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Caaarrl94
Registered User
Join date: Sep 2012
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#1
okay so i've been playing a couple years and am pretty comfortable, but i never bothered learning all my scales and keys.

Just a couple really quick questions

1. For whatever key I play in, will the available chord movements be exactly the same?
ie. if i'm playing in Bm and go from Bm to A to G etc
Does that mean if i play in Am, i simply go from Am to G to F.
"I think the most important thing about music is the sense of escape." - Thom Yorke
lbc_sublime
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#2
Quote by Caaarrl94
okay so i've been playing a couple years and am pretty comfortable, but i never bothered learning all my scales and keys.

Just a couple really quick questions

1. For whatever key I play in, will the available chord movements be exactly the same?
ie. if i'm playing in Bm and go from Bm to A to G etc
Does that mean if i play in Am, i simply go from Am to G to F.


Somewhat depends what your trying to do. If those are actually the correct chords for the keys basically yes it's like using a capo.

You'll see singers change keys like this as they get older and loose some vocal range.
song stuck in my head today


Caaarrl94
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#3
So in reality, I only have to learn one Key?
"I think the most important thing about music is the sense of escape." - Thom Yorke
AeolianWolf
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Join date: Jul 2009
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#4
Quote by Caaarrl94
So in reality, I only have to learn one Key?


let me ask you a question - you gave a progression earlier in this thread (Bm - Amaj - Gmaj). if you had to move that to G minor, what chords would you have to play?
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lbc_sublime
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#5
Quote by Caaarrl94
So in reality, I only have to learn one Key?


No what your talking about is "cheats" you can use these because the interval spacings are constant.

If your playing with a guy and he plays a song in G then another in say C you don't want to sit there trying to harmonize by changing your shapes around till you get into the right key.
song stuck in my head today


TK1
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#6
Quote by Caaarrl94
So in reality, I only have to learn one Key?

As far as how they are structured, that is correct. If you learn how a major key is made with intervals, then you can build whatever key you want by changing the root note. A major key has 7 diatonic chords, and their structure stays the same as well.
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AlanHB
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#7
TS what do you think a key is?

I mean, do you only have to learn one? Well there's only two, major and minor. From there you refer to the tonal center to determine the exact notes. If this doesn't make sense, what do you think a key is?
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gumbilicious
beginner
Join date: Oct 2007
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#8
Quote by Caaarrl94
okay so i've been playing a couple years and am pretty comfortable, but i never bothered learning all my scales and keys.

Just a couple really quick questions

1. For whatever key I play in, will the available chord movements be exactly the same?
ie. if i'm playing in Bm and go from Bm to A to G etc
Does that mean if i play in Am, i simply go from Am to G to F.


a key in western music is some derived interval pattern based on 12 unique notes. most keys are based on diatonic scales (some permutation on whole-whole-half-whole-whole-whole-half step sequence). there are plenty of other ways of going about 'deriving' scales, like strictly interval based (diminished or augmented scales) or maximizing particular intervals (melodic/harmonic minor) or just picking strong sounding notes of the diatonic (pentatonic), etc

how you apply scales (like those diatonic scales) can be very firmly based in certain relationships, like you can use Am->G maj->F maj (though you could also use Am -> Em -> Dm and many others) to play in Am. this is known as 'serial music' or 'serial composition', to base your music off of very concrete musical relationship and to never deviate from these known relationships.

there is also more abstract music techniques. for example, play A maj -> D maj -> E maj and solo over it in A minor. that is pretty much a A maj progression, and you can solo over it in A minor if done properly.

you want a more abstract one? play a A maj 7 chord to a G maj 7 chord, you can solo over that in E maj or A maj. now play an A dominate 7 to G dominate 7, you can still solo over it in the same keys. why? just figured it out one day (i kinda know, but it is not based on serial ideas)

it is best to start serially to have some grounded knowledge in what you're doing. learn how to derive all the basic 1->3->5 chords in A minor, there will pretty much be 7 of them:
-A min
-B dim (B, D, and F)
-C maj
-D min
-E min
-F maj
-G maj

figure out how i did that. then start doing it for other keys. then start writing songs with that. then start finding out how to break these rules.
punk isn't dead, it's always smelled that way.

