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Glimpsed.AM
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#1
When would be an appropriate time to do this? I'll list an example using the Harmonic Minor and Spanish Phrygian scales

I'm in a death metal band, and I have some riffs written out in Harmonic Minor and a few riffs written out in Phrygian Dominant. I'm tuned to Drop B, so I usually stick with the key of B. So this song I've been writing starts out with a few riffs using the Harmonic Minor scale, so how would I go about transferring over to Phrygian Dominant? The riffs I have written all fit with the overall feeling of the song, but I want to figure out how to bridge them together to get a blend of that Spanish and Middle Eastern sound.

So here are also some things I need clarified:

- The only difference I see is that Phrygian Dominant has a major third and Harmonic Minor has a Minor third, so would that make it easier to switch modes?

- How would context factor in to changing to a different mode?

- Is there some sort of rule or method for changing modes in a song? Like for a certain riff, you would play that Major Third instead of the Minor Third to switch?


Thanks for any input!


EDIT: Also, I apologize if there was already another thread on this matter. I wasn't sure if my situation would be any different since the two scales only have a 1 note difference.
Last edited by Glimpsed.AM at Nov 2, 2012,
z4twenny
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#2
Learn actual theory and all will become clear?

I see so many questionable statements I don't really know where to begin. Let's start with "do you know how to build chords?"
Xter
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#3
I'm going to make a general statement but judging by your tuning and genre, you are not truely using modes.

Second, if you want to "bridge" them together. Play the chord that is mostly harmonic with the notes being played. That's the basic way of doing it.

If you know how modes work, in a jazz context (The best way I can refer to it, I'm not a Jazz guitarist, nor heavily in Jazz so this might not be 100% correct), If you are playing in the key of B, you'd use B Phygrian Dominant, over the correct chord. Analyze the intervals in B Phygrian Dominant, and you'll know what chord to use. This will properly be fairly easy though since you are probably using power chords. If you can't do it that way, treat the notes in Phygrian Dominant that are not related to the B major as if they were just accidentals and don't hang on them. Simple yes? Now wait for a more intelligent response from Aeolianwolf for the politically correct way to do it.
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#4
Quote by z4twenny
Learn actual theory and all will become clear?


</thread>

you have a lot of flaws in your understanding of theory, TS, and they're such that even if we were to answer your questions, you wouldn't really have the fundamental requisites to understand and make sense of it.

if you don't want to be bothered doing that, then forget knowing theory, forget this "phrygian dominant" stuff, and just guess-and-check until your ear becomes accustomed to the sounds.
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Captaincranky
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#5
There isn't that much difference between the harmonic minor scale, and the Phrygian dominant.

That said, you do have to observe the b2nd, which gives Phrygian its flavor.

In its basic state, Phrygian dominant harmonizes by way of the"Aldalusian cadence", or I, II, III, iv. Much different resolutions from V7, i, in the minor keys.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andalusian_cadence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamenco_mode Phrygian dominant

And a list of pop songs in the Andalusian cadence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andalusian_cadence
Xter
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#6
Quote by AeolianWolf
</thread>

you have a lot of flaws in your understanding of theory, TS, and they're such that even if we were to answer your questions, you wouldn't really have the fundamental requisites to understand and make sense of it.

if you don't want to be bothered doing that, then forget knowing theory, forget this "phrygian dominant" stuff, and just guess-and-check until your ear becomes accustomed to the sounds.


