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whiplash_87
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#1
I have a question regarding the 7 modes, I had a friend show me the seven modes so I was memorizing them but I started looking at diagrams of the modes online and saw that it appears I am playing an extra note in each mode, if that doesnt make sense I will demonstrate below.

So this is the layout of the seven modes I found online when I was looking at diagrams:

Ionian                                         
|R|-|o|-|o|
|-|-|o|-|o|
|-|o|o|-|o|
|-|o|R|-|o|
|o|-|o|-|o|
|R|-|o|-|o|
Dorian
|R|-|o|o|-|
|o|-|o|o|-|
|o|-|o|-|-|
|o|-|R|-|o|
|o|-|o|-|o|
|R|-|o|o|-|
Phrygian
|R|o|-|o|
|o|o|-|o|
|o|-|o|-|
|o|-|R|o|
|o|-|o|o|
|R|o|-|o|
Lydian
|R|-|o|-|o|
|o|-|o|-|o|
|-|o|-|o|-|
|-|o|R|-|o|
|-|o|o|-|o|
|R|-|o|-|o|
Mixolydian
|R|-|o|-|o|
|o|-|o|o|-|
|-|o|o|-|-|
|o|-|R|-|o|
|o|-|o|-|o|
|R|-|o|-|o|
Aeolian
|R|-|o|o|-|
|o|o|-|o|-|
|o|-|o|-|-|
|o|-|R|-|o|
|o|-|o|o|-|
|R|-|o|o|-|
Locrian
|R|o|-|o|
|-|o|-|o|
|o|-|o|o|
|o|-|R|o|
|o|o|-|o|
|R|o|-|o|

And this is how I learned to play the modes
Ionian
|R|-|o|-|o|
|o|-|o|-|o|
|-|o|o|-|o|
|-|o|R|-|o|
|o|-|o|-|o|
|R|-|o|-|o|
Dorian
|R|-|o|o|-|
|o|-|o|o|-|
|o|-|o|-|o|
|o|-|R|-|o|
|o|-|o|-|o|
|R|-|o|o|-|
Phrygian
|R|o|-|o|
|o|o|-|o|
|o|-|o|-|o|
|o|-|R|o|
|o|-|o|o|
|R|o|-|o|
Lydian
|R|-|o|-|o|
|o|-|o|-|o|
|-|o|-|o|o|
|-|o|R|-|o|
|-|o|o|-|o|
|R|-|o|-|o|
Mixolydian
|R|-|o|-|o|
|o|-|o|o|-|
|-|o|o|-|o|
|o|-|R|-|o|
|o|-|o|-|o|
|R|-|o|-|o|
Aeolian
|R|-|o|o|-|
|o|o|-|o|-|
|o|-|o|-|o|
|o|-|R|-|o|
|o|-|o|o|-|
|R|-|o|o|-|
Locrian
|-|R|o|-|o|
|o|-|o|-|o|
|-|o|-|o|o|
|-|o|-|R|o|
|-|o|o|-|o|
|-|R|o|-|o|


So My question is why am I playing this extra note in each one of the modes? And is this a correct way of playing them?
fenderbassist12
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#2
I don't understand your layouts of the modes. But you may be playing a repeat note? Since there are 7 notes in a scale, there are 7 different possibilities of standard mode sequences. However you can distort the major scale to add a flat or sharp note and it will change the entire 7 modes. You can even add a note and make an 8 note scale which would have some interesting bizarre sounds.

What note do you think you were playing extra since I can't understand your way of displaying them.
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HotspurJr
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#3
Memorizing the seven modes is pointless. THe modes are not positions.

If you want to learn theory, go to musictheory.net or get a good book on theory a la Shroeder and Wyatt's "Harmony and Theory."

Seriously, this is not useful or meaningful theory in any way. Just stop.
fenderbassist12
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#4
Quote by HotspurJr
Memorizing the seven modes is pointless. THe modes are not positions.

If you want to learn theory, go to musictheory.net or get a good book on theory a la Shroeder and Wyatt's "Harmony and Theory."

Seriously, this is not useful or meaningful theory in any way. Just stop.