"A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem."
-ae
Last edited by gumbilicious at Oct 27, 2012,
AeolianWolf
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#9
Quote by gumbilicious
a key in western music is some derived interval pattern based on 12 unique notes. most keys are based on diatonic scales (some permutation on whole-whole-half-whole-whole-whole-half step sequence). there are plenty of other ways of going about 'deriving' scales, like strictly interval based (diminished or augmented scales) or maximizing particular intervals (melodic/harmonic minor) or just picking strong sounding notes of the diatonic (pentatonic), etc


"most keys"? there are only two types of keys. the fact that you think permutations of WWHWWWH are involved is pretty indicative of the fact that you don't own this information very well.

Quote by gumbilicious
how you apply scales (like those diatonic scales) can be very firmly based in certain relationships, like you can use Am->G maj->F maj (though you could also use Am -> Em -> Dm and many others) to play in Am. this is known as 'serial music' or 'serial composition', to base your music off of very concrete musical relationship and to never deviate from these known relationships.


there's a lot more to the concept of serialism that needs to be stated, because what you've given is a gross oversimplification. and even if we were to get into that, TS doesn't even know what a key is, and you want to tell him about serialism? i understand you want to sound smart, but you should have a good grasp on the information you're trying to impart, and, frankly, i'm not seeing that.

Quote by gumbilicious
there is also more abstract music techniques. for example, play A maj -> D maj -> E maj and solo over it in A minor. that is pretty much a A maj progression, and you can solo over it in A minor if done properly.


you'd still be soloing over it in A major. it would never be in A minor. you should stop thinking in scales and start thinking in keys. first, it allows you to see the bigger picture (which, put simply, is needlessly and excruciatingly difficult if you think in scales), and secondly, we're discussing keys here, not scales.

Quote by gumbilicious
you want a more abstract one? play a A maj 7 chord to a G maj 7 chord, you can solo over that in E maj or A maj. now play an A dominate 7 to G dominate 7, you can still solo over it in the same keys. why? just figured it out one day (i kinda* know, but it is not based on serial ideas)


this paragraph right here makes it completely evident that you yourself aren't even fully aware of keys. if you're going to try to tell me that A7 - G7 (even Amaj7 - Gmaj7, for that matter) is somehow in the key of E major (or even related to E major), you just don't know what you're talking about. in both cases they'd be extremely likely to be in the key of A major.

Quote by gumbilicious
it is best to start serially to have some grounded knowledge in what you're doing. learn how to derive all the basic 1->3->5 chords in A minor, there will pretty much be 7 of them:
-A min
-B dim (B, D, and F)
-C maj
-D min
-E min
-F maj
-G maj

figure out how i did that. then start doing it for other keys. then start writing songs with that. then start finding out how to break these rules.


what happened to Emaj and Gº? again, there's a lot more that needs to be covered that TS isn't ready for...yet.

what TS needs is experience, not tips, tricks, and formulae from people who try to use them as a substitute for experience. TS, you need to buckle down and study theory. it's not the kind of thing you'll be able to slight. the more effort you put into it, the better you'll be. if you don't put in the effort, then you're going to have a stilted knowledge of these concepts (if any knowledge at all).
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gumbilicious
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#10
wow, i am a total idiot. thanx for putting me in my place. tearing me down has been pretty constructive for you.

i will freely admit i oversimplified, that evidently is a very grievous error here.
punk isn't dead, it's always smelled that way.

