words and only one that matters.



I don't always drunk post, but when I do, it's on Ultimate-Guitar. (Now off to spread around some wisdom on the drum sub-forum. Did you guys know that's actually a real thing here?)
#20
It used to be a huge joke, but yes, I think we know its real.
I don't give a shit if you listen to me or not
#21
very first post and i started an argument. i even impress myself sometimes !
thanks
#22
Yeah, we're quite prone to arguing when false info comes up, but you'll learn that in time. Usually we're civilized enough to make sure the TS has the info he sought first though
I don't give a shit if you listen to me or not
#23
the ruby tubes are in ; now it sounds like a dying duck. i have dialed up all the gains & it is still nowhere near the sound i had before. albeit nowhere near as noisy, either...
#24
Stop raging for a minute and explain a little more.

You changed your preamp tubes? Now what is your problem?

Edit: what is the writing on your Rubys? That will determine we're it is made.

Also what tubes did you pull out?
Quote by DeathByDestroyr
See, it's important that people clarify when they say "metal", because I pretty much always assume they are a Cannibal Corpse fanboi.
Last edited by R45VT at Oct 11, 2012,
#25
the tubes I pulled out had nothing written on them except '12AX7A" in red. humming and crackling started recently. they came in the unit when I got it , (1993) so I dont know what they are. would love to find out...

the ruby tubes have J / J on them. the full model # is 12AX7A CZHG

in the ADA manual: the tube spec is : 12AX7A / 7025
after checking out dougstubes.com, they said the JJ CZ HG is the highest output of12AX7A tubes. but my rig has WAY less volume and crunch than before. do they get louder after several playings ?

I guess I need tube buying 101...
Last edited by admi62 at Oct 12, 2012,
#26
Swap your old tubes back in to make sure it wasn't a bad tube, if the concern is gone then switch in the new tubes until you find the dud.

I hate to say it but I would assume something wasn put back correctly. Check all wiring.
Quote by DeathByDestroyr
See, it's important that people clarify when they say "metal", because I pretty much always assume they are a Cannibal Corpse fanboi.
#27
12AX7A? That could be a 7th generation Shuguang. Does it say what country it was made in?


As for the standby switch argument; you're both right and you are both wrong. It's got a lot to do with history.

Originally the standby switch was added to be used as a standby switch, ie to keep the tubes warm during breaks. This is evident because stereos never had a standby switch and some of those were pretty big. It was a guitar amp specific thing. So it wasn't added to provide safer switch on. Those old tube amps were built with enough headroom to cope with the inrush current and if anything the old Fender guitar amps had even more.
The small practice amps like Champs didn't have a standby originally because they weren't made to be used on stage so you didn't need to put the amp on standby. Don't forget, people were used to having to wait for things to warm up at home - everything was like that.

However, over time a few things happened and today is not yesterday.
1. We discovered that leaving the amp on standby does almost as much damage due cathode poisoning as turning the amp on and off does due to thermal work hardening.
2. Manufacturing's focus shifted from reliability and quality towards profit margin as corporatism/consumerism rose to power.
3. People associate the presence of a standby switch with there being tubes inside.

So where does that leave us now?
Well, the standby switch is primarily used as a safe switch on method only. It limits inrush current because you are turning on the heaters and HT separately. Particularly important when you are cutting costs on your power transformers.
Smart people just turn down the volume during breaks; myself I hit the mute button on my MIDI controller. That way there's no thermal work hardening OR cathode poisoning.

There really should be no need for a standby switch any more - thermistors are cheap and more than capable of limiting inrush current. Howver people expect to see a standby switch on a tube amp so standby switches have stayed with us even though their original purpose has proven to be worse than pointless.

What I want to start doing on amps that aren't faithful clones of the originals is to dispense with the standby switch and replace it with a thermistor and a mute button. Some amps are starting to go down the thermistor path, I'm pretty sure that the Excelsior is built that way (somebody correct me if I'm wrong please). If it isn't the Excelsior I know I saw one in some new amp recently.

TL/DR version
The standby switch is there mainly because people expect to see one on a tube amp. Using it as it was originally designed is dumb. The only useful purpose it provides is to make switch on easier on the transformer, a job that could be done easily by a device that costs less than the switch.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
Last edited by Cathbard at Oct 12, 2012,
#28
Quote by R45VT
Swap your old tubes back in to make sure it wasn't a bad tube, if the concern is gone then switch in the new tubes until you find the dud.

I hate to say it but I would assume something wasn put back correctly. Check all wiring.

+1
Listen to this man.
#29
Quote by R45VT
Swap your old tubes back in to make sure it wasn't a bad tube, if the concern is gone then switch in the new tubes until you find the dud.