False. Every mode system (for example Greek Modes) use the same patterns. The patterns you play are relative to what key you want to play in. Memorizing the patterns of the modes can let you play in any mode as long as you know how to lock into the patterns of that key. I use the same patterns when I'm playing in E Dorian as I am when I am playing in G Locrian. They may not be the same place on the fretboard, but they are the same patterns and they just move depending on what key you want to play in.
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whiplash_87
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#5
Let me try and explain the way I am showing the modes in the previous post, I basically am showing the shape of each mode. So for example...
Ionian was like this
|o|-|o|-|o|
|o|-|o|-|o|
|-|o|o|-|o|
|-|o|o|-|o|
|o|-|o|-|o|
|o|-|o|-|o|

I will show this example using an actual scale as well, I will show F Ionian
|F|-|G|-|A|
|C|-|D|-|E|
|-|A|Bb|-|C|
|-|E|F|-|G|
|Bb|-|C|-|D|
|F|-|G|-|A|

So do you see how G string I play notes A, Bb, and C then down on the B string I play notes C, D, and E? Well when I look at diagrams online it only shows that you play D and E on the B string. Does the layout I used for all seven modes make sense now?
fenderbassist12
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#6
Ohhh I see. Yes that is what I call the D form of the modes. There are 5 forms of the modes which overlap, and if you memorize them, you can find your lock in note and immediately start playing every note in any mode you want by using those patterns.

You aren't playing an extra note because C is part of the F Ionian Scale. The pattern you were looking at may have just not included it to make it simpler?
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whiplash_87
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#7
Quote by fenderbassist12
False. Every mode system (for example Greek Modes) use the same patterns. The patterns you play are relative to what key you want to play in. Memorizing the patterns of the modes can let you play in any mode as long as you know how to lock into the patterns of that key. I use the same patterns when I'm playing in E Dorian as I am when I am playing in G Locrian. They may not be the same place on the fretboard, but they are the same patterns and they just move depending on what key you want to play in.


I was told something similar, basically I was told to memorize these patterns because they are used in all scales it can just vary as to where they will be played on the fretboard
whiplash_87
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#8
Quote by fenderbassist12
Ohhh I see. Yes that is what I call the D form of the modes. There are 5 forms of the modes which overlap, and if you memorize them, you can find your lock in note and immediately start playing every note in any mode you want by using those patterns.

You aren't playing an extra note because C is part of the F Ionian Scale. The pattern you were looking at may have just not included it to make it simpler?


Sorry I don't quite understand your explanation, could give an example or explain it a little more. I really am not to sharp on music theory at all ( as you can probably tell by this post)
fenderbassist12
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#9
Quote by whiplash_87
Sorry I don't quite understand your explanation, could give an example or explain it a little more. I really am not to sharp on music theory at all ( as you can probably tell by this post)


OK you were right with what you said in your last post.

So you wanted to play in F Ionian. The notes in that scale are F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E. You asked originally if you were playing an extra note because the B string didn't include the C on the pattern. If you drew out a fretboard and marked down every F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E on the fretboard, you would see these patterns. So you can start with F and play all of those notes and it will be in the key of Ionian.

However, say that instead you want to play in a different key that fits into F Ionian still. Thats where you lock in to the scales. You can play in C Mixolydian, and it still uses all of the notes in the F Ionian scale: F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E. It just starts with C. So it would be C, D, E, F, G, A, Bb. All it is doing is changing the maj7 to a flat 7. But you can do this with every note in that scale. All you are doing is changing the intervals of the notes relative to the starting note. But you use the same exact pattern in doing so.

So if you want to play in F Ionian you use the pattern you drew out. But if you want to play C Mixolydian, you use the same pattern you drew out, but you just use C as your key note rather than F. Does that make sense?
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AeolianWolf
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#10
Quote by fenderbassist12
False. Every mode system (for example Greek Modes) use the same patterns. The patterns you play are relative to what key you want to play in. Memorizing the patterns of the modes can let you play in any mode as long as you know how to lock into the patterns of that key. I use the same patterns when I'm playing in E Dorian as I am when I am playing in G Locrian. They may not be the same place on the fretboard, but they are the same patterns and they just move depending on what key you want to play in.


modes are a lot more than positions on the fretboard or patterns. i advise you to keep that in mind. if you insist otherwise, then i invite you to tell me how a composition that resolves to E using the notes E F# G A B C# and D cannot be said to be in E minor. not to mention i highly doubt you're ever playing in G locrian - unless you want to tell me you're playing pieces that tonicize half-diminished seventh chords, of course.

and, frankly speaking, if you think E dorian is a key, you need to look into studying some more yourself before asserting your opinions.

