Page 4 of 7
#121
Quote by MatrixClaw
I'm sorry, but you are flat out wrong.

While this may be true for some modelers, the problem here isn't the modeler's fault, it's your fault for not knowing how to use them. You wouldn't expect an electric car to work the same as a gas powered car, so stop trying to use it the same. Modelers have all the EQs, compressors, etc. in them for a reason, it's not their fault that you don't know how to work them. I'm willing to bet your complete distaste of modelers is based off the fact that you're using the shitty stock cabinet impulses in whatever you've used.
Note I was only referring to software, not all modelers. Poulin in particular. Guitarhacker Impulses that everyone recommended.

Quote by MatrixClaw
That being said - Some modelers will never be the same as the real deal, but when you're paying like 1/60th the price of all the amps in it... do you really expect it to?
Right. But why go with the lower quality option to have "more", when I'd only use about 4-5 of those amp models total (SLO model, a few clean Fenders, and possibly a Mesa Mark model for its lead tone), unless I'm playing around or recording others? I'd rather have one decently versatile amp (in this case, my JCA or a Soldano Hot Rod later on) that does its distinct sound absolutely perfect, rather than a box that replicates 40 at 85% accuracy.

Quote by MatrixClaw
As far as dynamics go - You've already stated you haven't tried an Axe-FX or a Kemper, so completely generalizing modelers as a whole is completely unfair. Both of the top end modelers react just as well to picking dynamics, volume pots, guitar pickups and woods, as any tube amp out there, some models even better than the real thing.

You say that modelers suck for low/mid gain, whereas I would argue the complete opposite. While high gain modeling from the Axe-FX always sounded like digital modeling to me, the low and mid gain tones were so convincing that, if I were playing those styles, I would never think about touching a real tube amp again.
Well, in a way I do play with high gain, in a sense. While I certainly use less than the norm (never bring it past 5 on my amp), it would still be classified as a "high gain tone".

And I'm sorry but I just honestly don't understand how that can possibly work. Alternating picking dynamics change the amounts of stress frequently on the preamp tubes, as we're dealing with analog signals and different clipping methods. As for wood: don't woods differ due to the different amount of overtones in each type (I had to do a report on this last year).

I have to ask, how does even the most expensive digital modeler pull this off/capture all of this? Aside from simulation? I just don't see any of this happening outside a pure analog signal in my mind.

Quote by MatrixClaw
The biggest problem people like you have with modeling isn't that it sounds bad (because, let's face it, if the tone is properly tweaked, you can have your preferences, but if you tell me that the tone is bad, you're just talking out your ass), it's that people are expecting it to sound exactly like the real thing. That's just silly. You could put two JCM800s side by side next to each other, and neither one will sound exactly the same, same goes with every other amp and guitar ever made. Once you get past the fact that it might not sound precisely like what your real amp sounds like, and take it for what it is, a great sounding unit that takes a lot characteristics from those amps, then you'll truly appreciate it. If you want a certain amp's tone, then buy the ****ing amp and stop complaining about your $200 amp software that can't reproduce the sound.
Already done.

I just need to find a method that my hypothetical intolerant neighbor, who may also wield guns, doesn't get bothered by it. And it only.

Quote by MatrixClaw
Your idea of using a iso cab is without a doubt, going to give you worse results than a good modeler would. End of story.

People think iso cabs are the end-all-be-all for silent recording, when in fact, they produce a tiny, boxy sound, that wouldn't be any better than micing the amp at super low volumes.
Now I don't entirely get this. I can understand if it's an extremely packed 1x12, but the Randall cab has almost the same level of square length of a standard Mesa 212, and the speaker (a V30 no less) is firing against sound absorbing foam. How is it any different than running a Mesa 2x12 mic'd with an SM57 facing a wall a few pillows sitting against it (unless I shouldn't be doing that either)?

Quote by MatrixClaw
Honestly, I find it funny that you don't want to invest in digital amp modeling, but you're fine with investing a ton of money in a digital speaker simulator/IR loader (Two-Notes Torpedo), which is a "modeler" for the most important part in a modeling amp's signal chain (the part that actually gives it the dynamics of a real amp), the power amp/cabinet response. If that's what you want to do, just run a cable from the preamp out/effects send of your amp, into your interface and load an IR on it in your DAW... There, just saved you $1000.
I've looked into that box more and I've decided that it is not what I want. I can easily see it sounding just as digital as any modeler.

I actually tried doing the send to line out and recording with impulses once, but it wasn't as good as I expected it to be. A good portion of it could be attributed to the fact that Jet City amps' effects loops are the same as Soldano's, which are known for being aggravating (and I think it's even in the worst place too; I recall hearing somewhere it was even placed before the EQ in the chain?).
#122
You're too stubborn for your own good.

