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#41
same video you presented earlier with a different url...you laughed in chris' face and proved absolutely nothing.


What? The one I linked was him playing arpeggios/scales on a classical guitar, a Luis Legnani piece to be exactly. Someone said something like "I'd like to see him play this on a Classical Guitar" so I linked it again. Point is, I double posted it.

OH, I GET IT.

You guys are essentially making the point that the theory/technique used in Metal is a derivative from that used in Classical/Jazz, which I would agree on for a large majority of it.

i will make the bold statement that i have NEVER seen a metal musician who doesn't play classical and/or jazz with musicality like a trained classical/jazz musician.


I will agree with that, I can't think of a single theory/technique oriented musician who has played exclusively metal with no classical/jazz background. Ron Jarzombek is probably the closest you would find to something in that sense, but even so I'm pretty sure hes studied some classical material.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&v=8moxDI-80S4&NR=1

As for why this is?

I personally believe that's because Metal doesn't have the foundation that Classical/Jazz have. The genre as a whole has only been around for approximately 40-50 years, and that's the very beginning of it.

Also, metal doesn't have the traditional I-IV-V, it doesn't use standard keys/scales, and would basically be a clusterfuck to try and teach someone the basics through it. Compare that to classical music, where everything is much cleaner cut and easy to analyze.

Once you have this knowledge of music theory, from studying what was probably classical/jazz, you move back into metal and apply it, but by that point you're "Tainted" by the other genres.

Tl;Dr - Classical and Jazz are arranged in such a way that it is easier to learn theory from these styles using our current system of music theory/education. Basically, the capital is already established for those styles where as metal isn't objective enough to be used as a substitute.

And I would like to argue that metal upon the higher spectrum of the complexity scale, (Advanced harmonies, phrasing, technique) is either on par, or very close to the complexity in classical/jazz. Take for example Ron Jarzombek above, who utilizes Tone rows, and Exivious who use advanced theory in the compositions.
Last edited by Life Is Brutal at Nov 1, 2012,
#43
by the way who really cares if music is advanced (no matter what parameters you might use to define that) anyway as long as it's satisfying and gives the impression the composer wants to put out
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#44
Quote by chronowarp
terrible


Hes out of tune in places and he could be more articulate, but its still good.

by the way who really cares if music is advanced (no matter what parameters you might use to define that) anyway as long as it's satisfying and gives the impression the composer wants to put out


And yeah, this. I stopped giving a shit about technicality a long time ago.

I still like Behold... The Arctopus and Brain Drill though, for the reasons you posted.
#45
I would just like to throw out Tosin Abasi. Crazy good guitarist in both the metal and jazz (maybe even classical...?) forms of guitar playing.
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#46
Quote by AWACS
I would just like to throw out Tosin Abasi. Crazy good guitarist in both the metal and jazz (maybe even classical...?) forms of guitar playing.

I see no jazz from him...

Most claims of "jazz" from people like metal are not really jazz at all.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#47
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I see no jazz from him...

Most claims of "jazz" from people like metal are not really jazz at all.

Metalheads think chromatic = jazz
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#48
Quote by Life Is Brutal


And yeah, this. I stopped giving a shit about technicality a long time ago.


again, technicality in performance has nothing to do with the technicality involved with your approach to themes in the actual composition. it all goes on what you think "advanced" means, but xiaoxi was accurate in saying that classical is an approach to the logic behind music and inherently will be the forerunner in composition whether that means making the most out of 2 notes or straight 32nd note runs.

it's still a dumb thing to try to measure provided you've got a reasonable head on your shoulders and a clue of what you're doing. beyond functional composition, you dabble into the realm of masturbation (wherein classical and metal do approach common grounds)

Quote by Xiaoxi
I see no jazz from him...