TS, if you're really looking to learn some basic theory, try this. you're going down the wrong path right now and you're going to end up in all the wrong places.
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Last edited by AeolianWolf at Oct 15, 2012,
whiplash_87
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#11
Quote by fenderbassist12
OK you were right with what you said in your last post.

So you wanted to play in F Ionian. The notes in that scale are F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E. You asked originally if you were playing an extra note because the B string didn't include the C on the pattern. If you drew out a fretboard and marked down every F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E on the fretboard, you would see these patterns. So you can start with F and play all of those notes and it will be in the key of Ionian.

However, say that instead you want to play in a different key that fits into F Ionian still. Thats where you lock in to the scales. You can play in C Mixolydian, and it still uses all of the notes in the F Ionian scale: F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E. It just starts with C. So it would be C, D, E, F, G, A, Bb. All it is doing is changing the maj7 to a flat 7. But you can do this with every note in that scale. All you are doing is changing the intervals of the notes relative to the starting note. But you use the same exact pattern in doing so.

So if you want to play in F Ionian you use the pattern you drew out. But if you want to play C Mixolydian, you use the same pattern you drew out, but you just use C as your key note rather than F. Does that make sense?


So I understand that if I am playing any of the 7 modes in the F major scale they all will contain the notes C,D,E,F,G,A,Bb and the patterns stay the same for all scales but the root note just changes and that in turn changes the other notes in the scale?

I dont know what maj7 and flat 7 means exactly..... I have a lot to learn I know.
whiplash_87
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#12
modes are a lot more than positions on the fretboard or patterns. i advise you to keep that in mind. if you insist otherwise, then i invite you to tell me how a composition that resolves to E using the notes E F# G A B C# and D cannot be said to be in E minor. not to mention i highly doubt you're ever playing in G locrian - unless you want to tell me you're playing pieces that tonicize half-diminished seventh chords, of course.

and, frankly speaking, if you think E dorian is a key, you need to look into studying some more yourself before asserting your opinions.

TS, if you're really looking to learn some basic theory, try this. you're going down the wrong path right now and you're going to end up in all the wrong places.


....And I am lost,

I understand there is probably a lot more to modes than just the positions, but the positions for each mode stay the same don't they? Isn't it useful info to memorize these patterns? Or am I completely wrong ( I take no offense to your responses) I am hear to learn
AeolianWolf
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#13
Quote by whiplash_87
So I understand that if I am playing any of the 7 modes in the F major scale they all will contain the notes C,D,E,F,G,A,Bb and the patterns stay the same for all scales but the root note just changes and that in turn changes the other notes in the scale?


that's basically the idea behind modes, but if you spend enough time with them and learn more about tonal music, you'll be able to make conclusions for yourself about how useful they really are.

Quote by whiplash_87
I dont know what maj7 and flat 7 means exactly..... I have a lot to learn I know.


these are concepts that will serve you far better than anything involving modes -- i suggest you go to concepts like that. use the link i recommended.

Quote by whiplash_87
....And I am lost,

I understand there is probably a lot more to modes than just the positions, but the positions for each mode stay the same don't they? Isn't it useful info to memorize these patterns? Or am I completely wrong ( I take no offense to your responses) I am hear to learn


pretty much the only thing they're useful for is getting something under your fingers. it's good to learn them as positions of the major scale across the neck, but do yourself a favor and don't think of them as modes, because they're really not.
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Last edited by AeolianWolf at Oct 15, 2012,
whiplash_87
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#14
Quote by AeolianWolf
that's basically the idea behind modes, but if you spend enough time with them and learn more about tonal music, you'll be able to make conclusions for yourself about how useful they really are.


these are concepts that will serve you far better than anything involving modes -- i suggest you go to concepts like that. use the link i recommended.


pretty much the only thing they're useful for is getting something under your fingers. it's good to learn them as positions of the major scale across the neck, but do yourself a favor and don't think of them as modes, because they're really not.


I think someone else referred that link as well, I will check it out. and as far as calling them modes goes I will try not to do that I wasn't sure what I should have technically called them in the post.

