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Vin71
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#1
I always thought metal was like the new classical, most of the songs are unique and trys new things etc and are very musical compared to alot of mainstream stuff, but I was surprised to find they only have jazz and classical programs mainly in colleges, and seem to frown upon rock and metal... Why is this? lol
Nietsche
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#2
Because the vast majority of metal songs use fairly musically simple minor key riffs, standard bVI - bVII - i type progressions and minor/pentatonic type solos. Metal isn't really a genre that adapts well to a typical music learning environment anyway, I've had a couple of contemporary music history classes that briefly touched on metal and the coverage was usually a couple of sentences about Priest and Sabbath and then a bunch of godawful shite probably written by someone whose familiarity with the genre most certainly didn't extend past reading the wikipedia page on the subject. Even if a music course which focused solely on metal existed you'd probably still be better off just listening to lots of it.
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Last edited by Nietsche at Nov 1, 2012,
rockingamer2
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#3
No, metal is pretty simple. If you think metal is the new classical, you don't really know much about classical music.
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Jmoarguitar
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#4
Well, some metal is "musically advanced", but most of it sticks around the same area. I'm not entirely sure but as far as guitar goes i'm pretty sure the holy grail of music degrees is Jazz, lots of crazy stuff goin' on there. You're kind of right when you say it's the new classical, they draw a lot of relations, just listen to some of Bach's fugues.

edit: Also you're better off figuring out rock and blues by yourself, that's the way it's meant to be.
Vin71
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#5
Man, are you guys sure?

Bands like: Equilibrium, Ensiferum, Galneryus, Balflare, Rhapsody of Fire, Vintersorg, Apocolyptical, Kamelot..

I jsut threw a few bands out there that I think play somewhat advanced stuff, can you guys link me to something that would be considered musically advanced so I can compare some of it? I mean I know all about mozart beethoven vivadli and stuff and have listened to alot their stuff, but alot of metal bands play solos and sound almost like them, I guess that's neo classical genre or something

You're kind of right when you say it's the new classical, they draw a lot of relations

Yeah, I kind of hear alot of fast paced melodic stuff in metal just like in classical, that's why I made the comparison lol I mean out of all the music genres currently, wouldn't you say metal is most close to classical?
Last edited by Vin71 at Nov 1, 2012,
MaggaraMarine
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#6
Metal is pretty wide genre. For example compare glam metal to death metal and there are hardly anything in common between the two sub genres other than both have drums, guitar and bass. And most of metal isn't really unique. The first metal bands were unique but so were the first pop, rock, jazz, blues, funk, hip hop... whatever bands. Metal isn't really harmonic (neither is rock). It's pretty much riff based music. You play a riff in E minor that contains many power chords that don't really have any harmonic function and then maybe play the same riff in A. I don't know if they are more musical than the basic pop songs. They may have a bit more complicated structures but again, it's a wide genre. There's prog metal that's more complicated structure and harmony wise but then there's glam metal that is pretty near pop music with simple riffs and structures.

But I wouldn't compare metal to classical. They are different genres and also classical isn't "dead". People still make classical music. Also, listening to metal isn't considered "sophisticated" like listening to classical and jazz is. Of course classical music has inspired some metal artists but I'm pretty sure classical has also inspired many pop artists.

About that college thing: Jazz and classical have so much more to learn about them. Also they are for all instruments, not just for electric guitar, bass and drums. They aren't riff based like most metal is. Because rock and metal are pretty much based on riffs: You repeat the same riff and then change the riff and repeat it. It sounds good but the "rock/metal theory" is pretty simple.

EDIT: Yes, there are sub genres like neo classical metal and power metal that are more near to classical. But again, classical music is very progressive. They have lots of different melodies in one song and the melodies are more complicated. Most of metal is riff based just like rock.
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Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Nov 1, 2012,
British_Steal
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#7
Quote by Vin71
I always thought metal was like the new classical, most of the songs are unique and trys new things etc and are very musical compared to alot of mainstream stuff, but I was surprised to find they only have jazz and classical programs mainly in colleges, and seem to frown upon rock and metal... Why is this? lol


First, you dont know a lot about classical in that case. Classical and Jazz are more complex and have much more depth to them than Metal does. Until you try to play either one of those styles, your likely to not understand what Im talking about.

