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#121
Quote by blake1221
Is it, though? Let's say a husband, whose wife and himself had been trying to get pregnant, finally find out the good news. They're elated; they're going to have a child. Someone murders the wife.

You think he's going to be only saddened by his wife's death, and not the fact that his unborn child is no more?

No, but neither do I think that law should be moulded around how victims feel.

EDIT: ^^^He's talking about a murder law that's come up, not trying to draw analogies.
#122
Quote by element4433
That's the thing about the abortion debate. I don't like even debating it. Let's get more funding for sex education and access to contraceptives and we won't need to debate abortion; it won't be much of an issue.


and that's where i have to disagree my friend, i don't think we should stop debating abortion because it's definitely a major issue. Even if abortions are illegal people will still have them which is why i don't think outlawing it completely is the a smart thing to do. I agree that people should be educated about sex but I also think people should not be so accepting of abortion and I don't think access to contraceptives will solve anything because many teens will still not use them
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#123
You see how it kind of throws a wrench in the abortion debate though?
*-)
Quote by Bob_Sacamano
i kinda wish we all had a penis and vagina instead of buttholes

i mean no offense to buttholes and poop or anything

Rest in Peace, Troy Davis and Trayvon Martin and Jordan Davis and Eric Garner and Mike Brown
#124
Quote by willT08
He's talking about a murder law that's come up, not trying to draw analogies.

Ah, right.
#125
Quote by arabmetallion
and that's where i have to disagree my friend, i don't think we should stop debating abortion because it's definitely a major issue. Even if abortions are illegal people will still have them which is why i don't think outlawing it completely is the a smart thing to do. I agree that people should be educated about sex but I also think people should not be so accepting of abortion and I don't think access to contraceptives will solve anything because many teens will still not use them
I never said that we should stop. I said that we won't have to debate it because it won't be a problem any more. At least not one big enough to warrant much debate.
*-)
Quote by Bob_Sacamano
i kinda wish we all had a penis and vagina instead of buttholes

i mean no offense to buttholes and poop or anything

Rest in Peace, Troy Davis and Trayvon Martin and Jordan Davis and Eric Garner and Mike Brown
#126
Well I'm pro-choice until the end, so unless this new upcoming law has some groundbreaking points that make me weigh my viewpoints then...
#127
Quote by willT08
No, but neither do I think that law should be moulded around how victims feel.


Fair enough, but that was a life in their eyes. That was going to be their kid.
#128
Quote by neidnarb11890
>become irate w/ republicans for rape comments
>defend murderers of pregnant womyn against double homicide charges


Have I been irate? I've been trying to keep it tempered.

Fair enough, but that was a life in their eyes. That was going to be their kid.
And that is devastating. This however doesn't mean the man murdered their child. How can you knowingly murder a child you don't know existed?

At worst they should get a manslaughter charge for the child, unless you can prove that they knew the woman was pregnant. The idea that man could murder a fetus only days into pregnancy when there is no possible way that they could know the woman is pregnant is absurd. He could certainly kill it though. But there's a difference.
Last edited by willT08 at Nov 2, 2012,
#129
Quote by element4433
I never said that we should stop. I said that we won't have to debate it because it won't be a problem any more. At least not one big enough to warrant much debate.


my mistake bro, i have this huge headache atm so pardon me for assuming shit
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#130
Quote by willT08
Have I been irate? I've been trying to keep it tempered.

And that is devastating. This however doesn't mean the man murdered their child. How can you knowingly murder a child you don't know existed?

At worst they should get a manslaughter charge for the child, unless you can prove that they knew the woman was pregnant. The idea that man could murder a fetus only days into pregnancy when there is no possible way that they could know the woman is pregnant is absurd. He could certainly kill it though. But there's a difference.
Because the child is there--it exists. If you don't see a speed limit sign posted and you drive 55, you can still get pulled over if the speed limit is 45.
*-)
Quote by Bob_Sacamano
i kinda wish we all had a penis and vagina instead of buttholes

i mean no offense to buttholes and poop or anything

Rest in Peace, Troy Davis and Trayvon Martin and Jordan Davis and Eric Garner and Mike Brown
#131
Quote by element4433
Because the child is there--it exists. If you don't see a speed limit sign posted and you drive 55, you can still get pulled over if the speed limit is 45.