I hate to say it but I would assume something wasn put back correctly. Check all wiring.

And yes, this. It's smart to identify the dodgey tubes when you do a full retube. There's no reason to throw away perfectly good tubes, you keep the best ones as spares. All preamp tubes don't fail at once unless hit by lightning - and then tubes will be the least of your worries.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#30
Any thoughts on the Sovtek 12AXWB?
Supposed to have a bottom end "hump" however I've also read Sovtek are hit and miss.
#31
The only Sovtek worth buying is the 12AX7LPS. Those short plate WB's are garbage.

If I were you I'd be putting a JJ ECC803 in there.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#32
thanks much for the advice.
i did put the old ones back in yesterday for comparison - the hum & noise were awful.
the rubies are so quiet i can probably go without the noise gate.
i cranked up both overdrives to 10 & dialed in some distortion on my fx unit (something i have not had to do in nearly 20 yrs i've owned the rig) & its starting to get there.
#33
The JJ ECC803 is a low noise tube with a lot of character. From what you've been saying you'll love it. That Ruby is a JJ ECC83S. If you think that's quiet, wait until you hear the ECC803.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#34
more weirdness : today, i decided to try the one at a time swap. i put an original tube in the back position, and left the ruby in front. the result was fairly pleasing, and not real noisy. i then shut down and swapped positions with the tubes. i can only describe the noise as sounding like a vacuum cleaner a couple rooms away. i swapped the other original for that one, same sound plus worse low end hum. i swapped positions with these tubes, and the result was similar to my first sound. with both rubies in, it sounded like a sheet had been put over the cabinet in comparison to sounds 1 & 4. with both originals in, it screams noise like bloody hell.
someone with a degree in tubeology can probably explain the physics involved here, but i am truly stumped by this.
#36
Your description is a little vague but it sounds like you only have one decent tube amongst the bunch. The first tube in the chain is the one where a noisy tube will have the most detrimental effect. I don't know which one that is on those. Check the manual, it will be the one they call V1.
Buy yourself at least one JJ ECC803 and stick it in V1. Then roll through your other tubes until you find the best one. Now you know what's what and can make an informed decision.

Personally, I'd buy two ECC803's and see what you like most out of two 803's or an Ecc803 and an ECC83S. The ECC83S is a marginally darker sounding tube than the ECC803. In anything but a combo the go is to start with all ECC803 and then try an ECC83S in different places, taking notice of what it changes about the sound. Then from that you can add in as many ECC83S tubes as suits your taste. If an amp is very icepicky then running all ECC83S may be the way to go; if it's boomy, all ECC803.

This is the process you go through even if you have a collection of NOS tubes. You start with a known set of tubes and roll each position with your candidates. It can be a long process in an amp that has a lot of tubes but in your case the truth table is mercifully small.


Oh and Kevin, with a tube rectifier you don't get any HT until the heater in the rectifier gets the cathode firing. In effect they act as a timed turn on and in electronics times the delay is friggin huge. Standby switches are a waste of bloody time on an amp with a tube rectifier.
The problem with SS rectifiers is that as soon as you hit the power the heaters turn on - at exactly the same time as the HT capacitors start to charge.
Add to that that you no longer have a severely restricted reservoir cap size like a tube. So of course you're gonna throw bigger caps in there aren't you? And they do.
So your inrush current is going to be substantially larger aint it? It's being hamerred from all sides. Simultaneous coil energising and bigger caps. You gotta watch yourself.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
Last edited by Cathbard at Oct 14, 2012,
#37
Yeah, but like you said, thermoresistors are cheap and a well made amp with an SS rectifier should have some sort of inrush limiting circuit to protect the amp from people who don't know how to use a standby switch.
I don't give a shit if you listen to me or not
#38
TS- please start over from the beginning and try to make sense.

Why did you want to retube?

What happened after you installed the new tubes that you don't like?

Thanks!
Quote by DeathByDestroyr
See, it's important that people clarify when they say "metal", because I pretty much always assume they are a Cannibal Corpse fanboi.
#39
Agreed, Kevin. Just because the amp is designed around ancient devices doesn't mean that we should be living in the dark ages.
Standby switches are a dumb way to mute the amp and thermistors are cheap. Seriously, wtf?


TS a truth table would be handy - so two columns, one for each valve position. In each row show which tube is in where and beside it write the test result.

Edit: sorry that's three columns aint it?
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
Last edited by Cathbard at Oct 14, 2012,
#40
Yeah, like you said, it all comes down to it being expected.
I don't give a shit if you listen to me or not
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