A lot of metal heads have this persona that metal is the highest art form or whatever and it may be more complex than your average pop song but it doesnt even scratch the surface of what classical and jazz have to offer.
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Nietsche
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#8
To be totally fair, there's probably something to be said for comparing bands like Rhapsody of Fire and composers like Chopin in terms of the inverse ratio of instrumental virtuosity to musical content.
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Last edited by Nietsche at Nov 1, 2012,
MaggaraMarine
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#9
Also being complex doesn't mean it's better. I like very simple stuff but I also like complex stuff. But it doesn't need to be complex. Simple stuff like AC/DC is great because it stays simple. They don't try to do anything but straight forward rock. They have great and catchy riffs.
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#11
Quote by Vin71
Man, are you guys sure?


yes, we're sure.

how much classical have you really listened to? you say you know "all about mozart, beethoven, and vivaldi", and you've got me wondering about that word "all".

as far as classical goes, mozart, beethoven, and vivaldi aren't really all that "advanced". they were just starting to establish a style - maybe i'd consider the latter half of beethoven's works to just start pushing the envelope. you want advanced? listen to some ravel. brahms. tchaikovsky. second half of the 1800s should serve you well.

Quote by Vin71
Yeah, I kind of hear alot of fast paced melodic stuff in metal just like in classical, that's why I made the comparison lol I mean out of all the music genres currently, wouldn't you say metal is most close to classical?


no. metal isn't close to classical at all. i really don't get why people are so intent on making metal seem like classical. maybe to try and pull a little credibility out of thin air?

so you're saying that the only genres that have "fast paced melodic stuff" are classical and metal? if that's the case, you don't listen to anywhere near enough music for a musician, and you should start broadening your music tastes. if i think "fast paced melodic ideas", the first genre that comes to mind is jazz, really. but the big part of what makes classical music classical music is the musical form -- the structure which metal rarely to never adheres to.

as maggara mentioned, metal and rock rely on riffs - they're riff-based genres. this idea is so simple that it actually has a name in classical music: the ostinato. and they've been around since before vivaldi's time, so it's actually one of the first and simplest ideas that came about. jmoar's got it right - listen to a couple of fugues. in all of my experience, to this day i still maintain that fugues are the most complex form of music yet in existence.

it's exactly as people say. metal is not an advanced genre. there are many more factors into determining what is and is not advanced than speed. a small percentage of metal is close to classical, but that's almost always because the musician(s) who wrote it had years of formal study and/or training in classical music, and were able to utilize their knowledge and apply it to more modern outlets (i.e. a metal band).

my personal advice to you is not to worry about complexity in music - ultimately it's just a game to see whose dick is bigger. focus on the more important things, such as enhancing your skill, training your ear, studying your theory, listening to a lot of music and analyzing it; becoming familiar with the necessary elements that will help sculpt you into a skilled musician.
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Last edited by AeolianWolf at Nov 1, 2012,
rockingamer2
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#12
Also, looking at classical music as "fast paced melodic stuff" doesn't do classical music any justice. Classical music is really all about development of a theme or idea, hence why you don't have the verse - chorus - verse - chorus idea in classical music. Metal is pop music and follows popular music conventions much more than classical ones.
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Xiaoxi
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#13
In some ways, metal is advanced in its aesthetics. But it isn't even close to classical music in terms of intellectual development. That is because classical music is, by far, the only genre of music that emphasizes on employing and developing complex musical logic in its works. This is something that most cultures of music, including metal, has never even considered or made aware of.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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chronowarp
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#14
guys, guys.

harmonic minor and repetitive sequence = advanced
truncated 16th note rhythms = advanced
arpeggios = advanced, and classical.

get it right or pay the price.
satrionic1
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#15
Depends on the piece.

any music can be advanced [except hiphop, ofcourse].
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#16
In technical terms, yes, metal can be pretty difficult to actually play well. In terms of composition and theory however, it's relatively simple. I still love it regardless. \m/
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amonamarthmetal
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#17
Quote by satrionic1
Depends on the piece.

any music can be advanced [except hiphop, ofcourse].