But if there's never a sign you'd see why it'd be absurd to be prosecuting people doing 55? It's not a matter of seeing it, it was impossible for you to know.
#132
So you're saying that a murderer would thing twice about murdering somebody if he knew she was a few days/weeks pregnant?
*-)
Quote by Bob_Sacamano
i kinda wish we all had a penis and vagina instead of buttholes

i mean no offense to buttholes and poop or anything

Rest in Peace, Troy Davis and Trayvon Martin and Jordan Davis and Eric Garner and Mike Brown
#133
Quote by element4433
So you're saying that a murderer would thing twice about murdering somebody if he knew she was a few days/weeks pregnant?

What's that got to do with anything?

Do you think it's absurd or not to prosecute people for crimes it was impossible for them to know they were committing? Especially when in the crime we're talking about, murder, knowing that you're committing it is a prerequisite to it being murder.

I've given you manslaughter charges, what more do you want?
#134
I'm not so sure how well the ignorance plea holds up in court.


"Your honor, I did not know that it was illegal to get hyped on peyote and drive my car into a building."
#135
If someone stabs a pregnant woman and kills her fetus but not her, does he get charged with murder, or is it just an assault/attempted murder/whatever charge they give him for the attack on her?

Just wondering.
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I swear this guy in particular writes for the telegraph or some shit.

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#136
Quote by blake1221
I'm not so sure how well the ignorance plea holds up in court.


"Your honor, I did not know that it was illegal to get hyped on peyote and drive my car into a building."

It's not the same because in this case it is literally impossible to know without being told by the woman. And for it to be a murder, they would have to be knowingly killing the child. This is why I'm conceding manslaughter for the 3rd time, please take it or read up on what a murder is.
Last edited by willT08 at Nov 2, 2012,
#137
Quote by willT08
What's that got to do with anything?

Do you think it's absurd or not to prosecute people for crimes it was impossible for them to know they were committing? Especially when in the crime we're talking about, murder, knowing that you're committing it is a prerequisite to it being murder.

I've given you manslaughter charges, what more do you want?
It's impossible to know that killing somebody will kill somebody?
*-)
Quote by Bob_Sacamano
i kinda wish we all had a penis and vagina instead of buttholes

i mean no offense to buttholes and poop or anything

Rest in Peace, Troy Davis and Trayvon Martin and Jordan Davis and Eric Garner and Mike Brown
#138
Quote by ErikLensherr
If someone stabs a pregnant woman and kills her fetus but not her, does he get charged with murder, or is it just an assault/attempted murder/whatever charge they give him for the attack on her?

Just wondering.


Well, then it's just abortion. So probably just assault with a deadly weapon on the woman. Unless he was trying to kill her. Then it's attempted murder. Unless he didn't know that murder is bad. Then it's just attempted manslaughter.
Last edited by blake1221 at Nov 2, 2012,
#139
Quote by element4433
It's impossible to know that killing somebody will kill somebody?

It's impossible to know that killing a woman is killing a days old fetus unless she has told you prior to it that she's pregnant.

Do you contend this?

Unless he didn't know that murder is bad. Then it's just attempted manslaughter.
Oh you can't be serious.
#140
Quote by willT08

Oh you can't be serious.


hahaha I'm just keeping up with your parameters.
#141
Quote by blake1221
hahaha I'm just keeping up with your parameters.

No you're not, and no rational person reading through this is going to think you are.
#142
No, but that doesn't make it any less of a murder.

Did you know that if you rob a gas station, and the clerk gets so scared that he has a heart attack, that's considered criminal homicide, which carries the same weight as first degree murder?

Did you know that if you're in a gun fight with police and the police hit innocent bystanders, you're the one held responsible for their deaths?
*-)
Quote by Bob_Sacamano
i kinda wish we all had a penis and vagina instead of buttholes

i mean no offense to buttholes and poop or anything

Rest in Peace, Troy Davis and Trayvon Martin and Jordan Davis and Eric Garner and Mike Brown
#143
Quote by element4433
No, but that doesn't make it any less of a murder.
Yes it does. In fact, I can think of a number of situations where you kill someone but aren't charged with murder.

Did you know that if you rob a gas station, and the clerk gets so scared that he has a heart attack, that's considered criminal homicide, which carries the same weight as first degree murder?

Did you know that if you're in a gun fight with police and the police hit innocent bystanders, you're the one held responsible for their deaths?

Oh no, you've done it already.
#144
No, you're charged with murder in those situations.
*-)
Quote by Bob_Sacamano
i kinda wish we all had a penis and vagina instead of buttholes

i mean no offense to buttholes and poop or anything

Rest in Peace, Troy Davis and Trayvon Martin and Jordan Davis and Eric Garner and Mike Brown
#145
Quote by element4433
No, you're charged with murder in those situations.