I have another question for you, you said to learn them as the positions of the major scale but are they not the same for a minor scale?
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#15
Quote by AeolianWolf
if you insist otherwise, then i invite you to tell me how a composition that resolves to E using the notes E F# G A B C# and D cannot be said to be in E minor..


E minor just indicates there is a flat 3. That scale you showed is in E Aeolian. I don't know what you are trying to say about modes just being positions on a fretboard because they are not, the positions just help you play the modes.

Quote by AeolianWolf
not to mention i highly doubt you're ever playing in G locrian - unless you want to tell me you're playing pieces that tonicize half-diminished seventh chords, of course.



When I'm playing in G locrian I just use G as the root note and play other notes consisting of G#, Bb, C, C#, F, and G. Usually I would focus my bassline on the tension between the C and the C#, as that is what is unique to G locrian.

Quote by AeolianWolf

and, frankly speaking, if you think E dorian is a key, you need to look into studying some more yourself before asserting your opinions.



Can you explain why E dorian is not a key? I see E dorian as a scale with a 2, flat 3, 4, 5, 6, flat 7. Its just variation to the minor scale along with melodic and harmonic minor.
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#16
Quote by fenderbassist12
When I'm playing in G locrian I just use G as the root note and play other notes consisting of G#, Bb, C, C#, F, and G. Usually I would focus my bassline on the tension between the C and the C#, as that is what is unique to G locrian.

Wow! Just, wow.

Anyway, "in the key of E Mixolydian"
4th paragraph.

Isn't his name like Steve Vai or something?
Last edited by mdc at Oct 15, 2012,
fenderbassist12
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#17
Quote by mdc
Wow! Just, wow.


After reading that I realize I left out the Eb in that scale. But do you have anything else to say?
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#18
Quote by fenderbassist12
After reading that I realize I left out the Eb in that scale. But do you have anything else to say?

Still wow, just wow.
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#19
So do you want to correct me?
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#21
Quote by mdc
In a diatonic scale you can only use a letter once.


...ok sorry I didn't know that rule but you still know what I meant.
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#22
Quote by fenderbassist12
...ok sorry I didn't know that rule but you still know what I meant.

When I'm playing in G locrian I just use G as the root note and play other notes consisting of G#, Bb, C, C#, F, and G. Usually I would focus my bassline on the tension between the C and the C#, as that is what is unique to G locrian.

If it contained those notes, and the Eb which you added, then the formula would be R #1 b3 4 #4 b6 b7 R

Which just isn't correct.
Macabre_Turtle
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#23
Whiplash, you're jumping way too far ahead of where you're ready too be. It's like trying to learn calculus before you learn algebra.

Just start with major and minor scales (Understanding the intervals they have, NOT just fretboard patterns), and chord construction using musictheory.net. Forget you were ever interested in modes.

EDIT: To add to the discussion that is already happening...
Modes cannot be keys, even if Steve Vai says so. Major and Minor are the only keys. The key really only tells you what triad the piece resolves to. Even if your song manages to be in say, E Phrygian, the key is still E minor.
Last edited by Macabre_Turtle at Oct 15, 2012,
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#24
Quote by fenderbassist12
Can you explain why E dorian is not a key? I see E dorian as a scale with a 2, flat 3, 4, 5, 6, flat 7. Its just variation to the minor scale along with melodic and harmonic minor.


Can you show me some sheet music that is clearly labeled as being in the key of E Dorian? And you seem to have caught the idea that AeolianWolf is trying to point out to you. Dorian is just a variation of the natural minor scale, like the melodic and harmonic minors, but their use does not change the key of the piece from E minor so why should Dorian?

To TS,
What you will accomplish by learning things in this manner is an empty understanding of how music is created. It will probably make you into a fast, but less than steller lead guitarist, and an even worse musician. Take Hotspur's advice and learn theory the proper way if that is your goal. If you wish to continue in your current path then at least learn songs by ear so that you will gain an ear for music rather than aimlessly plowing up and down scales and appegios like there's no tomorrow. The world has enough bland shredders for my taste.
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HotspurJr
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#25
Quote by fenderbassist12
...ok sorry I didn't know that rule but you still know what I meant.


It's a really basic rule, and the fact that you didn't know it is telling.

Beceause you're making all sorts of other ore sophisticated mistakes.

