Page 5 of 7
#161
Quote by Offworld92
I get the power aspect, no idea how that has anything to do with physical weight though.

These concepts are kind of hard to grasp.

You'd think I'd understand more considering I aced physics the entire year I took it.

Simply because if the design is less efficient, you need more power to compensate, and using more and more power tends to increase the size of the components, thus increasing the weight.
Hey, look. Sigs are back.
#162
Is the part in question that this is all directly related to the output transformer? Or does it deal with the entire poweramp section?

And also, so I can get a real world grasp with stuff I definitely understand, can you give examples of some amps that are particularly inefficient, and some of the opposite?
Spin 'round carousel when your horse isn't screwed in.

My band:
Fractured Instinct
(For fans of Death/Groove/Prog Metal)

Ibanez RGA42E
Ibanez S420
LTD H-301
Ibanez RG520
Peavey Predator USA
Douglas Grendel 725
Line 6 Pod HD500X
Last edited by Offworld92 at Nov 8, 2012,
#163
Quote by Offworld92
Is the part in question that this is all directly related to the output transformer? Or does it deal with the entire poweramp section?


actually, the whole design, but usually the power amp section since it increases the amplitude of the signal the most.

Quote by Offworld92
And also, so I can get a real world grasp with stuff I definitely understand, can you give examples of some amps that are particularly inefficient, and some of the opposite?


not explicitly. there is not like one design that is really horrible compared to another that i know of. all amps are pretty are pretty much gonna be efficient within a range.

but some designs that are less efficient than others? my class A THD bivalve is less efficient than my class A/B orange OR50H (the THD make 30 watts with two EL34's while the orange makes 50 watts with two EL34's)
punk isn't dead, it's always smelled that way.

"A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem."
-ae
#164
Was halfway through writing a huge reply, but gumbilicious has this covered better than me and is more concise with it too

Valves date back to wartime, in battlefield radios, and are an old technology. Things have moved on a lot since then, and in many situations solid-state technology is king. Valves have a tonal impact though, that we have grown to perceive as nicer or warmer or _____ (insert favourite buzzword about valves) and so we persevere

Most Class A designs are quite low wattage (I believe the majority of those 5W micro-heads designed for cranking, as mentioned in the OP, are Class A?). Most of the bigger, 50-100 Watt amps are A/B, due to the increased efficiency.
Hey, look. Sigs are back.
#165
Could it be said that the higher the wattage per tube, the higher the efficiency?
Spin 'round carousel when your horse isn't screwed in.

My band:
Fractured Instinct
(For fans of Death/Groove/Prog Metal)

Ibanez RGA42E
Ibanez S420
LTD H-301
Ibanez RG520
Peavey Predator USA
Douglas Grendel 725
Line 6 Pod HD500X
#166
Quote by Offworld92
Could it be said that the higher the wattage per tube, the higher the efficiency?

You mean the higher the amp's output, relative to the number of tubes, the higher the efficiency, right?

It isn't just the tubes (gah, I hate not saying valves... damn you, Americans! ) that dictate the stated efficiency of an amplifier, but it is an indication I guess. It depends though, as devices don't necessarily run the valves (Ha! ) to the same levels.

As gumbilicious mentioned, his amp has two valves in Class A, and it gives off 30W. Many of the amps I mentioned are only 5-10W, and have 1 output valve in Class A. 5W is a lot less than 30W, for the sake of doubling the number of valves... if that makes any sense.
Hey, look. Sigs are back.
#167
^yeah, i also used to have a princeton that runs two 6V6's at 22 watts and an old ass 50's supro that runs two 6V6's at ~5 watts. (mainly cuz they use different class of operation)

Quote by DisarmGoliath
Was halfway through writing a huge reply, but gumbilicious has this covered better than me and is more concise with it too


that is like the first time ever. i usually go on and on and on... i tend to use 10 word where 2 is just fine.