Lmao. Well TS, disregard my last statement. It seems AeolianWolf isn't going to give you an answer, but make you figure it out yourself by learning theory. I don't blame him
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z4twenny
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#7
Quote by AeolianWolf

if you don't want to be bothered doing that, then forget knowing theory, forget this "phrygian dominant" stuff, and just guess-and-check until your ear becomes accustomed to the sounds.

really this, we're not saying this to dissuade you just to make a point that somewhere along the way you got lost and didn't realize it. i'd recommend getting music theory for dummies (i keep a copy around at all times for reference) its pretty painless and if you do the exercises you can really start learning your stuff.

the smart-ass side of me would tell you to bridge the 2 with a riff that ends on F#
Glimpsed.AM
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#8
Quote by z4twenny
really this, we're not saying this to dissuade you just to make a point that somewhere along the way you got lost and didn't realize it. i'd recommend getting music theory for dummies (i keep a copy around at all times for reference) its pretty painless and if you do the exercises you can really start learning your stuff.

the smart-ass side of me would tell you to bridge the 2 with a riff that ends on F#


I appreciate all the replies, and I already know that my knowledge of theory has a lot of flaws, because I've only started learning theory recently. I've noticed that I started a habit of asking questions regarding things that are too advanced for my understanding, simply because of curiosity. I figured I'd ask anyway though, because maybe when I got around to learning more advanced stuff, that I would be able to recall this later on and things would become a bit more clear.
Last edited by Glimpsed.AM at Nov 2, 2012,
Xter
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#9
Quote by Glimpsed.AM
I appreciate all the replies, and I already know that my knowledge of theory has a lot of flaws, because I've only started learning theory recently. I've noticed that I started a habit of asking questions regarding things that are too advanced for my understanding, simply because of curiosity. I figured I'd ask anyway though, because maybe when I got around to learning more advanced stuff, that I would be able to recall this later on.


Don't even worry about the "advanced" stuff yet. You'll only confuse yourself. Master your basics first. If you don't have a solid foundation, later it'll collaspe. Just like building a skyscrapper without a proper foundation.
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lightdark
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#10
Well I'd help you out, but I don't know either, and since I really only use one mode, the aeolian mode(or natural minor scale). I would like to know how much theory some of you know though, that is actually used in popular rock, (no not pop, I mean stuff like rock you like a hurricane, well known rock songs). And tell me, how much of it actually sounds good?
Xter
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#11
Quote by lightdark
Well I'd help you out, but I don't know either, and since I really only use one mode, the aeolian mode(or natural minor scale). I would like to know how much theory some of you know though, that is actually used in popular rock, (no not pop, I mean stuff like rock you like a hurricane, well known rock songs). And tell me, how much of it actually sounds good?


You are not using the Aeolian mode, you're using just a Natural Minor Scale.

In the context of Pop. Rock, it isn't that challenging theory wise. Just power chords and major and minor scales basically. The occasional accidental here and there.

You need to build on your theory skills first. It sounds like you don't know any basics. You should build a solid foundation first too, before continuing.
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lightdark
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#12
Quote by Xter
You are not using the Aeolian mode, you're using just a Natural Minor Scale.

In the context of Pop. Rock, it isn't that challenging theory wise. Just power chords and major and minor scales basically. The occasional accidental here and there.

You need to build on your theory skills first. It sounds like you don't know any basics. You should build a solid foundation first too, before continuing.



So your saying that if I am playing a chord progression that involves A7sus4b6 That it's not in A natural minor, ( yes I do know that for it to be a true Aeolian mode the key would have to be c major.) But what I'm trying to say is that if your just using the same notes but resolving to the root note which would be C( if we were in the key of c) why complicate things and just say I'm playing in this form of the C major scale hmm?

And read the parentheses, cause I don't think you did last time.
Last edited by lightdark at Nov 2, 2012,
Xter
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#13
Quote by lightdark
So your saying that if I am playing a chord progression that involves A7sus4b6 That it's not in A natural minor, ( yes I do know that for it to be a true Aeolian mode the key would have to be c major.) But what I'm trying to say is that if your just using the same notes but resolving to the root note which would be C( if we were in the key of c) why complicate things and just say I'm playing in this form of the C major scale hmm?

And read the parentheses, cause I don't think you did last time.


You said well known rock songs like rock you like a hurricane. That is the basics of that song pretty much. I'm not looking it up, nor am I going to bother. I heard it before and it's just power chords basically.

