Poll: Your opinion?
Poll Options
View poll results: Your opinion?
I live in the EU and think the Euro will survive.
13 13%
I live outside the EU and think the Euro will survive.
7 7%
I live in the EU and think the Euro will survive but some countries will leave.
15 15%
I live outside the EU and think the Euro will survive but some countries will leave.
14 14%
I live in the EU and don't give a shit.
3 3%
I live outside the EU and don't give a shit.
14 14%
I'm Welsh and sell sheep for sex so no matter what happens, I'll always have a market.
5 5%
I think the worst is still to come.
15 15%
I fap to Romney.
2 2%
I find it difficult to fap to Romney, but still do.
15 15%
Voters: 103.
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#41
Quote by jambi_mantra
The single currency massively helped your manufacturing sector make you the economic power house you are atm.

Currency has no inherent value, it's only because of manufacturing that currency has value. Spain and Greece could learn something from Germany. They have some great labor laws and an attitude that is very blue-collar.
#42
Quote by mybanez
Alcohol doesn't seem so much to me $50 a carton isn't bad. Video games IMO are worth it as I enjoy them and they keep me happy for a week or so.
Also some how I have never got a fine, it's amazing considering the way I drive so I can't really back you up on that though $180 for going a bit quick is excessive.
It's the smoke $20 for 25 cigarettes, **** that. That's why I smoke rollies.


It is when you can get slabs of better beer in the UK for the equivalent of $25. Also $10 for a pint is ridiculous. Especially when Australian beer is the same price as "imports" most of which are brewed in Australia anyway.
Games should be no more than $70.

Quote by BDR_23
Currency has no inherent value, it's only because of manufacturing that currency has value. Spain and Greece could learn something from Germany. They have some great labor laws and an attitude that is very blue-collar.



The import/export implications of single currency helped Germany more because of their economic bias towards manufacturing. It's why the UK got buttraped by the GFC because all it's economic value is in the finance sector.
No man has the right to be an amateur in the matter of physical training. It is a shame for a man to grow old without seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable


@gossage91
@overtimefitnessau
Last edited by jambi_mantra at Oct 7, 2012,
#43
Quote by jambi_mantra
It is when you can get slabs of better beer in the UK for the equivalent of $25. Also $10 for a pint is ridiculous. Especially when Australian beer is the same price as "imports" most of which are brewed in Australia anyway.
Games should be no more than $70.


A pint is generally $8 in WA and really in my mind $110 for 10+ hours of enjoyment is fair.
#44
Quote by Philip_pepper
I'm in Spain just now and they are discussing the possibility of getting a bail out. What is your opinion?

Greece is a shambles, Ireland is bad, Portugal has rising unemployment, Spain has 25% unemployment which is still rising.

Meanwhile, all of these countries are witnessing ever increasing taxes and riots.

Are bailouts the way out of this crisis? Or are things going to blow up?


Spain will survive if they reform their economy,
So will Italy,
Ireland has proven they can really cut back on spending

don't know about Portugal.

Greece can't survive.

Dropping greece however would mean investors don't trust the other southern countries anymore. So that would mean the Euro breaks apart. They should just have saved greece when it had a debt of 100% of GDP.
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#45
Quote by RiffsanBridges
UK will leave at some point. But they don't contribute much. They're trying as much as they can to participate as little as possible, and let Germany take the big load alone. Sorry if I'm too straight forward but this is how I feel UK is reacting to EU's crisis.


Thing is though, the UK loves to blame its own problems on the euro. So according to the politicians "The economy is bad, everything is expensive and the unemployment is so bad all because of the euro" which is total bollocks. And the UK does benefit from being in the EU, they just never mention it.
#46
Quote by CoreysMonster
It also caused inflation and overtaxation.

The Euro was supposed to be worth around double what the old Deutsche Mark was worth, and by now everything costs the same numeric price that it did back in the 90's with the DM. Did wages go up? Of course not. Sales tax rose from 15% to 19%, and all social and educational programs had their budgets slashed even further than in '89 when the reunification happened.

EDIT: and don't even get me started on the cigarette tax

EDIT2: They also rose the minimum retirement year from 65 to 67, and claim they don't have plans to raise it even further, but everybody knows that it's impossible for the current generation to pay for the older one's retirement, and most likely people in my generation are going to live their lives paying a huge ****ing chunk of money into the freaking retirement fund and won't ever get a penny of it back.