Quote by offworld
Could it be said that the higher the wattage per tube, the higher the efficiency?


yeah, that is loosely what efficiency is. a watt is a rate of energy conversion, so [given the same tube] if one amp has more watt per tube than another then it is more efficient. much the same way if one car has more horse power per displacement it is more efficient.

now i say same tubes, cuz just like a car engine can have bigger cylinders (more fuel, more volume, etc) then another amp can use bigger tubes (more plate voltage, different design, etc) and then the comparison becomes more complicated.
punk isn't dead, it's always smelled that way.

"A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem."
-ae
Last edited by gumbilicious at Nov 8, 2012,
#168
the output wattage isn't necessarily an indicator of efficiency.

you need to know the actual current draw between two amps as well.

class A is less efficient then class a/b because the actual draw is higher for less output wattage.
Prs se Holcomb is the answer
#169
A 'perfect' class A amp will dissipate half the energy it receives. So a perfect 50 watt class A amp will require 100 watts to dissipate 50 watts.

A 'perfect' class AB amp will dissipate 78.4999% of the energy it receives. So a perfect 50 watt class AB amp will require ~64 watts to dissipate 50 watts.

Thats in a perfect world, but it illustrates the point. The class A amp will require a beefier power supply (which will include a large power transformer) meaning it will be heavier.
I don't give a shit if you listen to me or not
#170
Quote by gumbilicious
well his theory was kinda... interesting. but he was right in how he portrayed the signals being passed through the component. vacuum tubes do pass a current through... well, a vacuum. transistors do pass current through a lattice structure.

as far as 'fragile harmonics' sustaining themselves better in a vacuum than through transistors... no idea.

does kinda sound new-age though doesn't it?



I could be very wrong about this, but I was thinking that his "theory" suggested that the lattice was destroying electrons? Which is something that I thought was against the laws of physics. I'm no physicist, though, so I could be making that up
#172
^beautiful. one of your best 311

sorry craig

Quote by Blktiger0
I could be very wrong about this, but I was thinking that his "theory" suggested that the lattice was destroying electrons? Which is something that I thought was against the laws of physics. I'm no physicist, though, so I could be making that up


who knows what he was really intending. i interpreted it as the signal wouldn't 'maintain' the harmonic structure. i viewed what he said that the way electrons propagate through a lattice destroys some of the information in the signal they were supposed to carry/represent.

about your statement with electrons: destroying matter in a classical is very much not allowed. so your statement is quite correct in a classical perspective.

if you really wanna get down to some quantum BS, electrons can be annihilated. for example light with more than a certain threshold amount of energy (i wanna say .511 MeV, but i am not sure) can produce particle-antiparticle pairs (specifically an electron/positron pair) that annihilate each other. while this could be interpreted as 'destroying' a photon to create an electron [and positron] that then annihilate again destroying the electron positron pair, you can also see it as a complex particle interaction that still meets the requirements of conservation of mass/energy.

also, from a quantum standpoint, an electron is no more than just a disturbance of the electron field throughout space. this gives rise to 'no hair' theorems attributed to electrons which make creation/destruction of a electron even less classical.

you can also wax on about matter passing beyond the event horizon of a black hole, these particles are effectively no longer a part of the universe we experience... though once again it is thought that mass/energy conservation is maintained because their entropy content still exists in the black hole's information content.

i like physics (i am not a physicist), and i take almost any opportunity to talk physics. so don't look into this post much more than that.
punk isn't dead, it's always smelled that way.

"A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem."
-ae
Last edited by gumbilicious at Nov 9, 2012,
#173
Quote by DisarmGoliath
Was halfway through writing a huge reply, but gumbilicious has this covered better than me and is more concise with it too
Gumbi concise? Can such things be?
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#174
Quote by Cathbard
Gumbi concise? Can such things be?




it was a mistake, i promise.
punk isn't dead, it's always smelled that way.