Is Busta Rhymes considered hiphop?
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#18
No, metal is not an advanced music form per se, it's just that on a lot other more popular genres people don't bother taking them to the next level.
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#19
Quote by satrionic1
[except hiphop, ofcourse].


hip hop > metal
MaggaraMarine
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#20
Where did that hip hop thing come from?
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#21
Quote by satrionic1
Depends on the piece.

any music can be advanced [except hiphop, ofcourse].


you've been listening to some really shitty hip-hop. let me put the shoe on the other foot and show you exactly what you're saying -- maybe it'll click.

"all metal that is and ever was is complete and utter shit. how do i know? i listened to st. anger."
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Last edited by AeolianWolf at Nov 1, 2012,
Vin71
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#22
Seems I choose some wrong words to phrase things, I know all about the classical composers I mentioned in terms of who they are and what they did, and have listened to some of their popular songs, but not much, I actually have alot of metal covers of those classical songs as well lol

Also, I mainly listen to Progressive,folk,instrumental,power,and neo-classical metal, so I guess that's why I've made the comparison. I really haven't listened to a lot of classical, and I only got into metal 5 years ago but compared to all the previous music genres I listened to, and I listened to alot but mainly the "hit albums" and popular stuff over the years, I actually have like a 50gb folder of music that I've collected and listened to over the years with a wide range of genres but I was never analyzing them as I listened to them, but since I found out about metal I haven't really listened to them, the metal genre just seemed to incorporate elements from every other genre and do things better to me, though after a while I grown back to the other classic rock songs and stuff I listened to before and I like both equally now

I felt the need to defend how much music I've listened to cause of Wolfs post, but his post was really helpful as well.

I didn't know there's still classical music genre out there, it seemed like it was something from the 1800s etc, I guess I really need to brush up on classical and check out some later artists, I had thought beethovens and mozarts etc all the old composers were the best classical music, as they're the ones most famous and mentioned the most, I didn't know the genre went into more advanced stuff beyond them.

Also, I wasn't worrying about the complexity of the music, I love slow simple stuff as well it's just I always thought metal was something compared to classical lol
robo37
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#23
Metal really isn't that complex considering that it's usually just the combination of power chords and going back and forth through scales, though it really repends on the band (Tool is about as complex as you can get). As a whole though I personally think alt rock and electronic music is more complex.
rockingamer2
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#24
There's listening to classical music and there's going into what makes it work. If you think metal and classical music are similar, then you haven't gone into what classical music actual "does." But seeing as you didn't know about classical music past the big popular composers, it's easy to see that you have a lot to learn about classical music.
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z4twenny
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#25
Quote by AeolianWolf


"all metal that is and ever was is complete and utter shit. how do i know? i listened to st. anger."

I know you're making a blanket statement to prove a point but "the unnamed feeling" kicked ass
AeolianWolf
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#26
Quote by Vin71
the metal genre just seemed to incorporate elements from every other genre and do things better to me


if you haven't really listened to every genre and have the experience playing it, how can you be so sure?

Quote by Vin71
I felt the need to defend how much music I've listened to cause of Wolfs post, but his post was really helpful as well.


i'm glad it was able to help you.

