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#81
Quote by arabmetallion
compared to the forced extermination [by the mother] of a fetus that does not yet have a say in weather or not it's allowed to live or not then my answer would have to be no


You've avoided the question I asked again and made up your own one where I asked you to compare.

Also, if you can't fathom why a fetus doesn't have any say as to what happens to it I think this discussion might be a bit over your head.
#82
Quote by arabmetallion
look at it this, why are some people forced to work very hard they're entire lives just because they're parents were poor or the country they were born in while others live easy and lavish lives? is it they're fault? life is unfair, it's an unfortunate reality. financial support and adoption are also options.
This is a very narrow-minded and ill-informed view of pregnancy. Pregnancy changes the make up a woman's body chemically. Having a baby can permanently alter the chemistry of a body. It takes a toll me physically and mentally.

I understand your view on the fetus, but the victim of a violent crime should not be forced to carry more baggage.

Let me throw this scenario out there for you: your best friend is murdered. They catch the guy who did it. Now you have to high five the murderer every day for the rest of you life.

I know that sounds silly, but the point is that when you're a victim you shouldn't be punished more. You should be allowed to heal.
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#83
Quote by arabmetallion
sperm and eggs are released naturally and have the same genetic code as the individual releasing them, a foetus however is unique because it's a result of the fertilization of 2 sex cells and therefore has it's own genetic code. that's the key difference

What if it's a clone baby?
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#84
Quote by arabmetallion
sperm and eggs are released naturally and have the same genetic code as the individual releasing them, a foetus however is unique because it's a result of the fertilization of 2 sex cells and therefore has it's own genetic code. that's the key difference

Where is there a significant difference? Can you demonstrate that the act of fertilizing the two cells somehow creates something that can legitimately and reasonably be classified as a person and receive all of the freedoms and rights associated with that? You actually have to substantiate this with, you know, evidence and reason. Not just draw the distinction because you feel like it and cause women to both lose significant, positive freedoms and in many cases go through unnecessary suffering.

What about if a woman has a miscarriage? Should we charge her with manslaughter?
#85
Quote by Thrashtastic15
Where is there a significant difference? Can you demonstrate that the act of fertilizing the two cells somehow creates something that can legitimately and reasonably be classified as a person and receive all of the freedoms and rights associated with that? You actually have to substantiate this with, you know, evidence and reason. Not just draw the distinction because you feel like it and cause women to both lose significant, positive freedoms and in many cases go through unnecessary suffering.

What about if a woman has a miscarriage? Should we charge her with manslaughter?

I don't see how you can hold the position that abortion is murder and not follow that accidental deaths of the child need to be treated as manslaughter. Which in turn means supporting that a woman who has just lost her baby has to go to court firstly to prove she didn't purposefully kill her child and then be charged with manslaughter if she manages to.

Considering that 8 of 10 pregnancies end with a dead fetus it would seem impractical to implement this.

I remember in an old thread we discussed whether women would need access to free weekly pregnancy tests so that they could always make sure whether they were pregnant to avoid unknowingly killing a child further down the line.
#86
Quote by willT08
You've avoided the question I asked again and made up your own one where I asked you to compare.

Also, if you can't fathom why a fetus doesn't have any say as to what happens to it I think this discussion might be a bit over your head.


i answered your question and the answer was no, stop trying to play with my words and read what I said again, the fetus doesn't have a say because it doesn't have the capacity to think or speak YET.
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#87
Quote by arabmetallion
i answered your question and the answer was no, stop trying to play with my words and read what I said again, the fetus doesn't have a say because it doesn't have the capacity to think to speak YET.


I'm not. You said no when compared to abortion. This doesn't tell me whether you actually think it's wrong or not, just that you prefer it as an option. Kinda hints that even you think it's wrong really.

So it can't think, can't speak, hasn't experienced anything outside of a womb, hasn't actually experienced the inside of a womb in any meaningful way, is just a cluster of a few cells, no experience of human life whatsoever. Which bit of this smacks of a human life to you?

The fetus doesn't have a say because it's not a human in any meaningful sense of the word. In the UK we stop allowing abortions around the time the brain finishes developing because then the baby is sentient and is a human in a meaningful way. See how that makes sense?
#88
Quote by element4433
This is a very narrow-minded and ill-informed view of pregnancy. Pregnancy changes the make up a woman's body chemically. Having a baby can permanently alter the chemistry of a body. It takes a toll me physically and mentally.