"A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem."
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Caaarrl94
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#11
I have been mind****ed.
"I think the most important thing about music is the sense of escape." - Thom Yorke
:-D
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#12
Quote by gumbilicious
wow, i am a total idiot. thanx for putting me in my place. tearing me down has been pretty constructive for you.

i will freely admit i oversimplified, that evidently is a very grievous error here.

being wrong is being wrong, breaux

being wrong and inviting others to join you in wrongville is no good either

if you actually make posts with correct information, people will agree with you

if you learn from this, your anus won't need a baby brother again
AeolianWolf
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#13
Quote by :-D
being wrong is being wrong, breaux

being wrong and inviting others to join you in wrongville is no good either

if you actually make posts with correct information, people will agree with you

if you learn from this, your anus won't need a baby brother again


this is how things work in life. there's no excuse for being wrong, and there's no excuse for teaching others wrong information. if you knew what the hell you were talking about, i absolutely would have agreed with you. i don't care about tearing you down -- doing that is a waste of my time. i already know my shit. TS doesn't, and i'm saving him a lot of time an effort by giving him methods that will get him better results..

if you want to sit here and bitch about me tearing you down rather than accept the possibility that you might be wrong and have much to improve on, it might be why you have wrong information in the first place, or why you don't have the results you're looking for.
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AeolianWolf
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#15
Quote by macashmack
I can't pick up passive aggressiveness and sarcasm on the internet.


i'm not passively aggressive at all - i'm actively aggressive. passive-aggressiveness is for cowards who can't get what they want unless they stab people in the back.
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macashmack
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#16
Quote by AeolianWolf
i'm not passively aggressive at all - i'm actively aggressive. passive-aggressiveness is for cowards who can't get what they want unless they stab people in the back.


I wasn't talking about you (and i agree with your passive aggressive comment, i am also more overt aggressive in my nature) i was referring to Gumbilicious post
New Maton
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#17
Quote by TK1
As far as how they are structured, that is correct. If you learn how a major key is made with intervals, then you can build whatever key you want by changing the root note. A major key has 7 diatonic chords, and their structure stays the same as well.

I agree here. I have some Knowlege and schooling and if you are playing in the key of Am which is the same as C except using minors than I think you dont want to change structures. Does that Help?
AeolianWolf
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#18
Quote by New Maton
key of Am which is the same as C except using minors


...wut

do you want to clarify that? if you want, i'll give you another crack at that.
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91RG350
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#19
Quote by macashmack
I can't pick up passive aggressiveness and sarcasm on the internet.

Me either! Isnt it funny how the people on this thread are joking around with each other using insults??? Talk about laugh...!!

Or have I got it wrong...?

Anyone...?

..anyone...?

<<cue cricket chirp noise>>
Quote by AlanHB
It's the same as all other harmony. Surround yourself with skulls and candles if it helps.
Sleepy__Head
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#20
Quote by New Maton
I agree here. I have some Knowlege and schooling and if you are playing in the key of Am which is the same as C except using minors than I think you dont want to change structures. Does that Help?


Well A minor and C major share a key signature (of 'no sharps or flats'), but some forms of the A minor scale (harmonic and ascending melodic) have accidentals (F#, G#) that aren't part of the C major scale.
Quote by Hail
oh shut up with that /mu/ bullshit. fidget house shouldn't even be a genre, why in the world would it deserve its own subgenres you twat
macashmack
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#21
Quote by 91RG350
Me either! Isnt it funny how the people on this thread are joking around with each other using insults??? Talk about laugh...!!

Or have I got it wrong...?

Anyone...?

..anyone...?

<<cue cricket chirp noise>>


I can't tell if your being friendly or belittling me...
but I'll take the benefit of the doubt
arthur_s
Registered User
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#22
It's a kind of major topic to discuss about. The're numerous sources that explain something from this and something from that. A while ago I found a resource that helped me to learn guitar, to know a little bit more about it and also to get familiar with the guitar keys. Here it is: www.guitar-guide-easy.com

I'm sure you'll find useful tips here. It helped me to find new ways of practice
Xter
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#23
A key in simple terms is more of a template. It makes reading sheet music easy if you practice sight reading often. It arranges what sharps or flats are more persisent in a key. Doesn't mean there won't be a sharp, natural, or flat outside the key in the piecie. (For example: In the key of A Major, you might see an F natural somewhere, indicated by a natural sign next to it)

For your question, do you know about constructing chords, about intervals, and harmonizing the major and minor scales? They would be your first step into learning how to effectively use chord progressions. If you rely on a capo to solve this issue you are 1). Limiting your voicings as you go higher on the neck 2). Cheating yourself and 3). Cheating the people you jam with.