"A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem."
-ae
#175
Quote by gumbilicious
^beautiful. one of your best 311

sorry craig


who knows what he was really intending. i interpreted it as the signal wouldn't 'maintain' the harmonic structure. i viewed what he said that the way electrons propagate through a lattice destroys some of the information in the signal they were supposed to carry/represent.

about your statement with electrons: destroying matter in a classical is very much not allowed. so your statement is quite correct in a classical perspective.

if you really wanna get down to some quantum BS, electrons can be annihilated. for example light with more than a certain threshold amount of energy (i wanna say .511 MeV, but i am not sure) can produce particle-antiparticle pairs (specifically an electron/positron pair) that annihilate each other. while this could be interpreted as 'destroying' a photon to create an electron [and positron] that then annihilate again destroying the electron positron pair, you can also see it as a complex particle interaction that still meets the requirements of conservation of mass/energy.

also, from a quantum standpoint, an electron is no more than just a disturbance of the electron field throughout space. this gives rise to 'no hair' theorems attributed to electrons which make creation/destruction of a electron even less classical.

you can also wax on about matter passing beyond the event horizon of a black hole, these particles are effectively no longer a part of the universe we experience... though once again it is thought that mass/energy conservation is maintained because their entropy content still exists in the black hole's information content.

i like physics (i am not a physicist), and i take almost any opportunity to talk physics. so don't look into this post much more than that.


Well, that was certainly more than I bargained for

Seeing as my knowledge of physics comes from what I've learned through chemistry, I would say quantum level stuff is beyond what I know. Definitely interesting as hell. I honestly could sit here and read shit like that all day long. If you ever feel like a lecture, let me know...I'll be all ears!

I haven't watched that clip in a good while, so I would have to hear his workding again for interpretation. I seriously doubt that he truly meant that electrons were being destroyed. Anyone with the knowledge to build an amp should know better than that. That whole encounter with Kaiser and Dumble is just so ridiculous in my view that it's too fun to poke fun at.

Quote by Cathbard
Gumbi concise? Can such things be?


I take his side on this. As someone with the same issue, I can relate

This is a bit off topic, but it just hit me that you (most likely) have an Australian Accent, which is awesome. Being American is boring as hell. The best Accent we have is Southern, which is boring and usually related with lack of inteligence, thanks to media. (Note that I don't view it that way)

You're just working up a checklist of awesome.

Old? Check.
Grumpy? Check.
Straight-forward? Check.
Australian? Check.
Amp Tech? Check.
Coat with JJ's sewn into lining? Check.
Riduculous story about Thunderstorm? Check.
Make amps out of Jack Daniels Tins? Check.

I just hope to god that you had to walk to 3 miles to school, uphill both ways, in two feet of snow.
#176
Quote by Blktiger0
Well, that was certainly more than I bargained for

Seeing as my knowledge of physics comes from what I've learned through chemistry, I would say quantum level stuff is beyond what I know. Definitely interesting as hell. I honestly could sit here and read shit like that all day long. If you ever feel like a lecture, let me know...I'll be all ears!


i am too worried i'd put my foot in my mouth

Quote by Blktiger0
I haven't watched that clip in a good while, so I would have to hear his workding again for interpretation. I seriously doubt that he truly meant that electrons were being destroyed. Anyone with the knowledge to build an amp should know better than that. That whole encounter with Kaiser and Dumble is just so ridiculous in my view that it's too fun to poke fun at.


i am not sure, but kaiser looked like he just did four rails before he went on camera and dumble looked like he just popped some 'ludes before his monologue on fragile harmonics.

Quote by Blktiger0
This is a bit off topic, but it just hit me that you (most likely) have an Australian Accent, which is awesome. Being American is boring as hell. The best Accent we have is Southern, which is boring and usually related with lack of inteligence, thanks to media. (Note that I don't view it that way)


yeah, i talked to him once on skype to help him check it out. he's got one of those good-ol'-boy aussie accents, not nearly as gruff sounding as you'd think. i had an old version of skype at the time so i didn't see what he looked like, but i always picture him like

punk isn't dead, it's always smelled that way.