TO the OP:

The reason why you don't have to memorize the "7 modes" as fretboard positions is that they're all the same. If you learn the major and minor scales, you will know the modes by the time you get to a point where it makes any sense at all to use them.

But the simple truth is that they're really not very important at all.

Compared to stuff like chord construction and chord function, they're basically useless. 99% of the music you listen to doesn't use the modes.

But the biggest problem with modes-as-shapes-on-the-fretboard is that it facilitates a misunderstanding of how you solo and compose. You see, people who learn with this approach invariably make a mistake: they think of a scale as a series of interchangeable "safe notes" and they think that they way to change the sound of your solo is to change scales.

In other words, they substitute knowledge of fretboard patterns for knowledge of how to actually use a scale. And the result is very uninteresting, cookie-cutter-ish music.
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#26
Quote by fenderbassist12
E minor just indicates there is a flat 3. That scale you showed is in E Aeolian. I don't know what you are trying to say about modes just being positions on a fretboard because they are not, the positions just help you play the modes.

When I'm playing in G locrian I just use G as the root note and play other notes consisting of G#, Bb, C, C#, F, and G. Usually I would focus my bassline on the tension between the C and the C#, as that is what is unique to G locrian.

Can you explain why E dorian is not a key? I see E dorian as a scale with a 2, flat 3, 4, 5, 6, flat 7. Its just variation to the minor scale along with melodic and harmonic minor.


scale =/= key. just because something is a scale doesn't mean it has its own key. there is no dorian key, there is no locrian key (god forbid), there is no phrygian dominant key, there is no lydian b7 key. there are only two keys, major and minor. no matter what, that will never change. if you play an E dorian scale, you are playing in E minor (other possibilities exist, depending on what you tonicize, but let's assume you tonicize E) using a C# as an accidental. i don't care how you phrase it, orchestrate it, treat it, whatever. you're playing in E minor.

people often say there are three ways to play: tonally, modally, and atonally. in fact there are only two: tonally (having a tonal center) and atonally (not having a tonal center). anything that can be expressed modally can be expressed tonally (although the reverse is not true). this is part of why i say the modal system is obsolete. unless you're talking about renaissance music, where things were done very differently than they are today, modes do not come into play at all.

there are a lot of good posts on the second page of this thread, which i hadn't checked before writing any of this until this paragraph . the edit that macabre_turtle placed in his post is a pretty succinct explanation of the type of thinking i utilize.
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Macabre_Turtle
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#27
Quote by AeolianWolf


there are a lot of good posts on the second page of this thread, which i hadn't checked before writing any of this until this paragraph . the edit that macabre_turtle placed in his post is a pretty succinct explanation of the type of thinking i utilize.


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#28
Quote by mdc
If it contained those notes, and the Eb which you added, then the formula would be R #1 b3 4 #4 b6 b7 R

Which just isn't correct.



Well thats one way to say it, but I look at it like R b2, b3, 4, b5, b6, b7, which is correct, so everything is flat except the 4, which is why locrian is 'devils music.'


And OK I understand sheet music isn't written in modes, only in minor and major. I'm not really talking about sheet music. The way I approach is my band sits down to jam. I say I'm going to play in E phrygian. So then the guitarist knows when he is playing lead to play notes such as the flat 2 and the flat 6 which are intervals important in the phrygian scale.


Quote by HotspurJr
It's a really basic rule, and the fact that you didn't know it is telling.

Beceause you're making all sorts of other ore sophisticated mistakes.

TO the OP:

The reason why you don't have to memorize the "7 modes" as fretboard positions is that they're all the same. If you learn the major and minor scales, you will know the modes by the time you get to a point where it makes any sense at all to use them.

But the simple truth is that they're really not very important at all.

Compared to stuff like chord construction and chord function, they're basically useless. 99% of the music you listen to doesn't use the modes.

But the biggest problem with modes-as-shapes-on-the-fretboard is that it facilitates a misunderstanding of how you solo and compose. You see, people who learn with this approach invariably make a mistake: they think of a scale as a series of interchangeable "safe notes" and they think that they way to change the sound of your solo is to change scales.

In other words, they substitute knowledge of fretboard patterns for knowledge of how to actually use a scale. And the result is very uninteresting, cookie-cutter-ish music.


I'm going to have to disagree with you. Its easy to make that cookie-cutter-ish music when you are just learning the patterns, but I have heard some of the best lead melodies executed very nicely from this style of learning after years of experience.