Most claims of "jazz" from people like metal are not really jazz at all.


uhhhh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si5LChHa5R0
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#51
Quote by griffRG7321
^ Not exactly metal...


it's abasi though. all the guy said was that tosin plays metal and jazz proficiently.
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#52
Quote by Hail


uhhhh

That's not really jazz though. I looked up some other TRAM videos and there's not really any that demonstrates that he actually has a jazz voice.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#53
again, technicality in performance has nothing to do with the technicality involved with your approach to themes in the actual composition. it all goes on what you think "advanced" means, but xiaoxi was accurate in saying that classical is an approach to the logic behind music and inherently will be the forerunner in composition whether that means making the most out of 2 notes or straight 32nd note runs.


I meant technicality in any sense.

it's still a dumb thing to try to measure provided you've got a reasonable head on your shoulders and a clue of what you're doing.


How "Advanced" something is really can't be measured objectively, only subjectively.

beyond functional composition, you dabble into the realm of masturbation (wherein classical and metal do approach common grounds)


Uhh, I disagree here. If someone wants to express some idea that falls outside of Functional Composition, (And I'm not sure what you mean by this), then that shouldn't be considered overkill.

I thought of Schoenberg when you said that, and I think hes expressing something that you can't have any other way of doing it.
#54
Quote by Life Is Brutal

Also, metal doesn't have the traditional I-IV-V, it doesn't use standard keys/scales, and would basically be a clusterfuck to try and teach someone the basics through it. Compare that to classical music, where everything is much cleaner cut and easy to analyze.

Um, metal uses standard scales. It also uses a lot of accidentals. Again, if you think a lot of classical music is cleaner cut and easy to analyze, especially compared to metal, I don't think you are getting classical music.
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#55
Guys;

Major scale = basic

Harmonic minor really fast with distortion = complex

So TS is right.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#56
Quote by Xiaoxi
That's not really jazz though. I looked up some other TRAM videos and there's not really any that demonstrates that he actually has a jazz voice.


well then we need to get into what parameters you'd use to describe a jazz "voice". in terms of the broad composition i'd say it's got heavy roots in jazz (though admittedly that's mostly through terrazas).

and even if he doesn't fall into jazz, it's hard to describe him as a generic metal guitarist that just runs up and down scales and arpeggios (outside of his first album...) and i'd definitely label a lot of his stuff in the realm of complexity.

not that complexity matters but it seems unfair to say "he doesn't really play jazz so it doesn't count he's not as good as joe pass because he doesn't play real jazz"

i liked all of you so much more before this thread why do we have to do this
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Last edited by Hail at Nov 1, 2012,
#58
For Abasi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oytob59bgH4

Now, I don't know music the way the majority of you do (especially Xiaoxi), but this sounds pretty jazzy to me, maybe more jazz-fusion. Theres a melody being played, and something of a counter-melody being played in the bass register.

Or this one?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSes83v0TvQ

Xiaoxi, I would really like to hear your opinion on both of these pieces, please, if you don't mind.
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#59
there's a reason i posted TRAM and not modern meat. "jazzy" in the sense of the word, like "smooth" or "heavy", but nothing actually like jazz.

very good nonetheless, those two are both favorites.
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#60
Hail, do you have any more examples of hip-hop like Busdriver? I've been looking for this kind of music for years.
#61
Um, metal uses standard scales. It also uses a lot of accidentals. Again, if you think a lot of classical music is cleaner cut and easy to analyze, especially compared to metal, I don't think you are getting classical music.


I don't think you have a very good scope on metal, at all.

Many metal guitarists have written songs without any knowledge of tonal theory, resulting in whacky scales and worthless chromatics. Metallica and Death are two bands right from the top of my head who don't/didn't use conventional theory, so you have to go to a more convoluted method of theory in order to explain what is occurring in the piece.

Like, it gets stupidly hard to try to label the function of powerchords to relate to the accidentals hes soloing with because you end up switching keys every 5th note.

I've listened to hundreds of hours of classical music and have analyzed many individual classical pieces. These classical pieces almost always follow a clear cut analysis, and if they deviate its still relatively easy to explain, because the composers wrote the piece with the theory behind it in mind.
Last edited by Life Is Brutal at Nov 2, 2012,
#62
Hey ask yourself 'why'.