Not saying capos are bad, but only when you use it as a crutch to play in different keys.
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Last edited by Xter at Oct 29, 2012,
91RG350
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#24
Quote by macashmack
I can't tell if your being friendly or belittling me...
but I'll take the benefit of the doubt

Being friendly! Sorry you misunderstood!
Quote by AlanHB
It's the same as all other harmony. Surround yourself with skulls and candles if it helps.
gumbilicious
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#25
Quote by AeolianWolf
this is how things work in life. there's no excuse for being wrong, and there's no excuse for teaching others wrong information. if you knew what the hell you were talking about, i absolutely would have agreed with you. i don't care about tearing you down -- doing that is a waste of my time. i already know my shit. TS doesn't, and i'm saving him a lot of time an effort by giving him methods that will get him better results..

if you want to sit here and bitch about me tearing you down rather than accept the possibility that you might be wrong and have much to improve on, it might be why you have wrong information in the first place, or why you don't have the results you're looking for.


there is no passiveness in my aggression. i can use a to help accentuate when i am being sarcastic.

my comment was mainly toward how much more you posted to discredit my post than to answer the TS question in the first place.

you do seem to be more helpful when 'tearing down' (maybe the term 'critiquing' would sound less passive aggressive) another post than addressing the initial answer.

and evidently being wrong is a grievous crime here. it seems pretty unacceptable to from my viewpoint.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QleRgTBMX88

i tend to hold a different point of view on being wrong though.
punk isn't dead, it's always smelled that way.

"A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem."
-ae
Last edited by gumbilicious at Oct 30, 2012,
AeolianWolf
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#26
Quote by gumbilicious
i tend to hold a different point of view on being wrong though.


then that explains your attitude and your lack of results. i mean, if you have to post a seventeen-minute kathryn schulz tirade to try and give yourself credibility...i mean, that's really tantamount to the fallacies in your argument.

is it any wonder you don't have any of the right answers? you're so focused on being wrong. but i digress - if you have a different view on "being wrong" then you are definitely not qualified to educate someone in a subject.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
gumbilicious
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#27
Quote by AeolianWolf
then that explains your attitude and your lack of results. i mean, if you have to post a seventeen-minute kathryn schulz tirade to try and give yourself credibility...i mean, that's really tantamount to the fallacies in your argument.

is it any wonder you don't have any of the right answers? you're so focused on being wrong. but i digress - if you have a different view on "being wrong" then you are definitely not qualified to educate someone in a subject.


it's not about giving myself credibility. but it does concern me that you are more motivated to 'put me in my place' than to give advice to the OP.

you've plainly showed beyond a shadow of a doubt i am not credible. the talk also addresses how we treat people people that are wrong, how strange it is that we take opportunities to treat people that are wrong badly.

mainly, i am just trying to draw attention to more productive ways to treat people that are wrong.

i am wrong, you have shown a superior knowledge than me, you have inspired me to become more knowledgeable. wouldn't your own knowledge be better served to advice people who ask for help rather than spending a good amount of effort assuring people they are not as knowledgeable as you?
punk isn't dead, it's always smelled that way.

"A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem."
-ae
AeolianWolf
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#28
Quote by gumbilicious
it's not about giving myself credibility. but it does concern me that you are more motivated to 'put me in my place' than to give advice to the OP.

you've plainly showed beyond a shadow of a doubt i am not credible. the talk also addresses how we treat people people that are wrong, how strange it is that we take opportunities to treat people that are wrong badly.

mainly, i am just trying to draw attention to more productive ways to treat people that are wrong.

i am wrong, you have shown a superior knowledge than me, you have inspired me to become more knowledgeable. wouldn't your own knowledge be better served to advice people who ask for help rather than spending a good amount of effort assuring people they are not as knowledgeable as you?