There's two things, using modes in the classical concept (long dead) and using modes in a Jazz context. If you play a C Aeolian Scale while over that chord (A7sus4b6), you're using modes in a Jazz concept. It's not really modal, but in today's context, it is, but only over that chord. And you're complicating. Can you make a vamp. for C Aeolian? Do this and you'll have proven you know your theory. Besides that, if you wank off with a C Aeolian scale over a chord progression, it's not modal. It's more easily defined as using accidentals.

When you understand the harmony's function compared to the melody, you'll understand what modes are and what they're used for. Jazz is the best example of using this context, not only do you have to be technically excellent, but also know your theory to a dime.
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#14
well i can't say i didn't know this was coming

doesn't numb the pain, though
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lightdark
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#15
Okay, a complete modal vamp, here you go. We'll start out with a C7add6 leading into an A7sus4 going to E7sus4 back into the C7add6. hows that for a modal vamp. I've made other modal vamps to, ones that I'd like to put on here to listen to, but as of yet, I don't have a program that will allow me to change the files into and mp3 file.(no, no Itunes for me.)
Last edited by lightdark at Nov 2, 2012,
Xter
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#16
Quote by Hail
well i can't say i didn't know this was coming

doesn't numb the pain, though


I know, hold it there. Soon the world will be rid of this modal stuff.

Whenever that new system is invented...

Quote by lightdark
Okay, a complete modal vamp, here you go. We'll start out with a C7add6 leading into an A7sus4 going to E7sus4 back into the C7add6. hows that for a modal vamp.


Congrats. You know your theory apperantely. Now why are you asking about applying Theory to Pop. Rock song like "Rock you like a Hurricane"?
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Last edited by Xter at Nov 2, 2012,
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#17
Quote by Xter
I know, hold it there. Soon the world will be rid of this modal stuff.

Whenever that new system is invented...


why can't we have people bitching about writing hot metal licks with serialism

at least it'd be something new
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#18
Quote by lightdark
Okay, a complete modal vamp, here you go. We'll start out with a C7add6 leading into an A7sus4 going to E7sus4 back into the C7add6. hows that for a modal vamp. I've made other modal vamps to, ones that I'd like to put on here to listen to, but as of yet, I don't have a program that will allow me to change the files into and mp3 file.(no, no Itunes for me.)

so which mode is

A B C C# D E F G G#

?

or are you assuming a different mode over each chord?
Last edited by z4twenny at Nov 2, 2012,
Xter
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#19
Quote by Hail
why can't we have people bitching about writing hot metal licks with serialism

at least it'd be something new


Because people like the word "Modes". It sounds powerful, it's plural so it sounds like many, and people make it seem like the alpha male of music.

They only bitch about it because they want to seem like many alpha males combined into one.

...It's just a gimmick folks...
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#20
Quote by Xter
. Besides that, if you wank off with a C Aeolian scale over a chord progression, it's not modal. It's more easily defined as using accidentals. .



So have you tried that modal progression I've made, I believe an apology is in order.(for the wanking comment.)
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#21
Quote by Xter


...It's just a gimmick folks...

in the context that most guitarists view it, it's just playing note patterns relative to the chord being played, like CST.
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#22
Quote by lightdark
So have you tried that modal progression I've made, I believe an apology is in order.(for the wanking comment.)


Nope, and not going to bother.

Negative on that apology. You said chord progression. For all I know you could of meant a simple I-IV-V in Db major. You can't be vague when you have an agruement. It has to be clear, concise, accurate, and right. Vague can be interpetted anyway, which means it's none of what I said about an agruement.

Quote by z4twenny
in the context that most guitarists view it, it's just playing note patterns relative to the chord being played, like CST.


Indeed it is sir.

Quote by lightdark

(Is that better xter?) And to that point I did say Modal progression not chord. It's an ambiguous key because A Aeolian and C Ionian are the same just resolved to a different note , And in this case both notes could be resolved to......