Probably because CPP music theory was developed and organized around classical period music, lol.

Why wouldn't the style of music that a system of music theory was created to explain NOT be clearcut?
#63
Quote by Hail
well then we need to get into what parameters you'd use to describe a jazz "voice". in terms of the broad composition i'd say it's got heavy roots in jazz (though admittedly that's mostly through terrazas).
As in, one derived and modernized from the language and tradition of bebop. I agree that the sax really shines through. That is actually jazz. But Abassi's "voice" is nowhere to be found. He plays a few shy licks that don't really indicate any actual command of the jazz language.

and even if he doesn't fall into jazz, it's hard to describe him as a generic metal guitarist that just runs up and down scales and arpeggios
I don't think of him that way. But more importantly, I don't expect him to be a great metal AND jazz player. The only two guitarists I know who can pull that off are Chris Poland and Guthrie Govan.

My contentions is with the fans who don't really know jazz, putting their favorite musicians up on the jazz pedestal.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#64
Quote by AWACS
For Abasi:
Now, I don't know music the way the majority of you do (especially Xiaoxi), but this sounds pretty jazzy to me, maybe more jazz-fusion. Theres a melody being played, and something of a counter-melody being played in the bass register.

Xiaoxi, I would really like to hear your opinion on both of these pieces, please, if you don't mind.

Obviously he brings a lot of jazz influence into his music, which is fine. But for the reasons I just posted, there's nothing to indicate that he would do well in a standard quartet with the standard head, solos, recap structure of authentic jazz. I can tell that there is a lot of very detailed planning in these pieces, so that also removes the spontaneity usually found in jazz (of course there are exceptions when it comes to larger ensembles). But that spontaneity is a central must-have skill in jazz: the extreme sensitivity that each person has each other as they listen and respond.

This guy is a very good guitarist, and that's all he needs to be. We don't need to make any illusions that he's a master of all styles. He is very good at being him, and that's all that matters.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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Last edited by Xiaoxi at Nov 2, 2012,
#65
Cmon guys... lets not measure each others genre advanced-ness...

Because everyone knows my genre advanced-ness is bigger than yours...
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#66
Quote by Xiaoxi
As in, one derived and modernized from the language and tradition of bebop. I agree that the sax really shines through. That is actually jazz. But Abassi's "voice" is nowhere to be found. He plays a few shy licks that don't really indicate any actual command of the jazz language.

I don't think of him that way. But more importantly, I don't expect him to be a great metal AND jazz player. The only two guitarists I know who can pull that off are Chris Poland and Guthrie Govan.

My contentions is with the fans who don't really know jazz, putting their favorite musicians up on the jazz pedestal.

Extreme props for mentioning Chris Poland. He's one of my favorite guitarists.

What about Alex Skolnick Trio, featuring Alex Skolnick of Testament?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY7pZcRsqpk
Last edited by TheHydra at Nov 2, 2012,
#67
Quote by Xiaoxi
Obviously he brings a lot of jazz influence into his music, which is fine. But for the reasons I just posted, there's nothing to indicate that he would do well in a standard quartet with the standard head, solos, recap structure of authentic jazz. I can tell that there is a lot of very detailed planning in these pieces, so that also removes the spontaneity usually found in jazz (of course there are exceptions when it comes to larger ensembles). But that spontaneity is a central must-have skill in jazz: the extreme sensitivity that each person has each other as they listen and respond.

This guy is a very good guitarist, and that's all he needs to be. We don't need to make any illusions that he's a master of all styles. He is very good at being him, and that's all that matters.


Thank you for that, by the way...