Quote by Vin71
I didn't know there's still classical music genre out there, it seemed like it was something from the 1800s etc, I guess I really need to brush up on classical and check out some later artists, I had thought beethovens and mozarts etc all the old composers were the best classical music, as they're the ones most famous and mentioned the most, I didn't know the genre went into more advanced stuff beyond them.


it's all stuff you should be looking into. mozart and beethoven started to establish the styles, but later composers really started getting into some interesting stuff - pushing the envelope, exploring boundaries, testing limits. it gets pretty interesting.

the bottom line is that you don't know enough yet -- keyword being "yet". now you're one step ahead of everybody else, because you know something crucial: you know that there's something you don't know. and that's precisely what enables you to improve. keep the attitude you have, couple it with discipline and good old elbow grease, and i'm confident you'll get pretty far.

if you're going to use this as a reason to look into classical music, start with some of the simpler composers like vivaldi, haydn, and mozart (to an extent). listening to them will give you a feel for the rudiments of the style. then start pushing it to beethoven. beethoven is the transition between the simplicity and elegance of the classical style to the variety and experimentation of the romantic era. then, at some point, when you've got a good fitting, go for baroque []. bach's work is so mind-numbingly complex that it's actually a bad place to start, despite having been one of the earlier composers. and at some point, you might want to go into renaissance music - the polyphony of palestrina is a complete and utter wonder. i think that's a pretty good outline. but first, start with classical era. vivaldi is technically baroque, but his work doesn't have a lot of the complex conventions that bach does, and since you're already somewhat familiar with him, i think it'll be good to start with some of his music. in fact, i'll give you one simple piece by all three of the composers i've suggested to start you of. the reason i'm giving you simple pieces is because you want to be able to analyze them -- make sense of them. and if you don't know theory, this is probably a good place to start learning it -- it'll help you absorb all of what you're hearing much easier.

mozart, symphony no. 29 in A major, movement 3 - menuetto
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDq1h2u68FE

vivaldi, concerto for strings and continuo in A major, movement 3 - allegro
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThaN8weY5PM

haydn, string quartet no. 62 in C major "emperor", movement 1 - allegro
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbWufAEgdg4

...and since we're talking about hip-hop,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qn5MRov_OI
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axemanchris
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#27
Just to add something that hasn't been mentioned yet....

So far, the discussion has focused primarily on comparisons between the two genres with respect to composition.

With regards to performance, classical and jazz differ from metal (and really, any other genre for the most part) in that metal is played with a pick, meaning either one note at a time, or otherwise fairly simple diads, triads and chord structures. Classical and Jazz often involve playing both the melody and accompaniment at the same time, which requires an entirely different bag of tricks for the right hand.

Sure, a metal player might be just as fast with the left hand, or faster, than a classical or jazz player, but take his pick away and he's probably dead meat.

Consider, for instance: Joe Pass - Summertime

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkinLvUrUYE&feature=related

and John Williams - Sevilla

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfRLMopjDKA&feature=related

Both are great examples of playing both melody and accompaniment and/or countermelody at the same time, requiring a highly developed right hand technique also.

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Life Is Brutal
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#28
No, metal is pretty simple. If you think metal is the new classical, you don't really know much about classical music.


If you think metal is pretty simple, you don't really know much about metal.

Classical is the new classical. It's not like it's not around anymore...


Technically, Classical is dead because it relates the music to a particular era of time, any newly composed "Classical" music is generally referred to as "Art Music" in the Classical style.

I could be wrong, but that's my present understanding of it, and its mostly semantics anyways.
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#29
Quote by AeolianWolf

vivaldi, concerto for strings and continuo in A major, movement 3 - allegro
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThaN8weY5PM

... I love you. That is one of my favorite concertos that Vivaldi wrote. Ever.
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#30
Sure, a metal player might be just as fast with the left hand, or faster, than a classical or jazz player, but take his pick away and he's probably dead meat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkpZ645ztl0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSchoITeht0&feature=related
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#31
I think to legitimately discuss something like this question, it's important to establish the parameters. Otherwise you have 10 people speaking different languages trying to argue points that no one else understands.

Musically advanced means what exactly?

Different things to different people.

So, define what musically advanced is to you, so that you have a set of objective benchmarks. Since also, metal has a ton of subgenres, it's almost too broad in its own classification, and even then, you get people attacking you and saying "That ain't metal" To some, GnR was Metal, but not to me. So, point is, define the genre as well.

You see by the time you even make it that far, you've formed the basis of an objective research paper...and all is well and good, but...by then, no one cares anymore.