GERMAN RAAAAAAGEEE.


The Euro caused inflation? We have had lower yearly inflation than ever man. And wages did go up. Even though it's a recession we're back at mid 2000 levels qua GDP. It's not that bad.

The Euro was perfect for the Northern countries as it created a system where we benefit from the fact that SOuthern countries have a terrible economy. They don't export -> they import. So they have an import surplus, while we want to have a giant export surplus (so we can get rich). If we (netherlands this time) had our own currency, we would have exported less, as our coin would have risen too much (especially comparable to the DM). Same, but maybe in lesser ways, Germany benefited a lot from it.
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#47
Not really sure, the Euro's future is pretty uncertain. I think it might make it, but if Merkel stops trying or gets replaced it's pretty much boned. Right up until now people have supported trying to fix the Euro, but people are getting more and more fed up with having to bail out every country, again and again, when they can't fix their damn economy.

In papers countries like Greece and Spain come off as spoiled kids who can't handle their economy, refuse to fix it, and still want bailout money. They riot and turn to nationalism to fix their problems. If these images and attitudes take root you'll likely see forms of government in Germany, France and other major players in the pro-Euro side changing, like Merkel getting replaced or Hollande turning to a more populistic and nationalistic approach, simply ignoring everyone abroad because his own people are so fed up with it.

So in short, it might survive, it might not.
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#48
Quote by Neo Evil11
The Euro caused inflation? We have had lower yearly inflation than ever man. And wages did go up. Even though it's a recession we're back at mid 2000 levels qua GDP. It's not that bad.

The Euro was perfect for the Northern countries as it created a system where we benefit from the fact that SOuthern countries have a terrible economy. They don't export -> they import. So they have an import surplus, while we want to have a giant export surplus (so we can get rich). If we (netherlands this time) had our own currency, we would have exported less, as our coin would have risen too much (especially comparable to the DM). Same, but maybe in lesser ways, Germany benefited a lot from it.


This is true.
#49
Quote by Philip_pepper
This is true.


I hope so, I had a 10 for International Macroeconomics and Tradetheory 302.
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#50
Quote by Neo Evil11
I hope so, I had a 10 for International Macroeconomics and Tradetheory 302.


You are now my favourite Dutchman.

Robben can go suck an egg.
#51
Quote by Philip_pepper
You are now my favourite Dutchman.

Robben can go suck an egg.

It makes you wonder why the Southern countries actually joined it. I have read papers saying the reason is that you wanted an independent central bank -> lower inflation. Or maybe the people though it would ignite a lot of foreign interest from companies, or get more money/knowledge to build up their economy.

Some of it happened. But even though the government and companies got really cheap credit (too cheap because the markets forgot to put on a decent risk premium), they spend it wrong and never got the growth they needed. Or maybe because of the costly euro they were doomed in the first place.
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#52
Quote by Neo Evil11
It makes you wonder why the Southern countries actually joined it. I have read papers saying the reason is that you wanted an independent central bank -> lower inflation. Or maybe the people though it would ignite a lot of foreign interest from companies, or get more money/knowledge to build up their economy.

Some of it happened. But even though the government and companies got really cheap credit (too cheap because the markets forgot to put on a decent risk premium), they spend it wrong and never got the growth they needed. Or maybe because of the costly euro they were doomed in the first place.

Loan loan loan, foreign investors foreign investors foreign investors.
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#53
Ha! Speaking of populism and nationalism

Prime Minister David Cameron has said he would veto a new European Union budget "if necessary".

Mr Cameron also told the BBC that the EU should have two different budgets - one for countries in the eurozone and one for those outside the single currency, including Britain.

The EU is beginning negotiations on its next budget for 2014 to 2020.

Last year Mr Cameron vetoed an EU-wide treaty to co-ordinate budget policies and impose penalties on rule-breakers.

Speaking on the Andrew Marr show on the first day of the Conservative Party conference, Mr Cameron said he would block talks if "massive increases" in the budget were proposed or if a deal that "does not have proper control" was put forward.

He said countries could not go on pouring money into the EU while cutting their own national budgets.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19862239
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#54
Quote by Kensai
Loan loan loan, foreign investors foreign investors foreign investors.

