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Caaarrl94
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#1
I think the proper name is the E7#9
but it goes
e-------------
B----8-------
G----7-------
D----6-------
A----7-------
E-------------

i'm curious as to how it fits into songwriting.
i'm quite theory noob, so i'm just learning my basic keys now.
Is there any way this chord can be used where a standard E would normally be used etc? (or slide it down 2 frets and were a standard D would be used, for arguments sake)

What key does this chord fit into?
"I think the most important thing about music is the sense of escape." - Thom Yorke
AlanHB
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#2
Have you ever played a Hendrix song? Where does he use it?
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CorvetteRick
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#3
I didn't know that was a "Hendrix chord". But I do believe that it plays a central role in the song Outside Woman Blues by Cream, so maybe look into that
DeadlyKombat
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#4
That's a blues chord, is it not?
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#5
It's a blues chord. A #9 down an octave is a raised 2. This means that (enharmonically) you have a minor 3rd and a major 3rd in the same chord.
It spells out like this:
1 3 5 b7 #9
E G# B D Fx(or G natural, enharmonically.. but for the sake of spelling the chord, a 9th above E would be an F of some sort)

Put in order it looks
1 #9 3 5 b7
E Fx G# B D

Now play the first 3 notes of the thing above by sliding into the G# from the Fx then back down the E. See how it has that "blusey" sound? Thats where that chord comes from. It's basically just telling you you can use a minor or major 3rd in the melody as you wish.

Because of this, you can use a minor pentatonic scale or the blues scale over the chord, even though both have a minor triad and the chord you're playing over is a major chord.
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sht up u flthy librl foogit stfu u soo mad n butthurdt ur ass is an analpocolypse cuz ur so gay "my ass hrts so mcuh" - u. your rectally vexed n anlly angushed lolo go bck 2 asslnd lolol
rickyvanh
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#6
Check out Purple Haze.You'll see how he uses this chord with low E (open)
Rebel Scum
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#7
Incubus 'you'll be a hot dancer' off their first EP uses it as well at the end of a chromatic riff. Great chord to use but it can be a bit iffy to fit in there.
mdc
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#8
Quote by Caaarrl94
What key does this chord fit into?

A Minor.
chronowarp
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#9
7#9...such a beautiful chord.

Try it as the I in a blues tune...
Or as the V in a minor key.

V nice.

It's really functional in blues since the min/maj3 are always 'in play', so to speak. The #9 is enharmonically the m3 as previously mentioned...so it 'works' in that regard.

Functioning as a V chord...it's just an alteration of the 9th, which adds color and tension to the chord. Usually would see a 7#9 resolving to tonic in a minor key.
Last edited by chronowarp at Oct 10, 2012,
E7#9
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#10
E7#9 is based off of the altered scale, a.k.a the seventh mode of melodic minor (in this case F melodic minor).

Melodic minor is simply natural minor (6th mode of major) with a #6 and #7.

This chord doesn't exist naturally in any key, since melodic minor isn't a key.

It's usually used as a cadential chord V-i in a minor progression.

Not always though. Check out "Hottentot" by John Scofield as an example of it being used a "tonic" chord.


Also it's pure coincedence that's it's also my username...
Last edited by E7#9 at Oct 10, 2012,
Caaarrl94
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#11
i'm not too good with theory so all this 3rds ,5ths, 7ths, 9ths stuff makes no sense to me yet.

How would any 7#9 chord fit into any key?
would it be interchangeable with for example the I chord? or IV chord?
"I think the most important thing about music is the sense of escape." - Thom Yorke
Caaarrl94
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#12
Quote by chronowarp
7#9...such a beautiful chord.

Try it as the I in a blues tune...
Or as the V in a minor key.

V nice.

It's really functional in blues since the min/maj3 are always 'in play', so to speak. The #9 is enharmonically the m3 as previously mentioned...so it 'works' in that regard.

Functioning as a V chord...it's just an alteration of the 9th, which adds color and tension to the chord. Usually would see a 7#9 resolving to tonic in a minor key.


So, if i was playing in C, would i simply use this chord instead of the C? (obviously i would play it rooted at the 3rd fret)
"I think the most important thing about music is the sense of escape." - Thom Yorke
Captaincranky
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#13
Quote by E7#9
E7#9 is based off of the altered scale, a.k.a the seventh mode of melodic minor (in this case F melodic minor).
A long time ago, my guitar teacher told me you can, "play two chords together".

For example: G major
e-1 3 P (G4)
B-2 3 R (D4)
G-3 0 (G3)
D-4 0 (D3)
A-5 2 M (A3)
E- 6 3 I (G2)

Move the middle & index fingers up one string each, leave the other 2. The chord becomes Cadd9

Play E major open

e-1 0
B-2 0
G-3 1
D-4 2
A-5 2
E-6 0

Then, add the notes from G major on the e-1 & B-2 strings, you get

e-1 3
B-2 3
G-3 1
D-4 2
A-5 2 < (this note (B3) is in G major also)
E-6 either X or 0

And you get the Hendrix chord.