And you say it is pointless because 99% of music doesn't use the modes. Is that a reason to not learn? This was one of the reasons why I like using modes so much because you can produce sounds that are very interesting and exotic, which you may have not heard before. I guess I'm from the POV of making my own music rather than playing what is written out for me.

Also chord construction and chord formation are essentially part of the modes. So I'm not sure why everyone is telling TS to disregard what he is trying to learn. I say keep at it, and you will make some of the best music you have never heard before.
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Last edited by fenderbassist12 at Oct 15, 2012,
mdc
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#29
Quote by fenderbassist12
Well thats one way to say it, but I look at it like R b2, b3, 4, b5, b6, b7, so everything is flat except the 4, which is why locrian is 'devils music.'


And OK I understand sheet music isn't written in modes, only in minor and major. I'm not really talking about sheet music. The way I approach is my band sits down to jam. I say I'm going to play in E phrygian. So then the guitarist knows when he is playing lead to play notes such as the flat 2 and the flat 6 which are intervals important in the phrygian scale.

... and what is this E Phrygian chord progression?
Sean0913
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#30
Quote by AeolianWolf
i highly doubt you're ever playing in G locrian - unless you want to tell me you're playing pieces that tonicize half-diminished seventh chords, of course.


Yeah, and that *aren't* functioning as rootless Dominants!

AW, from a purely "bromantic" point of view... I love you man... That made my day!

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at Oct 15, 2012,
fenderbassist12
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#31
Quote by mdc
... and what is this E Phrygian chord progression?


Hmm well there are tons of options.

One would be something like

[2 measures of Em7, 1 measure of Cmaj7, half a measure of Dm7, half a measure of Fmaj7] then repeat


You just basically have 7 chords to play from in E phrygian.

Em7, Fmaj7, G7, Am7, B half diminished, Cmaj7, Dm7

and then just create whatever progressions you want with those, focusing E as the root note.
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whiplash_87
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#32
dang this thread blew up since I last looked, anyways I see a number of responses saying to forget these positions but my question is this..

If I am playing a major scale such as F or C or G or whatever it may be don't the positions that I mapped out in the original post stay the same? By that I mean the Ionian pattern or Dorian pattern for example is the same regardless of which scale i am in it just changes the location on the fretboard due to the root note changing for the specified scale I am playing in? And by memorizing these positions doesnt that help memorize intervals because its just showing how to fret the intervals for each position?
mdc
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#33
^ Yes. sing it as you play it. Then play it in diatonic 3rds... sing that.

Then 4ths, sing that.

It gets harder as the intervals get larger.

... as does the fingering. 5ths, 6ths, 7ths.
Last edited by mdc at Oct 15, 2012,
HotspurJr
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#34
Quote by fenderbassist12

I'm going to have to disagree with you. Its easy to make that cookie-cutter-ish music when you are just learning the patterns, but I have heard some of the best lead melodies executed very nicely from this style of learning after years of experience.


Fine. THen learn how to use the modes after you have years of experience. Not as a first step towards learning theory, the way the original poster is approaching the.


And you say it is pointless because 99% of music doesn't use the modes. Is that a reason to not learn? This was one of the reasons why I like using modes so much because you can produce sounds that are very interesting and exotic, which you may have not heard before.


Except that you're not, really. These aren't "new" sounds - they're sounds that we're all familiar with.

THe issue is that most of the time it makes more sense to think of them as a series of accidentals on the major scale than as some other scale. In other words, if you can't conceive of a statement like "F, but the 4ths are sharp" and apply it just based on that knowledge, then throwing words like "Lydian" around is more confusing than enlightening.


I guess I'm from the POV of making my own music rather than playing what is written out for me.


I haven't suggested a damn thing about writing down music one way or the other. And from the standpoint of making music, I'll take the music from the guy who doesn't know the modes at all, but knows how to use the major and minor scale, EVERY DAY, over the guy who uses modes but doesn't functionally understand them.

Also chord construction and chord formation are essentially part of the modes. So I'm not sure why everyone is telling TS to disregard what he is trying to learn.


No, chord construction is not "part of modes." That's just complete nonsense. You can learn all about chord construction without ever using the word "mode," or talking about any concept that implies modes.

I say keep at it, and you will make some of the best music you have never heard before.