I understand your view on the fetus, but the victim of a violent crime should not be forced to carry more baggage.

Let me throw this scenario out there for you: your best friend is murdered. They catch the guy who did it. Now you have to high five the murderer every day for the rest of you life.

I know that sounds silly, but the point is that when you're a victim you shouldn't be punished more. You should be allowed to heal.


but I wasn't talking about pregnancy I was talking about how people are treated in unfair situations. the child that will be born won't be a reincarnation of the rapist so that's not quite the same thing
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#89
Quote by arabmetallion
but I wasn't talking about pregnancy I was talking about how people are treated in unfair situations. the child that will be born won't be a reincarnation of the rapist so that's not quite the same thing
My point is that you're giving a woman who was RAPED a lifelong commitment. Having a child is a huge deal. It's not a simple as "Just have it."
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Quote by Bob_Sacamano
i kinda wish we all had a penis and vagina instead of buttholes

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#90
Quote by willT08
I'm not. You said no when compared to abortion. This doesn't tell me whether you actually think it's wrong or not, just that you prefer it as an option. Kinda hints that even you think it's wrong really.

So it can't think, can't speak, hasn't experienced anything outside of a womb, hasn't actually experienced the inside of a womb in any meaningful way, is just a cluster of a few cells, no experience of human life whatsoever. Which bit of this smacks of a human life to you?

The fetus doesn't have a say because it's not a human in any meaningful sense of the word. In the UK we stop allowing abortions around the time the brain finishes developing because then the baby is sentient and is a human in a meaningful way. See how that makes sense?


but what difference does that make in the end? if the fetus were left there to grow it would eventually develop completley. a fetus is a clump of living cells so we can all agree that it is "alive" in the scientific sense, but how does having a fully developed brain distinguish it from other animals
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#91
Quote by arabmetallion
but what difference does that make in the end? if the fetus were left there to grow it would eventually develop completley.

Overwhelming chance it wouldn't.

a fetus is a clump of living cells so we can all agree that it is "alive" in the scientific sense, but how does having a fully developed brain distinguish it from other animals

Is this a serious question?

How does human sentience differentiate it from a rat?
#92
Quote by element4433
My point is that you're giving a woman who was RAPED a lifelong commitment. Having a child is a huge deal. It's not a simple as "Just have it."


your making assumptions again there my friend, i did not say that nor did i suggest it. pregnancy is definitely a big deal and all women that go through it should be praised and respected. The point I was making is fixing one wrong with another doesn't seem plausible but of course everyone has a different sense of what's right and wrong, the issue at hand is like Ive said before revolves completely on weather the fetus is infact human
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#93
Quote by willT08
Overwhelming chance it wouldn't.


Is this a serious question?

How does human sentience differentiate it from a rat?


I probably should have phrased it better but what I'm trying to say is, why does having an undeveloped brain distinguish it from being human as opposed to just being a clump of living animal cells?
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#95
Quote by arabmetallion
I probably should have phrased it better but what I'm trying to say is, why does having an undeveloped brain distinguish it from being human as opposed to just being a clump of living animal cells?

Well I think most of society have decided that what distinguishes Humans from the rest of the animal kingdom are our faculties of reason, logic, moral consideration and so on. Or to boil it down to something, our state of consciousness.

A fetus with no developed brain is not in the same state of consciousness as the rest of mankind, it is fundamentally separate from us in that respect (as well as a host of biological things it can't do as well). This is the same reason we allow people with severe brain damage to die at the will of their family, how do you feel about that?

Either way, I believe most abortions tend to happen fairly early on in the pregnancy, long before the question of sentience is even an issue and it really is little more than removing a cyst from your uterus wall.
#96
Doesn't the fact that the fetus is well on its way to becoming a "full" human have any weight? Like, more so than just a mass of cells, post zygote. It has a heartbeat, that's life. It has the genetic make up to make it human. That's...pretty human.
#97
Quote by blake1221
Doesn't the fact that the fetus is well on its way to becoming a "full" human have any weight? Like, more so than just a mass of cells, post zygote. It has a heartbeat, that's life. It has the genetic make up to make it human. That's...pretty human.
I agree 100%.
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Quote by Bob_Sacamano
i kinda wish we all had a penis and vagina instead of buttholes

i mean no offense to buttholes and poop or anything

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#98
Quote by willT08
Well I think most of society have decided that what distinguishes Humans from the rest of the animal kingdom are our faculties of reason, logic, moral consideration and so on. Or to boil it down to something, our state of consciousness.