I know the idea that the "#9 is not intentional will never fly. But you can sum E Major open and G major open, and come up with the very same "Hendrix chord".

Jus' some food for thought, not tryin' to pick a fight...
Last edited by Captaincranky at Oct 10, 2012,
ledradiofloyd
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#14
Basically just end any blues song with a big ending on the I7#9 (I is symbol for the root).
chronowarp
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#16
Quote by Caaarrl94
So, if i was playing in C, would i simply use this chord instead of the C? (obviously i would play it rooted at the 3rd fret)

If it were a C blues...perhaps it would be an option.
Captaincranky
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#17
Quote by ledradiofloyd
Basically just end any blues song with a big ending on the I7#9 (I is symbol for the root).
Or, you could end on a Imaj7! That would turn everybody's head around, and rather quickly....

Quote by AlanHB
Have you ever played a Hendrix song? Where does he use it?
Foxy Lady, maybe? Purple Haze? Sadly, I wasn't an actual fan.

Well, that's my best, most outrageous, heretical statement for the day.

Although, since it's almost 2:00AM here, I guess I'll have to try really hard to top that in the next 22 hours. (Wish I'd have gotten it in by midnight, then I could have relaxed for a bit)).

Wank, Wank, Wonk, Wank, Wank, Wonk, "'scuse me while I touch the sky". (Meh,go right ahead)?
Last edited by Captaincranky at Oct 11, 2012,
AlanHB
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#18
Quote by E7#9
E7#9 is based off of the altered scale, a.k.a the seventh mode of melodic minor (in this case F melodic minor).


I hate to be picky, but I think this statement is really overthinking it. It may be correct, that this chord contains the notes of some random scale (there are only 12 notes after all), but once you identify this, it does not help you at all. However it can cause confusion as to what this means you're supposed to do with it, or any effect that this statement has on the harmonic context.

A basic understanding of keys will reveal that you can play any note you want, any chord you want, and it will largely have zero effect on the harmonic context of the song. This is just another example of this.

Without attempting to delve into the usefulness of the statement, simply by looking at the chord, and at Hendrix's songs, we can safely assume that Hendrix used this as a chord as an alternative to a major chord, and that's about all you need to know.

No melodic minor, no modes or mumbo jumbo.

But in the end it's the "why" did Hendrix use it in places where he did? It's because he thought it sounded cool.
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AlanHB
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#20
^^^ then he can employ accidentals to accommodate for clashes
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Caaarrl94
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#21
haha thanks guys, really helpful overly helpful if anything, i think AlanHB summed it right up for me
"I think the most important thing about music is the sense of escape." - Thom Yorke
mdc
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#23
Quote by E7#9
E7#9 is based off of the altered scale, a.k.a the seventh mode of melodic minor (in this case F melodic minor).

Melodic minor is simply natural minor (6th mode of major) with a #6 and #7.

This chord doesn't exist naturally in any key, since melodic minor isn't a key.

It's usually used as a cadential chord V-i in a minor progression.

Not always though. Check out "Hottentot" by John Scofield as an example of it being used a "tonic" chord.


Also it's pure coincedence that's it's also my username...

Tune. It moves up a semitone as well, I believe.
Caaarrl94
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#24
If anyone has heard 'Me and my Friends' by RHCP, this is a great example of where i like the sound of it.
How is it used in this song? What key?
"I think the most important thing about music is the sense of escape." - Thom Yorke
chronowarp
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#25
Quote by AlanHB
^^^ then he can employ accidentals to accommodate for clashes

So he should build his improvisational approach around being able to ear out what accidentals fit the chord on the fly?

that...sounds...effective.

Or he could learn a scale that is central to the melodic vocabulary over that type of chord, functioning as an altered dominant (altered scale) and learn to employ it and utilize it over a specific chord type.

Nah...that'd make it too systematic and sensible...
Last edited by chronowarp at Oct 12, 2012,
AlanHB
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#26
^^^ I didn't say anything about using it "on the fly", but if you take note of what non diatonic notes are present in the chord, you can accommodate for them. This sounds much more logical than swapping to a completely different scale which may or may not work depending on how this particular chord is used in the key.
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chronowarp
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#27
Quote by AlanHB
^^^ I didn't say anything about using it "on the fly", but if you take note of what non diatonic notes are present in the chord, you can accommodate for them. This sounds much more logical than swapping to a completely different scale which may or may nother apply depending on how this particular chord is used in the key.


...which would be...

the roundabout way of organizing those relationships with a constant (the altered scale).

When would you not want to use altered as an option over a V7alt? ...Tons of blues/jazz players use altered over it even if it's a I7 in a blues.

Your perspective is really tired and makes less and less sense the more you try to stretch universally over every musical scenario.
Last edited by chronowarp at Oct 12, 2012,
AlanHB
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#28
Ok I'll bite. Do I have to use the altered scale if it has less notes in common with the key than the chord in question does? Does application of this altered scale change depending on whether this chord is the I, V or II? How come Hendrix didn't use the altered scale when that's what he was supposed to do?
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chronowarp
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#29
Quote by AlanHB
Ok I'll bite. Do I have to use the altered scale if it has less notes in common with the key than the chord in question does? Does application of this altered scale change depending on whether this chord is the I, V or II? How come Hendrix didn't use the altered scale when that's what he was supposed to do?