I didn't mean to come across saying that he's a jazz musician who plays with distortion on, I just thought that he's one of the few musicians I know who can do the metal "chug-chug" as well as play an interesting, melodic, and musical solo (whether part of a song, or a song by itself.) He did go to the Atlanta Institute of Music for a year before he released the first AAL album, and I find it comes across in his pieces.
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#68
Quote by Life Is Brutal
I don't think you have a very good scope on metal, at all.

Many metal guitarists have written songs without any knowledge of tonal theory, resulting in whacky scales and worthless chromatics. Metallica and Death are two bands right from the top of my head who don't/didn't use conventional theory, so you have to go to a more convoluted method of theory in order to explain what is occurring in the piece.

Like, it gets stupidly hard to try to label the function of powerchords to relate to the accidentals hes soloing with because you end up switching keys every 5th note.

I've listened to hundreds of hours of classical music and have analyzed many individual classical pieces. These classical pieces almost always follow a clear cut analysis, and if they deviate its still relatively easy to explain, because the composers wrote the piece with the theory behind it in mind.

What do you mean by "using theory"? I mean, the "theory behind" any Metallica song is that they play a riff in E, then they play the same riff in F#, G or A whatever or maybe a new riff. And most of the power chords are non functioning. It's just a riff in E minor or A minor or F# minor or G major. But really, I don't like the term "using theory" because you write what you hear in your head, the theory doesn't write it, theory just explains it. I mean, yes they know the theory and some musical "conclusions" may be because of it. They had some kind of standards that every song followed like we have the basic song structures now in pop music (metal is pop music) (songs have at least some kind of verses and choruses). But you don't write "with theory", you write what you hear in your head and of course knowing theory might help you hear some things.

Again I'm emphasizing that metal is riff based music, classical isn't. Classical has different themes that kind of progress and you don't really repeat them that many times. You don't have verse - chorus - bridge kind of structures in classical.

The virtuosity of many metal guitarists comes from classical. They have listened to some classical like Paganini and learned the songs on guitar.
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#69
All subjectivity aside, the fact remains that the playing approach towards "typical" classical and jazz players and compositions requires the right hand being very technical also, in order to play both the melody and countermelody and/or accompaniment at the same time. By comparison, the "typical" metal player does lots of really fast scale runs and some arpeggio sweeps, all with a pick, and the odd bit of finger-tapping.

Of course, with anything, exceptions will apply, but exceptions are just that.

The left hand technique in all is very demanding, but the right-hand technique is much more demanding in classical and jazz. Which, to the original question, is one of the reasons why any "academic" music program will cater to classical and/or jazz, but not metal, from a performance point of view.

CT
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#70
Quote by Xiaoxi
In some ways, metal is advanced in its aesthetics. But it isn't even close to classical music in terms of intellectual development. That is because classical music is, by far, the only genre of music that emphasizes on employing and developing complex musical logic in its works. This is something that most cultures of music, including metal, has never even considered or made aware of.


Or it's something that, if implemented in metal would mean that it ceased to be metal. Metal is mainly about the driving force of riff; that's where it derives its structure and that's what defines its boundaries. To reach the complexity of classical the riff would have to be abandoned, or at least its metrical regularity subjected to so much variation and, for example, functional harmony it wouldn't really be a metal riff as we know it.

In any case it might be argued that complexity has diminishing returns.
#71
Quote by Jehannum
In any case it might be argued that complexity has diminishing returns.


Without wanting to put words into his mouth I'm fairly sure Mikael Åkerfeldt might have something to say about that.
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#72
Quote by axemanchris
All subjectivity aside, the fact remains that the playing approach towards "typical" classical and jazz players and compositions requires the right hand being very technical also, in order to play both the melody and countermelody and/or accompaniment at the same time. By comparison, the "typical" metal player does lots of really fast scale runs and some arpeggio sweeps, all with a pick, and the odd bit of finger-tapping.

Of course, with anything, exceptions will apply, but exceptions are just that.

The left hand technique in all is very demanding, but the right-hand technique is much more demanding in classical and jazz. Which, to the original question, is one of the reasons why any "academic" music program will cater to classical and/or jazz, but not metal, from a performance point of view.