No, you really didn't say modal. I'm going to drop this pointless agruement now.
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Last edited by Xter at Nov 2, 2012,
lightdark
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#23
Quote by z4twenny
so which mode is

A B C C# D E F G G#

?

or are you assuming a different mode over each chord?


IT could be in either C Ionian or A Aeolian, but considering it resolves back to a C7add6 I'm going to say C Ionian( still, either would work considering the C7add6 has an A in it.)

(Is that better xter?) And to that point I did say Modal progression not chord. It's an ambiguous key because A Aeolian and C Ionian are the same just resolved to a different note , And in this case both notes could be resolved to......
Last edited by lightdark at Nov 2, 2012,
lightdark
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#24
Quote by Xter
Nope, and not going to bother.

Negative on that apology. You said chord progression. For all I know you could of meant a simple I-IV-V in Db major. You can't be vague when you have an agruement. It has to be clear, concise, accurate, and right. Vague can be interpetted anyway, which means it's none of what I said about an agruement.


Indeed it is sir.


No, you really didn't say modal. I'm going to drop this pointless agruement now.

umm Yeah I kinda did say Modal Look back the comment you were referring to. And no, it ain't pointless. you just think it's pointless cause I'm right.

Look at the comment you QUOTED FROM ME. I Did say modal. And I did tell you the specific chords. Look on the previous page, or would you further like me to prove that I'm right?
Last edited by lightdark at Nov 2, 2012,
z4twenny
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#25
^ i went full retard for a moment and thought add instead of sus, so yeah it sounds pretty decent but the E doesn't resolve very solidly back to C, at least to my ears. that being said actual "classical" modal music resolves very strongly back to the root and isn't so tonically ambiguous.
Last edited by z4twenny at Nov 2, 2012,
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#26
you realize the word "progression" in itself is completely in contrast to the point of modes. there's no cadence, there's no resolution, there's no "fulfillment" where it all makes sense.

it's essentially such a vague grouping of notes that the tonic is unstable enough for the melody to reciprocate incredibly primitive tendencies that became obsolete with the introduction of tonal music.
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#27
Quote by Hail
you realize the word "progression" in itself is completely in contrast to the point of modes. there's no cadence, there's no resolution, there's no "fulfillment" where it all makes sense.

it's essentially such a vague grouping of notes that the tonic is unstable enough for the melody to reciprocate incredibly primitive tendencies that became obsolete with the introduction of tonal music.



You sir, win.
z4twenny
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#28
^ i'd say in the context of chord vamps theres resolution, or more so a lack of straying from the root. i guess i'd describe it easiest as being that whatever chord/s aren't the root imply motion back to the root.
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#29
But would that specific progression be considered modal or not? I guess in other words have I proved myself to know what I'm talking about at least more so than yall thought before?
Last edited by lightdark at Nov 2, 2012,
chronowarp
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#30
The distinction between a vamp and a progression is that a progression implies a functional sequence of chords, as a sum V-I. In a progressing from tonic to dominant back to tonic.

A vamp is just a repeated set of chords, that don't need to be and aren't necessarily functional, but rather, outline a tonality as a sum of all their parts.
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#31
Quote by lightdark
But would that specific progression be considered modal or not? I guess in other words have I proved myself to know what I'm talking about at least more so than yall thought before?


Looking at your chords I'd be tempted to say that it's in the key of A major. I'll play them and confirm. Which mode do you think it's in?
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lightdark
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#32
Actually since it has a C7add6 in it It can't be in A major sorry. It can either be A Aeolian or C Ionian.
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#34
Quote by lightdark
Actually since it has a C7add6 in it It can't be in A major sorry.


you're thinking in the A major scale, but not in the key of A major. any note can be in any key provided the progression resolves. i think this is a big part of where you're getting mixed up - you can use more than 7 notes in any given setting.

the notes the chords use fitting a scale is a good rule of thumb early on, but it is important to remember that a key and a scale are two very different things and it's important to understand that a key functions pragmatically as long as there's resolution.