Is criminal homicide the exact same as murder? You just said it holds the same weight.

And there's no way you're being charged with an actual murder in the second one. Something with a similar sentence, sure, but not actually murder. Well, maybe where you live.

EDIT: Quickly looking through and it seems to me that criminal homicide includes all kinds of manslaughter. Hardly the same as being charged with murder.

EDIT2: Why I've let us go this long pretending the law is actually a source of any morality is beyond me.

EDIT3: Also, in both of those situations it's possible to know that you're actions could lead to the deaths of people. How you guys distinguish between 'potential life' and cell clusters but not premeditated murder and manslaughter of a fetus is also beyond me.
Last edited by willT08 at Nov 2, 2012,
#146
The first scenario is criminal homicide, which is pretty much murder. The second is first degree murder.

The problem with murder discussion is that there's a lot more to murder charges. There's a lot of factors that goes into deciding the charge and all that stuff, so that prevents it from being super easy to generalize.

The point is, though, when you kill somebody you are held responsible for it. Let's say you're robbing a gas station. You fire two shots. You miss the target, but one of the bullets goes through a wall, hitting somebody on the other side. You'd be charged with murder, even though your intention wasn't to kill that person and you had no idea he was behind that wall.
*-)
Quote by Bob_Sacamano
i kinda wish we all had a penis and vagina instead of buttholes

i mean no offense to buttholes and poop or anything

Rest in Peace, Troy Davis and Trayvon Martin and Jordan Davis and Eric Garner and Mike Brown
#147
Quote by element4433

The point is, though, when you kill somebody you are held responsible for it. Let's say you're robbing a gas station. You fire two shots. You miss the target, but one of the bullets goes through a wall, hitting somebody on the other side. You'd be charged with murder, even though your intention wasn't to kill that person and you had no idea he was behind that wall.


Yes, but there's a difference between not knowing and it being impossible to know. I really don't see how you guys aren't seeing this distinction. It's giving me a headache, seriously. I've had to take my hat off.

EDIT: I can't believe you actually get charged with first degree in that second situation.
#148
I don't get your point.
*-)
Quote by Bob_Sacamano
i kinda wish we all had a penis and vagina instead of buttholes

i mean no offense to buttholes and poop or anything

Rest in Peace, Troy Davis and Trayvon Martin and Jordan Davis and Eric Garner and Mike Brown
#149
Quote by element4433
I don't get your point.

It is not unforeseeable that shooting at a wall is going to kill someone behind the wall. You're just ignorant of whether there is or not. This is not the same as killing a days old fetus where it is literally impossible for you to know that you'd be killing it by shooting/killing the woman.

It's manslaughter, not murder.
#150
It's not unforeseeable that a sexually mature woman could be pregnant.
*-)
Quote by Bob_Sacamano
i kinda wish we all had a penis and vagina instead of buttholes

i mean no offense to buttholes and poop or anything

Rest in Peace, Troy Davis and Trayvon Martin and Jordan Davis and Eric Garner and Mike Brown
#151
Quote by element4433
It's not unforeseeable that a sexually mature woman could be pregnant.

But it's ****ing impossible to know! And at only a few days old it's nigh on impossible for the woman to ****ing know! How the hell did I even get dragged in to this impossible situation.

I can't believe you're comparing being ignorant of whether a person is behind a wall to knowing whether a woman is carrying a days old fetus.

EDIT: I also realize we've completely moved on from whether abortion itself is right since none of you seem to be able to explain why the 'potential' of a life form is important.
Last edited by willT08 at Nov 2, 2012,
#152
Don't you get two counts of murder or whatever if you kill a pregnant chick?

Anyway, I agree 100% with Element, Blake, and others. Except I think I would probably be okay with making late term abortions illegal (unless life dangering). I don't give a shit if it's not technically human in the way that we are, common sense says that it's natural state is to become a human, so I understand and sympathize with the pro-life perspective in that way as one who assigns value to all life.