It was in my story. It sounds like they were hopelessly blind to the fact that it could go wrong for them.
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#55
Quote by Kensai
Ha! Speaking of populism and nationalism


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19862239



I agree with him
No man has the right to be an amateur in the matter of physical training. It is a shame for a man to grow old without seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable


@gossage91
@overtimefitnessau
#56
Quote by Neo Evil11
It was in my story. It sounds like they were hopelessly blind to the fact that it could go wrong for them.


Probably just reeally desperate.

Quote by jambi_mantra
I agree with him


Problem is that it will have some negative long-term effects for both theirs and your own country. Plus solidarity and all that jazz...
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#57
Quote by Kensai
Probably just reeally desperate.

Problem is that it will have some negative long-term effects for both theirs and your own country. Plus solidarity and all that jazz...

Giving the South money obviously has a negative side: moral hazard effects, losing your elections.

Not giving money to the South: Euro breaking up, world wide recession, losing your elections.

Hmm which one to choose?
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#58
Quote by Kensai
Probably just reeally desperate.


Problem is that it will have some negative long-term effects for both theirs and your own country. Plus solidarity and all that jazz...



If it's implemented long term. But a strong UK economy after say a year away from the EU does the EU more good than 5 years of a shit UK economy. Or atleast that's how I view it. Greater good and all that

No man has the right to be an amateur in the matter of physical training. It is a shame for a man to grow old without seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable


@gossage91
@overtimefitnessau
#59
Quote by jambi_mantra
If it's implemented long term. But a strong UK economy after say a year away from the EU does the EU more good than 5 years of a shit UK economy. Or atleast that's how I view it. Greater good and all that



I don't know why you are talking about the UK in this thread as they are not even part of the Euro system. What happens to the Uk is of no importance to us, especially not if those bastards keep vetoing and are just excluded.
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#60
Quote by jambi_mantra
Honestly, I have no idea other than because they can charge that much. I assume it's because years ago when the aussie dollar was worth ~£2-3 it made sense. If a game is £40 then simple currency conversion would make the Australian price roughly $100. But now the dollar is worth more, the price should have gone down. I can buy a game from the UK and ship it here and still save about $15-20

the middle-man importers are making a killing on everything that comes in. Something I expect to be cracked down on in the near future (hopefully).

and besides, like I've said before stuff may be expensive but we earn more too. I've been payed $20 an hour to wash glasses in pubs and even more than that to stack apples at a supermarket. Shit has always been expensive, I've never had a flattering job (yay, student) and yet I've still never had trouble paying for anything if I really wanted it.

at least we're reasonably well positioned financially in a global sense. You can't have everything.
#61
Quote by Neo Evil11
The Euro caused inflation? We have had lower yearly inflation than ever man. And wages did go up. Even though it's a recession we're back at mid 2000 levels qua GDP. It's not that bad.

The Euro was perfect for the Northern countries as it created a system where we benefit from the fact that SOuthern countries have a terrible economy. They don't export -> they import. So they have an import surplus, while we want to have a giant export surplus (so we can get rich). If we (netherlands this time) had our own currency, we would have exported less, as our coin would have risen too much (especially comparable to the DM). Same, but maybe in lesser ways, Germany benefited a lot from it.

Well that may work on paper and for a percentage of the people, but in my day-to-day life here things have gotten consistantly more expensive, and I have never heard of anybody's wages getting adjusted to newer values after the initial switch to Euros. My dad's wages sure haven't gone up in the past 13 years; I've been working since the mid-2000's, and all the low-entry jobs are all still paid exactly the same - and taxes and prices have definitely gone up a LOT.
Last edited by CoreysMonster at Oct 7, 2012,
#62
Quote by CoreysMonster
Well that may work on paper and for a percentage of the people, but in my day-to-day life here things have gotten consistantly more expensive, and I have never heard of anybody's wages getting adjusted to newer values after the initial switch to Euros. My dad's wages sure haven't gone up in the past 13 years; I've been working since the mid-2000's, and all the low-entry jobs are all still paid exactly the same - and taxes and prices have definitely gone up a LOT.


I don't know where you or your father work, but here in the Netherlands wages go up every year, usually with at least the inflation rate (which has been 2% for the entire EU). My father's wage goes up much more every year, where my mother as a teacher usually just gets the baseline extra.
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#64
Some countries will inevitably have to drop out. But I think Germany, France and others are very sincere in their hopes to keep together at least some form of Eurozone.
#65
Quote by willT08
Some countries will inevitably have to drop out. But I think Germany, France and others are very sincere in their hopes to keep together at least some form of Eurozone.