It's like a child covering his ears and saying "NONONONO, CAN'T HEAR YOU, LALALALALA".
Quote by SimplyBen
That's the advantage of being such a distance from Yianni. I can continue to live my life without fear of stumbling upon his dark terror.


Quote by Toppscore
NakedInTheRain aka "Naked with shriveled pencil sized bacon In The Rain"
#123
Quote by Eppicurt
You're too stubborn for your own good.

It's like a child covering his ears and saying "NONONONO, CAN'T HEAR YOU, LALALALALA".


Can't take you seriously with that god damn avatar. Really: I'm reading everything you say in Jake's voice.
#124
Quote by RStrat
Can't take you seriously with that god damn avatar. Really: I'm reading everything you say in Jake's voice.



Adventure Time.
Quote by SimplyBen
That's the advantage of being such a distance from Yianni. I can continue to live my life without fear of stumbling upon his dark terror.


Quote by Toppscore
NakedInTheRain aka "Naked with shriveled pencil sized bacon In The Rain"
#125
Quote by Eppicurt


Adventure Time.


Lol quick reply.
But yeah, Adventure Time (second only to Regular Show)
Last edited by RStrat at Nov 7, 2012,
#126
Quote by Eppicurt


Adventure Time.

Ibanez Prestige RG852MPB
Ibanez Prestige RG652KFX
ESP E-II M-1
LTD AW-7
Schecter Loomis NT
EVH 5150 III 50
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#127
Is there an Adventure Time thread? We need one.

On topic, Kemper.
Last edited by RStrat at Nov 7, 2012,
#128
Quote by Ian_the_fox

And I'm sorry but I just honestly don't understand how that can possibly work. Alternating picking dynamics change the amounts of stress frequently on the preamp tubes, as we're dealing with analog signals and different clipping methods. As for wood: don't woods differ due to the different amount of overtones in each type (I had to do a report on this last year).

I have to ask, how does even the most expensive digital modeler pull this off/capture all of this? Aside from simulation? I just don't see any of this happening outside a pure analog signal in my mind.


I'd first try the iso cab; you could even look into making your own for your need with a bit of research.

If that doesn't do it for you, hire a rehearsal space to record for a couple of days or get a Kemper. They may be modellers, but you'd struggle to tell a difference and even less of one in a mix on record or live. Hell, even bouncing to WAV or CD truncates the audio signal since it's represented as a series of steps and is converted into a 'smooth' wave signal.


Not the topic of how a modeller tries to capture all this and replicate an amp... Kemper, Axe-FX, Eleven and the Pods do not try to replicate the circuitry or signal path of the amplifier at all. They do not use hardware to create clipping distortion like a solid state amp. If you've ever seen the Kemper profiling amp at work, it basically takes a fingerprint of that amp's frequency response that it's modelling. So it will basically run through the full spectrum of frequencies that go through your rig and come up with a frequency response function. This function takes your guitar's input which is translated into the output waveform; the real amp can be represented as a control system and transfer function in essence, and a good model in theory can be as close to a real amp as a CD or even better a Super Audio CD is to the live recording. That's just my dumbed down interpretation of auto control, but there's likely a whole lot more going on.

About the response to picking dynamics... the True-Z inputs that respond to picking dynamics are explained here http://community.avid.com/blogs/avid/archive/2010/04/06/the-truth-about-true-z.aspx

edit: with the Kemper, you could rent a rehearsal space for a few hours, dial in the tone you want on your amps, profile your own amp and then use the profile to record at home? It's also easier to manage live than multi amps and easier to mix. Plus there's the bonus of being able to download tons of other profiles.
Last edited by baumaxx1 at Nov 7, 2012,
#129
Quote by RStrat
Is there an Adventure Time thread? We need one.

On topic, Kemper.

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?p=30574560#post30574560

There is now.
Quote by SimplyBen
That's the advantage of being such a distance from Yianni. I can continue to live my life without fear of stumbling upon his dark terror.


Quote by Toppscore
NakedInTheRain aka "Naked with shriveled pencil sized bacon In The Rain"
#131
Yes.

There was already an Adventure Time thread.
Quote by SimplyBen
That's the advantage of being such a distance from Yianni. I can continue to live my life without fear of stumbling upon his dark terror.


Quote by Toppscore
NakedInTheRain aka "Naked with shriveled pencil sized bacon In The Rain"
#133
Quote by MatrixClaw
I'm sorry, but you are flat out wrong.

While this may be true for some modelers, the problem here isn't the modeler's fault, it's your fault for not knowing how to use them. You wouldn't expect an electric car to work the same as a gas powered car, so stop trying to use it the same. Modelers have all the EQs, compressors, etc. in them for a reason, it's not their fault that you don't know how to work them. I'm willing to bet your complete distaste of modelers is based off the fact that you're using the shitty stock cabinet impulses in whatever you've used.