CT

But this applies only if you play guitar.
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#73
Quote by Jehannum
Or it's something that, if implemented in metal would mean that it ceased to be metal.


It could possibly be named as a subgenre. But it still wouldn't be good to build a case for metal being formally taught in schools because the reason this subgenre is "advanced" is because it borrows from classical, which you can more easily learn from classical training (would you rather learn about tone rows by studying the relatively limited repertoire of Ron Jarzombek, or learn it in a classical structure, where more than just one or two different composers have used it in many of their works?).
Last edited by CryogenicHusk at Nov 2, 2012,
#74
Quote by 91RG350
Cmon guys... lets not measure each others genre advanced-ness...

Because everyone knows my genre advanced-ness is bigger than yours...


My genre advanced-ness is 9 1/2 inches long.
#75
Why wouldn't the style of music that a system of music theory was created to explain NOT be clearcut?


Which is exactly why its more difficult to analyze a metal song using it.

And saying that a riff is in in G Minor, etc, is basically like telling me the key of the piece and doesn't express explicitly whats occurring.

But really, I don't like the term "using theory" because you write what you hear in your head, the theory doesn't write it, theory just explains it.


Your theoretical knowledge changes what you hear inside.
#76
Quote by Life Is Brutal
Which is exactly why its more difficult to analyze a metal song using it.


Same could be said about lots of regular pop tunes

edit: lots of schools do include contemporary styles in their curricula, btw... they usually don't single metal out by placing it in its own class, though. They most likely teach it in the same class they'll teach about general rock, funk, salsa, etc.
Last edited by CryogenicHusk at Nov 2, 2012,
#77
Quote by Life Is Brutal
I don't think you have a very good scope on metal, at all.

Many metal guitarists have written songs without any knowledge of tonal theory, resulting in whacky scales and worthless chromatics. Metallica and Death are two bands right from the top of my head who don't/didn't use conventional theory, so you have to go to a more convoluted method of theory in order to explain what is occurring in the piece.

Like, it gets stupidly hard to try to label the function of powerchords to relate to the accidentals hes soloing with because you end up switching keys every 5th note.

I've listened to hundreds of hours of classical music and have analyzed many individual classical pieces. These classical pieces almost always follow a clear cut analysis, and if they deviate its still relatively easy to explain, because the composers wrote the piece with the theory behind it in mind.

Switching keys? Most metal songs don't tend to switch keys, and if they do, it tends to be a direct modulation. It doesn't matter that they don't use theory, theory can still be used to describe what they are doing. Most popular music (including most metal) can usually described with "Major (or minor) scale with accidentals."
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#78
Quote by Life Is Brutal
Which is exactly why its more difficult to analyze a metal song using it.

And saying that a riff is in in G Minor, etc, is basically like telling me the key of the piece and doesn't express explicitly whats occurring.


Your theoretical knowledge changes what you hear inside.

But that doesn't mean metal is complex or not clear cut - it just isn't easily explained by a system that wasn't meant to explain it.
#79
This isn't a matter of one style being 'better' than another because that is subjective, this is a matter of complexity, difficulty and depth. I would say that metal (specifically the difficult sub-genres) is not easy and definitely has its complexities and challenges and it is respectable and difficult genre to play. I would say it is several leagues above most pop and rock music in that respect.

That being said, it is not close or on par with classical and jazz (in terms of difficulty/depth/complexity) and that is why it is not a focus of university curriculums. There just isn't enough depth in metal to study it for 4+ years in an academic setting.
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Last edited by British_Steal at Nov 2, 2012,
#80
Quote by macashmack
My genre advanced-ness is 9 1/2 inches long.


Ah, but it's not the size of the cannon that matters: It's the force of the shot.

Besides: My genre's girth far exceeds your genres girth.
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oh shut up with that /mu/ bullshit. fidget house shouldn't even be a genre, why in the world would it deserve its own subgenres you twat