I'm pro-choice for pragmatic reasons. And freedom. Cuz the chick (and dude) should be able to decide. And also cuz it just flat out wouldn't be sustainable for people who don't want kids to have them and overpopulate adoption centers that are already overpopulated. And cuz if people are gonna have them anyway then they might as well be able to do it safely. Just one of those things so grey that you can't reasonably force it on people, especially when they can argue that a fetus isn't technically human.
“Just to sum up: I would do various things very quickly.” - Donald Trump
#153
Oh yeah, before I go out to the bar, I would just like to say, I am pro-choice. Or whatever. I think abortion can be pretty ****ed up, but overall, it's the woman's choice and all that jazz.
#154
Quote by willT08
But it's ****ing impossible to know! And at only a few days old it's nigh on impossible for the woman to ****ing know! How the hell did I even get dragged in to this impossible situation.

I can't believe you're comparing being ignorant of whether a person is behind a wall to knowing whether a woman is carrying a days old fetus.

EDIT: I also realize we've completely moved on from whether abortion itself is right since none of you seem to be able to explain why the 'potential' of a life form is important.
Jeez, calm down. You're the one that asked for debate.

I can't believe how badly you're missing the point. Being that you can kill a person without knowing that you're killing them. You're arguing something that doesn't matter.

I thought I explained the potential thing. Potential for life is what separates a fetus from something like a tumor.
*-)
Quote by Bob_Sacamano
i kinda wish we all had a penis and vagina instead of buttholes

i mean no offense to buttholes and poop or anything

Rest in Peace, Troy Davis and Trayvon Martin and Jordan Davis and Eric Garner and Mike Brown
#155
you guys are ignant. murder is not strict liability. if you didn't mean to kill someone, it's not murder.
#156
To the pro-life folk.

Quote by Mudmen190
If you were in a burning building, and there were 30 fertilized and developing fetuses and one 3 month old baby, and you could only save one, you would save the fetuses?


Only imagine then giving that baby/those fetuses to a complete stranger(s) in the middle of their life, regardless of whether they want or can support it financially and emotionally, who may have never even had consensual sex.
#157
There's a difference between murder and manslaughter.

However, the act of firing a gun prove intent, which is key in a murder charge.

If you're killing a pregnant woman, with the intent to kill, that's murder of her and the unborn child. Because the intent to kill is there.
*-)
Quote by Bob_Sacamano
i kinda wish we all had a penis and vagina instead of buttholes

i mean no offense to buttholes and poop or anything

Rest in Peace, Troy Davis and Trayvon Martin and Jordan Davis and Eric Garner and Mike Brown
#158
Quote by element4433
I can give my views on abortion, Will. Will that do?

Basically, I do believe that fetuses are human. Not human in the same way as you or me, but human nonetheless. There's something that separates a fetus from being just a cluster of cells. And to me, that the mere fact that it will grow into a person. The thing that made me make this switch is considering the murder of a pregnant woman. The murderer gets two counts of murder: one for the mother and one for the unborn child.

All that said, there's a lot of grey area. Abortion, as in all forms of killing, is not black and white. In the case of rape, it's cruel to force a woman to carry a baby to term. In cases of the life of the mother, you have to save the mother's life. There's even some cases of thirteen year olds having abortions that I'm fine with.

Again, despite all of that, I would never, ever consider myself pro-life. I'm absolutely for giving women the right to decide what's best for her. I may have my views on abortion, but so do you, so does Blake, and so does everybody else. Because the consensus will never be 100% for or against, it has to be legal. There has to be safe abortion for those who want it. It's bad for everybody if it becomes a backroom thing.

Additionally, the solution to abortion is not outlawing abortion; rather, it's providing proper sexual education and resources to those in need.

All dis right here.
___

Quote by The_Blode
she was saying things like... do you want to netflix and chill but just the chill part...too bad she'll never know that I only like the Netflix part...
#159
Quote by element4433
There's a difference between murder and manslaughter.

However, the act of firing a gun prove intent, which is key in a murder charge.

If you're killing a pregnant woman, with the intent to kill, that's murder of her and the unborn child. Because the intent to kill is there.


the intent to kill her. if you fire your gun at your boss but mortally wound the janitor instead, you haven't committed murder.

more relevant, actually, if you shoot your boss but the bullet also hits the janitors and kills him, you have only committed one count of murder and one count of involuntary manslaughter.
Last edited by Eastwinn at Nov 3, 2012,
#160
Yes it does. It counts as felony murder.

I used the wrong term earlier. It's called Felony murder, not criminal homicide. I'm dumb.
*-)
Quote by Bob_Sacamano
i kinda wish we all had a penis and vagina instead of buttholes

i mean no offense to buttholes and poop or anything

Rest in Peace, Troy Davis and Trayvon Martin and Jordan Davis and Eric Garner and Mike Brown