"A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem."
-ae
#177
Quote by gumbilicious
i am too worried i'd put my foot in my mouth


i am not sure, but kaiser looked like he just did four rails before he went on camera and dumble looked like he just popped some 'ludes before his monologue on fragile harmonics.


yeah, i talked to him once on skype to help him check it out. he's got one of those good-ol'-boy aussie accents, not nearly as gruff sounding as you'd think. i had an old version of skype at the time so i didn't see what he looked like, but i always picture him like



Hey, I wouldn't ever know, plus I would learn something, which always makes me happy

At least you would start with your foot OUT of your mouth. I pretty much live with mine in my mouth

They HAD to be on SOMETHING.

I'm kinda jealous. There is just an infinite amount of awesome shit I could learn from him about things that truly intrest me and would be useful to me. I WISH I could be an amp tech. In fact, I wish I could build my own amps. It would be such a rewarding experience. I envy guys that can. It's so damn rewarding to make something yourself that you get use out of. Thank Odin my grandpa has a woodshop. Before long, I'll be making my own guitar. I'm thinking I'll probably just buy a neck to use, though. Putting in the frets and shaping the neck and whatnot are above what I'm ready for. I'm thinking I'll be doing a Gibson V clone.

Personally, though, I have a similar image of Cath in my head, but I picture him more like this:

#178
^that is great

to tell truth, i always kinda picture him with a beard too.

you know min (Acoustic Mirror) pretty much just dove into amp electronics and he was doing successful mods in under 2 years and i heard he is even doing some fabrication. i haven't made it to amps, but i spent a little time tinkering with pedals and had some success (i can make a DS-1 sound pretty good now).

just start reading books, ask cath, craig, min, or even the guys in the GB&C and the pedalboard thread where to start learning stuff.
punk isn't dead, it's always smelled that way.

"A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem."
-ae
#179
I think the only reason I haven't is that I just don't have the time and resources that a hobby like that deserves. It's definitely something that I'll end up looking into. At the moment, I'm trying that whole "get famous with music" thing. Seeing as how the odds of that working out aren't the highest, if it ends up down the tube, I'll have a back up to switch to. If it works out, I'll be able to afford the pedals and amps and whatnot to play with. Most of my money gets spent in gas, upkeep, etc. to keep my band going, plus most of my extra time is spent playing guitar to improve my skills. I've had to basically drop a bunch of hobbies lately so that I can focus more on my main one.

Also, I've recently discovered that my issue with concentrating on things stems from having Adult ADHD, which I need to get medicated and haven't, so reading about these things should be easier after that. It sucks when you can't even focus on things you WANT to focus on
#180
You have an Egnater Vengeance. That's all you need to be famous.
Quote by Dunning~Kruger
Yes I was rude, and I was aggressive and I was offending a large group of people. But I was civlized about it.

Taylor 414CE
#182
This is gold right here


Quote by Blktiger0

You're just working up a checklist of awesome.

Old? Check.
Grumpy? Check.
Straight-forward? Check.
Australian? Check.
Amp Tech? Check.
Coat with JJ's sewn into lining? Check.
Riduculous story about Thunderstorm? Check.
Make amps out of Jack Daniels Tins? Check.

I just hope to god that you had to walk to 3 miles to school, uphill both ways, in two feet of snow.
#183
^ +1

Quote by Blktiger0

Personally, though, I have a similar image of Cath in my head, but I picture him more like this:



I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
#184
I just realized one blantant mistake on my part...I forgot to add cats to the picture, and there are no JJ's spilling out of the vest and the croc's mouth. I kinda imagine that he might have one or two ECC83S's stashed away in his beard, just in case something happens to his jacket. You really can't be too careful.
#185
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
#186


Walking 3 miles in snow? What's snow? I did used to have to ride a pushbike 5 miles in the burning sun - does that qualify?
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#187
Haha wow, figured my part in this thread was done once we surpassed the level of basic components' charcteristics, but wish I'd read on sooner. Funnily enough, I imagine Cathbard to be a bit more like Dave Gilmour (current; not in the 'Dark Side of The Moon' era) in apearance, albeit possibly more battle-hardened and wisened
Hey, look. Sigs are back.
#188
Hey, I'm not that old - Gilmour is 17 years older than me.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#189
Pfft, Paul Hogan is 7 years older than him and you didn't complain about that
Hey, look. Sigs are back.
#190
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#191
Quote by Cathbard


Walking 3 miles in snow? What's snow? I did used to have to ride a pushbike 5 miles in the burning sun - does that qualify?