That being said - Some modelers will never be the same as the real deal, but when you're paying like 1/60th the price of all the amps in it... do you really expect it to?

As far as dynamics go - You've already stated you haven't tried an Axe-FX or a Kemper, so completely generalizing modelers as a whole is completely unfair. Both of the top end modelers react just as well to picking dynamics, volume pots, guitar pickups and woods, as any tube amp out there, some models even better than the real thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7oBL9pKn54&sns=em
#135
Quote by terribleguitar


that phenomenon is a litmus for good or bad modelers. the better and newer ones are showing quite a bit more dynamics with guitars and volume knobs.
punk isn't dead, it's always smelled that way.

"A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem."
-ae
#136
Quote by Ian_the_fox

I've looked into that box more and I've decided that it is not what I want. I can easily see it sounding just as digital as any modeler.

I actually tried doing the send to line out and recording with impulses once, but it wasn't as good as I expected it to be. A good portion of it could be attributed to the fact that Jet City amps' effects loops are the same as Soldano's, which are known for being aggravating (and I think it's even in the worst place too; I recall hearing somewhere it was even placed before the EQ in the chain?).


That is not the same. The two notes takes the signal AFTER the poweramp. You are missing the transformer being affected by a load.

Good grief, all this argument over modelers. I understand you don't want a modeler, but I really think you should spend some time with the top end ones. I understand if you can pick it out in a mix or something, or if it doesn't sound the same as a roaring tube amp, but you are asking for a solution that is not out there, at least in your price range! Rent a room to record in!

Iso Boxes are cool, but they tend to sound pretty boxy, no pun intended. Probably just as bad as what you don't like about modelers.

Record dry tracks with a modeler or whatever so you can play well enough. Take that dry track, run it out into the amp when you get to the rented space, and voila! Perfect take through your amp.

Sometimes people listen to too much guitar, and not enough music!

I am not contributing to the argument of modelers vs tube amps, nor Axe Vs. Kemper (I have both). Just offering options, but sometimes, what you WANT to hear is different from what you NEED to hear.
Peavey 5150
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#137
Quote by Reincaster
Sometimes people listen to too much guitar, and not enough music!


+1

If he is this anal and belligerent about the actual music he wants to record, it should be the best ****ing album/EP/song/whatever ever released.

I suspect it probably won't be, but hey, at least he could detail the many days spent getting the guitar parts utterly perfectly recorded in a paper thin box room, that'd be cool on the sleeve notes...
#138
Quote by Offworld92
It honestly doesn't matter *that* much in the studio. If you're going to be burying guitar tracks in a grave along with bass, drums and vocals, the tone becomes less and less important as the mix becomes less about the guitar sound and more about the sound of the mix. There's so much else going on sonically that the tiny difference between a good modeler and a tube amp become almost non-consequential.

The stage is where tube amps rule supreme.

+99999999999
#139
This thread is actually hilarious I really can't believe TS is so blindly stubborn.
Hey, look. Sigs are back.
#140
Might I just say something before this thread gets catted (which seems inevitable), not all isocabs are created equal. Saying "isocabs sound boxy" is like saying "modellers sound digital." They aren't all the same. Some isocabs are friggin huge and have all sorts of trick baffling inside them. They are as good as you are prepared to make them.
Gilchrist custom
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Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
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Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#141
Quote by Cathbard
Might I just say something before this thread gets catted (which seems inevitable), not all isocabs are created equal. Saying "isocabs sound boxy" is like saying "modellers sound digital." They aren't all the same. Some isocabs are friggin huge and have all sorts of trick baffling inside them. They are as good as you are prepared to make them.


Very true. But what is the cost for such an isocab? I'm actually curious.

My statement was about iso cabs that retail for less than $1500 USD.
Peavey 5150
Mesa Mark IV
Mesa Single Rectifier (Series 1)
Fender Custom Shop Tonemaster
Roland Microcube

-Whitebox OS 1x12
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Digidesign Eleven RackAxe Fx Ultra
#142
No idea. Not the sort of thing I'd ever buy. There are some pretty good designs out there on the net though. That's the way I'd go, make it myself.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#143
If you were to build an isobox that truly worked well, you'd have to invest a decent amount of cash on materials alone, and it would be large and weigh a ton. The main reason many people place a 1x12 in them, is because of the sheer density and size of material you need to truly soundproof a 4x12 raging on high output from a 100W all-valve head.

Also, it's worth pointing out that if you wanted to accurately recreate the same kind of environment for the speaker to work in, you'd need some sort of system to regulate the temperature without adding too much noise; keep the air pressure similar (might sound crazy, but if you seal the box completely, your speaker is going to meet a lot more resistance now because it can't displace all the air as easily); and those two alone create a rather different environment to an open room, which already begins to defeat the object of building the thing in the first place.