A fetus with no developed brain is not in the same state of consciousness as the rest of mankind, it is fundamentally separate from us in that respect (as well as a host of biological things it can't do as well). This is the same reason we allow people with severe brain damage to die at the will of their family, how do you feel about that?

Either way, I believe most abortions tend to happen fairly early on in the pregnancy, long before the question of sentience is even an issue and it really is little more than removing a cyst from your uterus wall.


slavery used to be the norm in many societies and was generally socially acceptable untill a large group of people began to oppose it [at different times and locations], you could say the same thing about abortion even though it's a completely different issue and don;t get me wrong I'm not equating the 2
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#99
Quote by blake1221
Doesn't the fact that the fetus is well on its way to becoming a "full" human have any weight? Like, more so than just a mass of cells, post zygote. It has a heartbeat, that's life. It has the genetic make up to make it human. That's...pretty human.

It's never been something that sways me. Lots of things have heartbeats, sentience is the absolute key.

At the moment the best guess we have for when sentience appears is when the brain is developed, and that's where my country draws the line just about. UK limits are almost exactly what I'd legislate given the opportunity.
#100
Quote by arabmetallion
slavery used to be the norm in many societies and was generally socially acceptable untill a large group of people began to oppose it [at different times and locations], you could say the same thing about abortion even though it's a completely different issue and don;t get me wrong I'm not equating the 2

Was that a reaction to "Well I think most of society have decided that what distinguishes Humans from the rest of the animal kingdom are our faculties of reason, logic, moral consideration and so on."?

I don't even know what to say to you any more. Blake, Element, let's get something worthwhile going.
#101
Quote by willT08
It's never been something that sways me. Lots of things have heartbeats, sentience is the absolute key.



http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-204_162-57544227/nickolas-coke-boy-born-without-brain-dies-at-3/

This boy never had sentience. Hunting him down and murdering him should have been all clear, yes?


Quote by willT08
Blake, Element, let's get something worthwhile going.


lol sorry 'bout this one ^^^
#102
Quote by willT08
Was that a reaction to "Well I think most of society have decided that what distinguishes Humans from the rest of the animal kingdom are our faculties of reason, logic, moral consideration and so on."?

I don't even know what to say to you any more. Blake, Element, let's get something worthwhile going.


your assuming all people who are pro abortion always use "faculties of reason, logic, moral consideration" many people accept it out of pure emotion. the same can be said about pro lifers too
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#103
Quote by blake1221
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-204_162-57544227/nickolas-coke-boy-born-without-brain-dies-at-3/

This boy never had sentience. Hunting him down and murdering him should have been all clear, yes?


His family being able to make the choice to euthanize him should have been, certainly.

You're so angry before I've said anything that I doubt much good is gonna come of you. Banking on you Element.

your assuming all people who are pro abortion always use "faculties of reason, logic, moral consideration" many people accept it out of pure emotion. the same can be said about pro lifers too

No, I said that what distinguishes humans from other animals is "faculties of reason, logic, moral consideration". I don't know what that has to do with your point.
Last edited by willT08 at Nov 2, 2012,
#105
Quote by blake1221
Angry? That's a pretty strong emotion. Pretty foreign to me at the moment.


Well presuming I want kids hunted down and killed comes off a bit angry it turns out...
#106
I was being hyperbolic and comparing hunting and killing to poking around a vagina, snaring a fetus by a ligament, then forcibly removing said body, in one to several pieces.
#107
Quote by willT08
His family being able to make the choice to euthanize him should have been, certainly.

You're so angry before I've said anything that I doubt much good is gonna come of you. Banking on you Element.


No, I said what distinguishes humans from other animals is "faculties of reason, logic, moral consideration". I don't know what that has to do with your point.


I misread what you said, my apologies
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#108
Quote by blake1221
I was being hyperbolic and comparing hunting and killing to poking around a vagina, snaring a fetus by a ligament, then forcibly removing said body, in one to several pieces.

Okay.

I misread what you said, my apologies

S'all good my man
#109
I can give my views on abortion, Will. Will that do?

Basically, I do believe that fetuses are human. Not human in the same way as you or me, but human nonetheless. There's something that separates a fetus from being just a cluster of cells. And to me, that the mere fact that it will grow into a person. The thing that made me make this switch is considering the murder of a pregnant woman. The murderer gets two counts of murder: one for the mother and one for the unborn child.