you don't need me to show that you're not credible -- you took care of that. i simply alerted TS to not pay attention to what you said, and gave him the correct information in your stead. i prevented TS from falling into the traps you fell into - i think that's pretty damn good help.

credibility is indeed an issue - why would somebody listen to advice from someone who isn't credible? i don't think you're thinking this through - you're just trying to use sophistry to create an argument. hell, even the fact that i'm still responding to this drivel is testament enough that i'm trying to help you out.

when people ask for help, i help them. nothing wrong with acknowledging the fact that you don't know something and asking about it. but it's another thing completely to make incorrect assertions. if you disagree, then i'm sorry you feel that way.

if you can't take anything out of this productively, and still feel the need to butt heads, then all i can tell you is to go teach a "psychology and feelings" class at your local community college, where you can go tell people how to think like kathryn schulz.

the choice is yours. all i'm doing is using logic - i'm not in control over whether you choose to be offended or not.
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91RG350
At least Microsoft cared
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#29
AW..... i notice your location... cant have been the greatest of weeks.... hope all is well mate
Quote by AlanHB
It's the same as all other harmony. Surround yourself with skulls and candles if it helps.
AeolianWolf
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#30
Quote by 91RG350
AW..... i notice your location... cant have been the greatest of weeks.... hope all is well mate


thank you, i'm fine i was one of the fortunate ones who never even lost power! we got an assload of wind, though. never in any danger of flood, or anything like that.

other parts of the city, however, were less fortunate - and apparently my accountant's house burned to the ground. nonetheless, thank you for your concern, but we're all good!
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
Sleepy__Head
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#31
Quote by AeolianWolf
this is how things work in life. there's no excuse for being wrong


That, if I may say so, is class-A nonsense.

Being wrong about something is just fine because everyone gets to make mistakes.

Not only is that a massively unrealistic expectation to maintain "there's no excuse for being wrong" it's also a repugnant attitude to have. I can tell you that if you said that to me in a lesson I'd be visiting someone else for lessons from then on and it's doubtful I'd even bother to tell you why I wasn't interested in you teaching me any more, I'd simply cancel my lessons and move on. But you wouldn't need me to tell you why that happened: You should already know because "there's no excuse for being wrong".

It's people's reactions to getting things wrong that matter, not their being wrong in the first place. And that often has a lot to do with how their mistakes are brought to their attention. If you go around with an overbearing attitude it shouldn't surprise you when people don't take kindly to it. That is how things work in life.
Quote by Hail
oh shut up with that /mu/ bullshit. fidget house shouldn't even be a genre, why in the world would it deserve its own subgenres you twat
jonathan.keeler
Registered User
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#32
Okay, question for all the theorists on here. I have done my grade 5 theory, but keys were always my weakest part.

what key is this bass lick in?
LeakyFlask
You know what would be really sweet? Having a beautiful bird inlaid around the first fret, taking a majestic dump with airborne droppings around the 5th, 7th, 9th frets and so on, with a graceful impact around the 22nd-24th.
Sleepy__Head
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#33
First things first - what clef is that?
Quote by Hail
oh shut up with that /mu/ bullshit. fidget house shouldn't even be a genre, why in the world would it deserve its own subgenres you twat
jonathan.keeler
Registered User
Join date: Dec 2008
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#34
Quote by Sleepy__Head
First things first - what clef is that?


sorry, i did not realise i had chopped that off. its in bass
LeakyFlask
You know what would be really sweet? Having a beautiful bird inlaid around the first fret, taking a majestic dump with airborne droppings around the 5th, 7th, 9th frets and so on, with a graceful impact around the 22nd-24th.
jonathan.keeler
Registered User
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#36
thanks for the help. It seems though that the last two bars are in a different key because of all the accidentals. is this right or am i just being a tard?
LeakyFlask
You know what would be really sweet? Having a beautiful bird inlaid around the first fret, taking a majestic dump with airborne droppings around the 5th, 7th, 9th frets and so on, with a graceful impact around the 22nd-24th.
J-Dawg158
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#37
The D# in bar 41 is just a blue note, and it's so fast that it's just a passing tone. the F# is just a natural 6 like you find in melodic minor so yea Am like mdc says.
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Sean0913
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#39
Allow me to weigh in on the AW/ gumb thing.