There's plenty of other factors, but the main issues are those of effective soundproofing meets the physics of a loudspeaker, and unfortunately a lot of the principles clash.
Hey, look. Sigs are back.
#144
I suggest sealing every inch of the room so it is completely airtight, and making sure you're on the inside.

What I'm interested in knowing is why there's such a big fuss over a hypothetical situation? You're worrying about a bothering a neighbor who doesn't exist, and by the looks of things you want something for nothing in that you want the exact same tone as you get with your current setup, but you refuse to use that setup as well as the closest you'll ever get. All the while acting like one of those people who can "hear the difference between .WAV and .FLAC" and notices improvements on digital signals with 'better quality' cables.
#145
rent a storage locker, and set up and record there. My uncles band did it for years
#147
Quote by Cathbard
Quote by Raijouta
Unless its electronic drums.

BURN THE WITCH!!!!!
#148
ISO boxes are awful. They sound dead and boxy. I've had better luck recording at super quiet volumes then I ever did with an Isocab.

A load box and impulses are a *slightly* better option but I've found that it can take a lot of fiddling to get the sound just right, and more often than not it causes more of a headache than it's worth.

If your amp sounds good at low volumes, record at low volumes. Your neighbor can complain all he wants, but as long as you follow your citys noise restriction laws there's really nothing he can do except move or invest in some really good earplugs.

Modelers.

Dynamics... I present you with:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUbQeuWodzM&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeimabZUUp8

Yeah... Not dynamic or responsive at all...

Finally. Silent recording is always a headache. Whether you use a real amp or digital modeler you're going to lose a certain degree of your sound simply because when you play guitar live through an amp the sound hits the guitar and causes it to resonate adding sustain and depth to the sound... Remove that room sound and you lose a good portion of the sound with it.
#149
Quote by gregs1020
No cats yet?


the first cats were on page 5, shortly before the Adventure Time hijacking on page 7.
punk isn't dead, it's always smelled that way.

"A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem."
-ae
#150
^^Holy crap, that guy is awful. Let me bluesface and hit random notes. Please kill me now.
I don't give a shit if you listen to me or not
#151
wow, that is pretty bad. he lays music for soundtracks of cop drama shows based in beach towns. he's really into what he is doing though, he wants to give the impression that every note counts.
punk isn't dead, it's always smelled that way.

"A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem."
-ae
#152
Quote by gumbilicious
wow, that is pretty bad. he lays music for soundtracks of cop drama shows based in beach towns. he's really into what he is doing though, he wants to give the impression that every note counts.


Holy crap, that is the exact thought I had. "Is this a cover of the Law and Order soundtrack?"

sweet jesus it exists......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qukj5MjLA3c
I don't give a shit if you listen to me or not
Last edited by Kevin Saale at Nov 8, 2012,
#153
in my minds eye, the cast looked just like this



that song would be when they're creeping on the boat looking for evidence without a warrant.
punk isn't dead, it's always smelled that way.

"A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem."
-ae
#155
Quote by Kevin Saale
And to complete the cycle:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RtOu2usF5I



I laughed way harder at that than I should have.
Quote by SimplyBen
That's the advantage of being such a distance from Yianni. I can continue to live my life without fear of stumbling upon his dark terror.


Quote by Toppscore
NakedInTheRain aka "Naked with shriveled pencil sized bacon In The Rain"
#157
2011 Gibson Honeyburst LP Trad. w/ SD Whole Lotta Humbuckers
2014 Gibson Ocean Water Standard Plus
Marshall Haze 15W Head/Cab
Hughes & Kettner Tubemeister 5
#158
Quote by SimplyBen
That's the advantage of being such a distance from Yianni. I can continue to live my life without fear of stumbling upon his dark terror.


Quote by Toppscore
NakedInTheRain aka "Naked with shriveled pencil sized bacon In The Rain"
#159
Quote by Kevin Saale
^^Holy crap, that guy is awful. Let me bluesface and hit random notes. Please kill me now.


That's the reaction one gets when playing with awesome tone. It's lots of fun.
Peavey 5150
Mesa Mark IV
Mesa Single Rectifier (Series 1)
Fender Custom Shop Tonemaster
Roland Microcube

-Whitebox OS 1x12
-Port City OS 1x12

Digidesign Eleven RackAxe Fx Ultra
#160
The best isocab is called an isolation booth. It's an isocab that's big enough to sit in there yourself. It's all about size really. If you build an isocab big enough it's simply called a room. And if it's big enough to sit in there the guitar strings can interact with the speakers.
That's the ticket really - soundproof a room. If you can't do that buy a modeller.

And now it's cat time.

Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band