All that said, there's a lot of grey area. Abortion, as in all forms of killing, is not black and white. In the case of rape, it's cruel to force a woman to carry a baby to term. In cases of the life of the mother, you have to save the mother's life. There's even some cases of thirteen year olds having abortions that I'm fine with.

Again, despite all of that, I would never, ever consider myself pro-life. I'm absolutely for giving women the right to decide what's best for her. I may have my views on abortion, but so do you, so does Blake, and so does everybody else. Because the consensus will never be 100% for or against, it has to be legal. There has to be safe abortion for those who want it. It's bad for everybody if it becomes a backroom thing.

Additionally, the solution to abortion is not outlawing abortion; rather, it's providing proper sexual education and resources to those in need.
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i kinda wish we all had a penis and vagina instead of buttholes

i mean no offense to buttholes and poop or anything

Rest in Peace, Troy Davis and Trayvon Martin and Jordan Davis and Eric Garner and Mike Brown
#110
Quote by element4433
I can give my views on abortion, Will. Will that do?

Basically, I do believe that fetuses are human. Not human in the same way as you or me, but human nonetheless. There's something that separates a fetus from being just a cluster of cells. And to me, that the mere fact that it will grow into a person. The thing that made me make this switch is considering the murder of a pregnant woman. The murderer gets two counts of murder: one for the mother and one for the unborn child.

All that said, there's a lot of grey area. Abortion, as in all forms of killing, is not black and white. In the case of rape, it's cruel to force a woman to carry a baby to term. In cases of the life of the mother, you have to save the mother's life. There's even some cases of thirteen year olds having abortions that I'm fine with.

Again, despite all of that, I would never, ever consider myself pro-life. I'm absolutely for giving women the right to decide what's best for her. I may have my views on abortion, but so do you, so does Blake, and so does everybody else. Because the consensus will never be 100% for or against, it has to be legal. There has to be safe abortion for those who want it. It's bad for everybody if it becomes a backroom thing.

Additionally, the solution to abortion is not outlawing abortion; rather, it's providing proper sexual education and resources to those in need.


I agree with all of this.
#111
Quote by blake1221
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-204_162-57544227/nickolas-coke-boy-born-without-brain-dies-at-3/

This boy never had sentience. Hunting him down and murdering him should have been all clear, yes?


I'm going to Devil's Advocate here, because I think this could be an interesting discussion. Don't mad.

Sure. Humans are all animals, the reason that we value our lives above those of animals is due to our increased mental faculties and our capacity for sentience. This boy lacked those things, and so was more like other animals than a person. So it wouldn't be murder in the sense that we consider one person killing another person is murder because he's not a person. He is human, but not a person, just as a fetus is human in its genetic makeup but not a person because it lacks the capacities and faculties that make it function as a person.

It could be argued that it's wrong to kill humans in general out of a sense of preservation of species, but that's just drawing an arbitrary line in the sand between people and other animals as if the sole fact that we are a specific species makes us much different. What separates us from other animals is our increased mental faculties, and without those, our lives are worth no more than theirs.
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#112
Quote by element4433
I can give my views on abortion, Will. Will that do?

Basically, I do believe that fetuses are human. Not human in the same way as you or me, but human nonetheless. There's something that separates a fetus from being just a cluster of cells. And to me, that the mere fact that it will grow into a person. The thing that made me make this switch is considering the murder of a pregnant woman. The murderer gets two counts of murder: one for the mother and one for the unborn child.

All that said, there's a lot of grey area. Abortion, as in all forms of killing, is not black and white. In the case of rape, it's cruel to force a woman to carry a baby to term. In cases of the life of the mother, you have to save the mother's life. There's even some cases of thirteen year olds having abortions that I'm fine with.

Again, despite all of that, I would never, ever consider myself pro-life. I'm absolutely for giving women the right to decide what's best for her. I may have my views on abortion, but so do you, so does Blake, and so does everybody else. Because the consensus will never be 100% for or against, it has to be legal. There has to be safe abortion for those who want it. It's bad for everybody if it becomes a backroom thing.

Additionally, the solution to abortion is not outlawing abortion; rather, it's providing proper sexual education and resources to those in need.

All of this is an extremely intellectually thought out post.
I sincerely applaud you and agree with you 100%.
#113
Quote by element4433
I can give my views on abortion, Will. Will that do?