If any state leaves, half the region becomes unstable. The way i see it there are two options: completely save greece thereby taking away all doubt, but create a moral hazard and have some regions which may never catch up. So more has to bs done to ensure long run growth.

Or quit with the euro and bring the entire world in a depression.
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#66
Quote by Neo Evil11
don't know about Portugal.

We're as bad as it can get, honestly. It may sound differently to you in other countries, maybe you may be watching in the news that Portugal is acting correctly and fixing the economical mess, but the truth is that life is harder each day for people here. Cuts in salaries, more and more taxes, prices rising stupidly and not a single cut in the state expense. People are reaching the threshold, many families do not spend a dime in something other than food and house rent. I seriously don't know how the hell are we gonna recover, we'll be paying our debts for decades, if we can pay them at all.
#67
Quote by Neo Evil11
If any state leaves, half the region becomes unstable. The way i see it there are two options: completely save greece thereby taking away all doubt, but create a moral hazard and have some regions which may never catch up. So more has to bs done to ensure long run growth.

Or quit with the euro and bring the entire world in a depression.

You're the economics major man. But I think it'd be really fricking hard for Merkel and Hollande to justify completely bailing Greece to their people.

Shit's gonna be interesting over the next year or so.
#68
Quote by willT08
You're the economics major man. But I think it'd be really fricking hard for Merkel and Hollande to justify completely bailing Greece to their people.

Shit's gonna be interesting over the next year or so.

They should have bailed out greece years ago. If greece leaves, italian and spanish interest rates would skyrocket even more. The euro would also not be trusted. Panick, panick will ensue.

It is a political problem and it has been. The way it is going, the eurozone cant survive.
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#69
Quote by little_boy
We're as bad as it can get, honestly. It may sound differently to you in other countries, maybe you may be watching in the news that Portugal is acting correctly and fixing the economical mess, but the truth is that life is harder each day for people here. Cuts in salaries, more and more taxes, prices rising stupidly and not a single cut in the state expense. People are reaching the threshold, many families do not spend a dime in something other than food and house rent. I seriously don't know how the hell are we gonna recover, we'll be paying our debts for decades, if we can pay them at all.

It is good that the wages are dropping. They were too high compared to the productivity. The question now is: Why would the prices rise? With dropping wages and dropping demand.
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#70
Quote by Neo Evil11
It is good that the wages are dropping. They were too high compared to the productivity. The question now is: Why would the prices rise? With dropping wages and dropping demand.

Mainly because of taxes. I'll give you an example: this week, the government announced that the incomes from taxes this year has been lower than expected, because people lost purchasing power and have been buying less, obviously. So what did the government do? An average increase of 30% in taxes. I honestly don't know what they expect to accomplish with that, since people will have even less money and wil consume even less.

Also everything is expensive here. Our average salary is smaller than in most countries in the EU, but most products are cheaper in other countries. For instance, cars and gas. A car that costs in Spain around 27k€, here the same car costs around 38k/40k€. The difference is all taxes. Same with gas. We have very few gas stations near the border with Spain, because everyone that lives near the border goes to Spain to buy gas. Diesel is around 20 cents/litre cheaper in Spain.
#71
Quote by little_boy
Mainly because of taxes. I'll give you an example: this week, the government announced that the incomes from taxes this year has been lower than expected, because people lost purchasing power and have been buying less, obviously. So what did the government do? An average increase of 30% in taxes. I honestly don't know what they expect to accomplish with that, since people will have even less money and wil consume even less.

Also everything is expensive here. Our average salary is smaller than in most countries in the EU, but most products are cheaper in other countries. For instance, cars and gas. A car that costs in Spain around 27k€, here the same car costs around 38k/40k€. The difference is all taxes. Same with gas. We have very few gas stations near the border with Spain, because everyone that lives near the border goes to Spain to buy gas. Diesel is around 20 cents/litre cheaper in Spain.

Then you people should have elected the party that would slash the expenditures of the government.
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#72
Quote by Neo Evil11
Then you people should have elected the party that would slash the expenditures of the government.

Politicians lie as hell here. Besides people aren't that intelligent either At least we got the sun and beaches
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