AW you know me...gumb, you don't. Here's how I see it:

gumb, credit for you for trying to help. Clearly you have "some" knowledge there, and I see you've been trying to put it together. However you have gaps, and AW was right, and you did oversimplify things, and by adding serialism, you further muddied the water concerning the relative knowledge of the TS.

AW we've been here in countless threads where people have been plain idiots where they are trying to "teach" wrong ideas to people, and when we confront them, they fight back and turn into even deeper fools and idiots, and they cannot be reasoned with. They take way more energy than they are worth, yet we brave and fight our way through to protect the integrity of the information. I get it, you have seen me do it too.

I'm thinking that after a while...we just become less tolerant, after the 50th time, everyone starts to resemble an energy draining idiot, that gives wrong information. I think that's what's happened here AW. The drive is the same, to protect the information, and not let the TS get misled, but we are ragged around the edges, less patient...it's understandable.

I don't think in this case however, gumb realized he was wrong. That's the important part to this - coming down on someone that doesnt know it....there are better ways to do it without attacking them. I get where it comes from, but there really are better ways. If he'd argued back and such, then you go from ignorant to an idiot.

Now I agree that initially I saw his response as passive aggressive and I think that his point that you responded to him and not to the TS, is not endemic to the discussion. Sometimes, we can help by providing answers, and other times we can help by challenging incorrect advice/information, so I think that how you responded to him, was on point and helpful to the topic.

That being said, I do believe that gumb is cut from a slightly different cloth than the typical idiot. In spite of the back and forth I detect a genuine humility, not sarcasm. I don't think you, gumb handled it the greatest either, but I believe in your sincerity of being deferent to AW and yet at the same time, a bit snippy in your own right.

I think both sides could handle it better. I think gumb certainly has something to offer here, and largely appears teachable, and I think AW, you've certainly proven your worth...I just think at times we can feel burned out and be a bit on the cranky side...I say that because I get that way. After the 1000th time of this...its easy to do so. I know you are passionate about the right information being shared, hell I'm the same way, and you've seen your share of that over the 4000+ messages I've posted here.

In the end, I think we all mean well.

Best,

Sean
AeolianWolf
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#40
Quote by Sleepy__Head
That, if I may say so, is class-A nonsense.

Being wrong about something is just fine because everyone gets to make mistakes.

Not only is that a massively unrealistic expectation to maintain "there's no excuse for being wrong" it's also a repugnant attitude to have. I can tell you that if you said that to me in a lesson I'd be visiting someone else for lessons from then on and it's doubtful I'd even bother to tell you why I wasn't interested in you teaching me any more, I'd simply cancel my lessons and move on. But you wouldn't need me to tell you why that happened: You should already know because "there's no excuse for being wrong".

It's people's reactions to getting things wrong that matter, not their being wrong in the first place. And that often has a lot to do with how their mistakes are brought to their attention. If you go around with an overbearing attitude it shouldn't surprise you when people don't take kindly to it. That is how things work in life.


i'm sorry you feel that way. again, it's all about attitude. if, instead of being open to a new attitude, you feel the need to dismiss it and rebut me, then that does explain a lot.

it's okay to make mistakes - you need to. the opposite is not possible. but there is simply no excuse for being wrong. frankly, it sounds like you're not thinking about it the right way. maybe the saying is right - perhaps you can't teach an old dog new tricks. regardless, i suggest you think about it a little more from a different angle. if you're bringing up teaching, you're definitely approaching this from the wrong angle.

three words: attitude. determines. results. if you take a no-nonsense, no-bullshit attitude, your results skyrocket. i'm also guessing you disagree with that. but you're entitled to your opinion. there are people who don't believe in the proven theory of evolution, either.

i think Sean's got it right.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.