I'll bite...

Your approach, if you want to even call it that, is so vague, condescending, and privileged that I can't even properly deconstruct why I think it's so stupid. In fact, I'm not even sure I understand your approach, since every post you make about subjects like these are "lol scales", "lol accidentals", which only give me a glimpse into your thinking and thereafter I have to fill in the blanks. That's what I mean by privileged: you don't actually disclose or endorse your view - because then you might be responsible for it. Instead, you just inject comments in a matter-of-fact way.

If you want to be able to stay afloat in situations (like Jazz) where you are dealing with more complex, chromatic harmonies that change at a fast rate, then you need to either adopt or create an approach that is somewhat universal to the types of harmonies and sequences you will encounter.

There is no "one size fits all" method, because everyone's brain works differently. HOWEVER, I feel safe in saying, with an amount of certainty, that forming your improvisational approach around "lol scales, useless" is probably the least beneficial and most backwards approach I can think of at this moment in time.

I'm not advocating chord-scales on a scale-per-chord basis, however, if you want to be successful in dealing with altered dominants or any harmony that cannot be derived from the harmonized major scale, then you're going to be in trouble if you don't learn & utilize what the variations of the mel. min scale have to offer.

Not only in using the scale as an organizational tool that offers numerous visual, and tactile benefits like learning and building it around arpeggios in each position, and ingraining in your muscle memory and mind where the various altered extensions of the chord sit relative to the base shape...

But in learning and building that "sound" that is integral to any modern jazz player.

If you're playing a hendrix tune...minor pent over V7#9 - great
If you're not...altered scale.

What other scenarios can you think of that offer a vastly different approach?
What reason does a player have to not fill in the blanks around various chord types w/ the appropriate scales that give you all the applicable extensions of the harmony?
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#30
I don't really understand how "use the altered scale" isn't a "one size fits all" approach, but hey I think we both know eachothers approaches , we disagree and most likely have the same end result.
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chronowarp
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#31
How can you systematically assign a subset of notes used beyond the outline of the harmony without attributing a scale to a chord type?

You build a unique set of notes for each circumstance, and that is supposed to be functionally viable in improvisation?
griffRG7321
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#32
By assigning a particular scale to a chord you are a) limiting your melodic options and b) thinking too much. Try switching scales every chord/few chords of Giant Steps...

Look at the chord, know the basic chord tones, embellish said chord tones.
chronowarp
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#33
Quote by griffRG7321
By assigning a particular scale to a chord you are a) limiting your melodic options and b) thinking too much. Try switching scales every chord/few chords of Giant Steps...

Look at the chord, know the basic chord tones, embellish said chord tones.

Limiting your melodic options....by...building a functional series of notes that match the extended harmonies of a chord around the arpeggio shape of a chord type...

...whhaaatttttt?

Did you read my ****ing post, for the love of God. Do you people read things?
Who the **** treats major ii-V's on a per chord basis? Why would you even bother thinking per chord on giant steps when you can break it up until functional series of ii-V's? Why. Nobody is endorsing or suggesting that.
seljer
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#34
I always loved the use of it on Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon

in the cadence at the end of Breathe where it goes G -> D7#9 -> C° -> Em
griffRG7321
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#35
Quote by chronowarp
Limiting your melodic options....by...building a functional series of notes that match the extended harmonies of a chord around the arpeggio shape of a chord type...


...Making the assumption that the altered scale is the only thing you can play over an altered dominant chord.


Quote by chronowarp
Who the **** treats major ii-V's on a per chord basis? Why would you even bother thinking per chord on giant steps when you can break it up until functional series of ii-V's? Why. Nobody is endorsing or suggesting that.


Some people would. The point was that you haven't got time to think in scales when you're dealing with fast chord changes.
mdc
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#36
Quote by seljer
I always loved the use of it on Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon

in the cadence at the end of Breathe where it goes G -> D7#9 -> C° -> Em

Nice.
mdc
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#38
Steely Dan style intro

Cmaj7 - Bm7#5 - Abma7 - Am7#5
Dmaj7 - Dbm7#5 - Cmaj7 - Bm7#5
Ebmaj7 - E7#9

G13 - F13..... and away you go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEjLMEV-MyA
chronowarp
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#39
Quote by griffRG7321
...Making the assumption that the altered scale is the only thing you can play over an altered dominant chord.

Who assumed that?
Can you show me where I said that?


Quote by griffRG7321

Some people would. The point was that you haven't got time to think in scales when you're dealing with fast chord changes.

What do you have time to think in?

Remember when I said something about there isn't a one-size-fits-all approach to improvisation and organizing notes?
Last edited by chronowarp at Oct 12, 2012,
macashmack
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#40
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