Give that he knows almost no theory, I think it makes a lot more sense for him to learn the fundamentals, first. And that ain't modes.
whiplash_87
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#35
Quote by Macabre_Turtle
Whiplash, you're jumping way too far ahead of where you're ready too be. It's like trying to learn calculus before you learn algebra.

Just start with major and minor scales (Understanding the intervals they have, NOT just fretboard patterns), and chord construction using musictheory.net. Forget you were ever interested in modes.

EDIT: To add to the discussion that is already happening...
Modes cannot be keys, even if Steve Vai says so. Major and Minor are the only keys. The key really only tells you what triad the piece resolves to. Even if your song manages to be in say, E Phrygian, the key is still E minor.


yeah learning scales was basically how this all started but the person who taught me these patterns said that he is not a really schooled musician and he uses patterns more when he is writing solos and things for songs.

This might be a stupid question but arent these shapes going to map out the intervals? What I mean is if I am playing the F major scale the intervals are WWHWWWH correct? And the diagram that I drew in the original post are just showing these as a pattern instead of actually figuring out which notes to play?
whiplash_87
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#36
Quote by mdc
^ Yes. sing it as you play it. Then play it in diatonic 3rds... sing that.

Then 4ths, sing that.

It gets harder as the intervals get larger.

... as does the fingering. 5ths, 6ths, 7ths.


I think I am retarded because I dont understand this
HotspurJr
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#37
Quote by whiplash_87
dang this thread blew up since I last looked, anyways I see a number of responses saying to forget these positions but my question is this..

If I am playing a major scale such as F or C or G or whatever it may be don't the positions that I mapped out in the original post stay the same?


It's hard for me to understand what you're asking here. I think the answer is yes: the C major scale has the same pattern as the G major scale, it's just moved up the neck 7 frets.

And by memorizing these positions doesnt that help memorize intervals because its just showing how to fret the intervals for each position?


I'm not quite sure what you mean by memorizing intervals. Memorizing intervals is a lot easier than memorizing a bunch of patterns on the fretboard - so why would you memorize the hard thing to help you learn the easy thing rather than vice versa?

If you want to learn the fretboard (and it's a good idea) I strongly recommend the CAGED system. This breaks the neck down into five "patterns" which interlock. "The Guitar Fretboard Workbook" is a good introduction to it. ANd yes, it mentions modes - but you learn modes almost incidentally, as a different way of approaching the patterns you already have learned.
mdc
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#38
Quote by whiplash_87
I think I am retarded because I dont understand this

Retarded? ****, that's not good
Scowmoo
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#39
Quote by fenderbassist12
False. Every mode system (for example Greek Modes) use the same patterns. The patterns you play are relative to what key you want to play in. Memorizing the patterns of the modes can let you play in any mode as long as you know how to lock into the patterns of that key. I use the same patterns when I'm playing in E Dorian as I am when I am playing in G Locrian. They may not be the same place on the fretboard, but they are the same patterns and they just move depending on what key you want to play in.


The fact that you refer to modes and keys in the same sentence shows that you really have no clue what you're talking about.


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whiplash_87
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#40
Quote by HotspurJr
It's hard for me to understand what you're asking here. I think the answer is yes: the C major scale has the same pattern as the G major scale, it's just moved up the neck 7 frets.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by memorizing intervals. Memorizing intervals is a lot easier than memorizing a bunch of patterns on the fretboard - so why would you memorize the hard thing to help you learn the easy thing rather than vice versa?


If you want to learn the fretboard (and it's a good idea) I strongly recommend the CAGED system. This breaks the neck down into five "patterns" which interlock. "The Guitar Fretboard Workbook" is a good introduction to it. ANd yes, it mentions modes - but you learn modes almost incidentally, as a different way of approaching the patterns you already have learned.


Sorry for the confusion, I mentioned those scales as examples, but my question was if I am playing any major scale the patterns that I drew out will stay the same they just move with the root note correct?

basically I was shown these patterns and told they are the same for all major scales, so i have basically been practicing memorizing them. Basically though these patterns are just showing the intervals right?

This whole thing started with me trying to learn the fretboard, and these patterns were kind of the first thing I was told to memorize. Obviously I am not getting too far and its quite frustrating so I am trying to figure out where to go from here.
Last edited by whiplash_87 at Oct 15, 2012,
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