I suppose that's basically the Aussie version of Ohio, so that qualifies...as long as it was uphill BOTH ways. Not just one way, BOTH ways is the essential part.

It's just one of those things that my grandparents' and parents' generations always pulled. "you think you kids have it bad...back in MY day, we had to walk to school, 3 miles, in 2 feet of snow, uphill BOTH ways!"

For some reason that story always was expected to trump everything. We were on the way to the hospital after I burned my hand by putting it on the top of a coal stove with a nice fire burning in it while wearing wet nylon/cotton gloves, and I hear this story about walking to school and I'm sitting there with 3rd degree burns wondering how this even applied. I mean, I suppose both stories involved both winter and snow as part of the problem, but other than that, I don't understand where the connection was.
#192
We lived in an old water tank in the middle of a rubbish dump and were woken up each morning by having a load of rotten fish dumped on us ............ and so on and so forth.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#193
Quote by Blktiger0
as long as it was uphill BOTH ways. Not just one way, BOTH ways is the essential part.


I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
#194
Quote by Cathbard
We lived in an old water tank in the middle of a rubbish dump and were woken up each morning by having a load of rotten fish dumped on us ............ and so on and so forth.


Yep, you're right on target.

I would ask for ridiculous hunting stories, but you live in Australia...just walking outside trumps most hunting stories from here.

EDIT: Damn! I just realize we jack the living hell out of this thread. I sincerely apologize, Craig! I suppose at least we're achieving the goal of keeping it on the front page!
Last edited by Blktiger0 at Nov 11, 2012,
#196
Quote by ihartfood
howdy

hey bow
punk isn't dead, it's always smelled that way.

"A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem."
-ae
#197
Quote by ihartfood
howdy


I'm guess this means you have a southern accent?

I'm still even jealous of that. The "Boring" remark sounds somewhat offensive on it's own, so allow me to clarify that by saying that it's "boring" because it's the one I hear the most.
#198
This may be offensive... I find southern accents along with their speed of doing thing frustrating. I feel like they are slow. I am not talkin about a Texas or Tennessee accent. I am talking about Virginia and Georgia. They just move slower.

That being said the people are friendlier than anywhere else in the US. Sometimes it's a nice change of pace coming from non stop fast paced California. Just don't try to do anything with any sense of urgency.
Quote by DeathByDestroyr
See, it's important that people clarify when they say "metal", because I pretty much always assume they are a Cannibal Corpse fanboi.
#199
Quote by R45VT
This may be offensive... I find southern accents along with their speed of doing thing frustrating. I feel like they are slow. I am not talkin about a Texas or Tennessee accent. I am talking about Virginia and Georgia. They just move slower.


hey! i'm from VA!





i work all over the country (well, really more on the east coast, but i have been around a bit) and i work with people from all over the country. i used to come to certain conclusions on people from particular areas, but people are tricky and they end up proving my assumptions wrong like every time.

Quote by R45VT
That being said the people are friendlier than anywhere else in the US. Sometimes it's a nice change of pace coming from non stop fast paced California. Just don't try to do anything with any sense of urgency.


from my own personal experience, don't tend to get along with people from CA as easily as i can get along with most other people. there is typically a friction between me and them. not all of the them, i have actually had some good friends from CA but i have had more than my fair share of nasty fallouts too though (i usually don't get nasty with people either).
punk isn't dead, it's always smelled that way.

"A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem."
-ae
#200
I loved all the guys I worked with in CA, but there was probably more at play there than just the cultural differences.
Feel free to call me Kyle.

Quote by ibz_bucket
Just so you know, I read everything you type in a Mike Rowe from Dirty Jobs voice.

Quote by tubetime86
I mean in Kyle's case, it is in the best interest of mankind that he impregnate anything that looks at him funny...