It can either be A Aeolian or C Ionian.


modality is an obsolete way of analyzing something. you can teeter on the edge of being able to explain mixolydian/dorian/lydian/phrygian as modal (but even then it's typically only going to limit you artistically, whether you manage to make it modal or not), but unless you're talking gregorian hymns specifically using the modal system prior to tonality, you won't get by on aeolian and ionian because by definition they'll be major or minor because they're based around the tonic.

again, you need to remember that scales are different as well as inferior to keys when analyzing or writing a piece. your understanding of modality is kind of shoving square blocks into triangle holes because you were introduced incorrectly to what mode actually are - caveman's tonality.

you wouldn't go to a construction site with a chisel and some rocks when there are methods in place that already make bricks, and makes them faster, cleaner, and cheaper. if you want to get into modes, most of the material will be exclusively vocal music and while perfectly valid to study, it doesn't really apply to anything anyone will want to listen to in this day and age out of nostalgia factor, and they'll definitely get bored hearing it on a guitar.
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#36
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This thread sucks.


shut up
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#38
Quote by lightdark
Actually since it has a C7add6 in it It can't be in A major sorry. It can either be A Aeolian or C Ionian.


Actually it can, in keys you can play any note you want or any chord you want, unlike modes where they are much harder to maintain. In fact since it has a C7add6 it could never be in either of the modes you list.
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#39
Quote by lightdark
So your saying that if I am playing a chord progression that involves A7sus4b6 That it's not in A natural minor, ( yes I do know that for it to be a true Aeolian mode the key would have to be c major.) But what I'm trying to say is that if your just using the same notes but resolving to the root note which would be C( if we were in the key of c) why complicate things and just say I'm playing in this form of the C major scale hmm?


...what the **** did i just read?

Quote by lightdark
yes I do know that for it to be a true Aeolian mode the key would have to be c major


i'm not even going to tell you that you don't know modes. i'm just going to suggest that you think about all the things that are completely wrong with this statement.

Quote by lightdark
Okay, a complete modal vamp, here you go. We'll start out with a C7add6 leading into an A7sus4 going to E7sus4 back into the C7add6. hows that for a modal vamp. I've made other modal vamps to, ones that I'd like to put on here to listen to, but as of yet, I don't have a program that will allow me to change the files into and mp3 file.(no, no Itunes for me.)


...you need to learn (among other things) chord nomenclature. C7add6 looks like something rebecca black spit up. let's assume it really was a C13 - how would you define it as being in "C ionian" or "A aeolian"? there's a Bb in there.

Quote by lightdark
Actually since it has a C7add6 in it It can't be in A major sorry. It can either be A Aeolian or C Ionian.


Bb aside...

...wat

for your sake, i suggest abandoning the convoluted system of analysis you're using now and learn theory from the ground up. trust me, it'll be of great benefit to you.

don't worry, though, i'm not going to come after you if you don't. i'm just saying these things to help you - it's all a matter of whether you want to help yourself.

that aside, this thread sucks.
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#40
Quote by AeolianWolf
...what the **** did i just read?


i'm not even going to tell you that you don't know modes. i'm just going to suggest that you think about all the things that are completely wrong with this statement.


...you need to learn (among other things) chord nomenclature. C7add6 looks like something rebecca black spit up. let's assume it really was a C13 - how would you define it as being in "C ionian" or "A aeolian"? there's a Bb in there.


Bb aside...

for your sake, i suggest abandoning the convoluted system of analysis you're using now and learn theory from the ground up. trust me, it'll be of great benefit to you.

don't worry, though, i'm not going to come after you if you don't. i'm just saying these things to help you - it's all a matter of whether you want to help yourself.

that aside, this thread sucks.



I now realized I was playing a different modal progression than I wrote.... yes I'm sorry. The c chord I'm playing is Csus2add6...... YEah I know wrong time to say that I was wrong. didn't realize it until I saw the whole Bb thing.... Sorry...
Last edited by lightdark at Nov 3, 2012,
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