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at Nov 1, 2012,
CryogenicHusk
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#32
Quote by Life Is Brutal


Not necessarily supporting what the other guy said, but it is widely known that Chris Broderick received serious classical training on many instruments (not just guitar). He's probably not the best example to refute his claim...
Last edited by CryogenicHusk at Nov 1, 2012,
seljer
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#33
Quote by CryogenicHusk
Not necessarily supporting what the other guy said, but it is widely known that Chris Broderick received serious classical training on many instruments (not just guitar). He's probably not the best example to refute his claim...


also, it needs less wanking and more counterpoint
Life Is Brutal
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#34
Quote by CryogenicHusk
Not necessarily supporting what the other guy said, but it is widely known that Chris Broderick received serious classical training on many instruments (not just guitar). He's probably not the best example to refute his claim...


Any decent metal player is going to be fairly well versed in something other than metal, be it blues, jazz, classical, etc.

If you only know how to play metal, and can only write metal, that's basically genre incest and you get no originality/versatility out of it.

also, it needs less wanking and more counterpoint


The first is just arpeggios, so tell that to Paganini, Liszt, and pretty much anyone who has ever ran up an arpeggio.

The second is a classical performance which involves more counterpoint, but its still pretty lax in it.
Last edited by Life Is Brutal at Nov 1, 2012,
axemanchris
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#35
Quote by Life Is Brutal


I'm not going to enter into an argument that essentially boils down to a p!ssing match between classical and metal players. I grew up on metal. I love it. I know there are great players.

You've found an exception to the rule, though, albeit not a very good one. He comes right out and tells us that basically he is rifling through a sequential pattern of arpeggios using two-hand tapping stuff. There's a big difference between that and what most classical and jazz players do.

Not to mention the fact that I'd like to see him pull that off on a classical guitar.

Also interesting to note that, long before Eddie V started inspiring generations of metal-heads to learn tapping, Stanley Jordan was doing it routinely as part of his jazz playing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQZY87PDsnQ

CT
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amonamarthmetal
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#37
Quote by axemanchris


Not to mention the fact that I'd like to see him pull that off on a classical guitar.


CT

he didnt do the tapped arpeggio's but he can play classical guitar...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-ze51lEt3w
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#38
Not to mention the fact that I'd like to see him pull that off on a classical guitar.


LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49fq-FFccjY&feature=related

And yeah, Stanley Jordan has some awesome stuff.

And I wasn't trying to start a pissing match, I just wanted to try to make a brief point. I believe that many metal musicians have the same musicality of classical and jazz musicians, albeit I will say that it is difficult for a metal musician to be perceived in the same caliber as the others.

Each genre has its own unique complexities, and if we can agree on that than I have no other point except to show a couple of boundary crossings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KLfvO7O_Es&feature=relmfu

All these dudes have studied shit loads of Jazz theory and have been to University to study music. So what do they do? They make really really amazing Jazz Metal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AakQEukLMqM
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#39
there's more to playing than technical skill. i've never listened to anything broderick wrote and thought it was something i couldn't put together on guitarpro and play slowly with a metronome for a few weeks until i got it.

i just came in to refute the hip-hop being simple bit though
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3_fNuNyjUc
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#40
Quote by Life Is Brutal


same video you presented earlier with a different url...you laughed in chris' face and proved absolutely nothing.

Quote by Life Is Brutal
And I wasn't trying to start a pissing match, I just wanted to try to make a brief point. I believe that many metal musicians have the same musicality of classical and jazz musicians, albeit I will say that it is difficult for a metal musician to be perceived in the same caliber as the others.


frankly, there are reasons for that. i don't believe that - i notice (not believe, notice) that comparatively few metal musicians have musicality like classical and jazz musicians, and here's the thing - the ones that do are also classical and/or jazz musicians...

...so where do we go from here?

i will make the bold statement that i have NEVER seen a metal musician who doesn't play classical and/or jazz with musicality like a trained classical/jazz musician.

sorry, but from an objective standpoint, i'm inclined to side with chris.
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