That'd be lovely

Basically, I do believe that fetuses are human. Not human in the same way as you or me, but human nonetheless. There's something that separates a fetus from being just a cluster of cells. And to me, that the mere fact that it will grow into a person. The thing that made me make this switch is considering the murder of a pregnant woman. The murderer gets two counts of murder: one for the mother and one for the unborn child.
I hear this an awful lot, but I've never really felt it myself. What about the potential of a life form is so important? In no other species is any consideration given to it's potential. Is there some kind of limit on that murder law by the way?

Surely you're not getting two counts of murder if the baby is like 3 weeks old?

All that said, there's a lot of grey area. Abortion, as in all forms of killing, is not black and white. In the case of rape, it's cruel to force a woman to carry a baby to term. In cases of the life of the mother, you have to save the mother's life. There's even some cases of thirteen year olds having abortions that I'm fine with.

Agreed on all of this.

Again, despite all of that, I would never, ever consider myself pro-life. I'm absolutely for giving women the right to decide what's best for her. I may have my views on abortion, but so do you, so does Blake, and so does everybody else. Because the consensus will never be 100% for or against, it has to be legal. There has to be safe abortion for those who want it. It's bad for everybody if it becomes a backroom thing.
Agreed on all of this.

Additionally, the solution to abortion is not outlawing abortion; rather, it's providing proper sexual education and resources to those in need.
Especially agreed on this.

EDIT: So it seems like the only discrepancy we have between me, blake and you is this 'potential for life' thing. I really would like to see someone explain further why this is such a big deal if anyone can be bothered.
Last edited by willT08 at Nov 2, 2012,
#114
Quote by MAC2322
I'm going to Devil's Advocate here, because I think this could be an interesting discussion. Don't mad.

Sure. Humans are all animals, the reason that we value our lives above those of animals is due to our increased mental faculties and our capacity for sentience. This boy lacked those things, and so was more like other animals than a person. So it wouldn't be murder in the sense that we consider one person killing another person is murder because he's not a person. He is human, but not a person, just as a fetus is human in its genetic makeup but not a person because it lacks the capacities and faculties that make it function as a person.

It could be argued that it's wrong to kill humans in general out of a sense of preservation of species, but that's just drawing an arbitrary line in the sand between people and other animals as if the sole fact that we are a specific species makes us much different. What separates us from other animals is our increased mental faculties, and without those, our lives are worth no more than theirs.


I've thought along these lines before, and come to the conclusion that is unfair to rule out the killing of humans in this thought process if killing animals is okay.
#115
Quote by element4433

Additionally, the solution to abortion is not outlawing abortion; rather, it's providing proper sexual education and resources to those in need.


as a pro lifer I agree 100%
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#116
To me, it's about giving human life the respect that it deserves. I'm not particularly religious, but there's something that separates us humans from every other animal.

And it depends on the case, but a person can get two counts even if she's only days pregnant.
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Quote by Bob_Sacamano
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#117
Quote by element4433
To me, it's about giving human life the respect that it deserves. I'm not particularly religious, but there's something that separates us humans from every other animal.

I agree, but I'd say that this is the stuff I laid out before which isn't present in a fetus until a fairly late stage in the pregnancy.

And it depends on the case, but a person can get two counts even if she's only days pregnant.

That is absurd.

EDIT: Labelling people against me as 'pro-life' kinda makes me uncomfortable as well, as if I'm anti-life. I'm just more concerned with standard of life than sheer volume.
Last edited by willT08 at Nov 2, 2012,
#118
Quote by arabmetallion
as a pro lifer I agree 100%
That's the thing about the abortion debate. I don't like even debating it. Let's get more funding for sex education and access to contraceptives and we won't need to debate abortion; it won't be much of an issue.
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Quote by Bob_Sacamano
i kinda wish we all had a penis and vagina instead of buttholes

i mean no offense to buttholes and poop or anything

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#119
Quote by willT08

That is absurd.


Is it, though? Let's say a husband, whose wife and himself had been trying to get pregnant, finally find out the good news. They're elated; they're going to have a child. Someone murders the wife.

You think he's going to be only saddened by his wife's death, and not the fact that his unborn child is no more?
#120
Quote by blake1221
Is it, though? Let's say a husband, whose wife and himself had been trying to get pregnant, finally find out the good news. They're elated; they're going to have a child. Someone murders the wife.

You think he's going to be only saddened by his wife's death, and not the fact that his unborn child is no more?

But when people get abortions, they WANT the child to be aborted/dead.

EDIT: Not sure why I'm getting involved with this.