goldfinger69
Soul Throw
Join date: Jan 2009
623 IQ
#1
I'm not a much of a theory guy so I need someone to clean this up...

This Minor Chord Progression 1-4-7-3-5 (an example Am - Dm - G - C - Em)
is pretty popular i think.

So .... I've heard a song a few days ago and it was using that chord progression but ... full of 7ths ...It blew my mind ... (Am - Dm7 - G7 - C - E7) ... such a nice weird feeling with the inclusion of 7ths...

Here's the song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUsgNsEDEao

Please someone who can break down this for me...

Can I get any popular chord progression and add 7ths ..??

For example where do we add 7ths on this major hit-chord-progression 1-3-6-4 (C-Em-Am-F) ?? I tried to add on Em7 ... sounds weird ... maybe cause is a major Key instead of Minor?

Thank you
mdc
UG's Mr Chord Man
Join date: Feb 2008
722 IQ
#4
1st. Did you transcribe it yourself, or did you get the progression from some other source other than your own ears?
Last edited by mdc at Nov 9, 2012,
mdc
UG's Mr Chord Man
Join date: Feb 2008
722 IQ
#5
I do apologize, I read your first post far too quickly.

However, you should still do some further study as I suggested to understand harmonic function.
goldfinger69
Soul Throw
Join date: Jan 2009
623 IQ
#6
Quote by mdc
1st. Did you tranbscribe it yourself, or did you get the progression from some other source other than your own ears?




I found the chords and it was with Em (not E) ...Also Am Chord Progression has Em and not E in there ...
goldfinger69
Soul Throw
Join date: Jan 2009
623 IQ
#7
Quote by mdc
I do apologize, I read your first post far too quickly.

However, you should still do some further study as I suggested to understand harmonic function.


Oh no probs... I try to keep playin for fun and not really study music ... 7ths are cool addition .. i just need some easy answers like.. how we add them in a chord progression ... I guess i just add and if they sound right i keep them in my songs :P or steal ready-made chord progressions like a boss!
Last edited by goldfinger69 at Nov 9, 2012,
mattrusso
Registered User
Join date: Jul 2012
615 IQ
#8
Just take the key you're in and add the diatonic 7th. So for example, in C major the diatonic 7th chords are Cmaj7, D-7, E-7, Fmaj7, G7, A-7, and B-7b5. Obviously, you can go outside diatonic chords, but if you don't know what you're doing it'll probably sound bad. I'd suggest reading up on some harmony just so you can get a firm grasp on this stuff. Here's the basic (!) harmony curriculum from Berklee. It's been revised since this edition came out (1987!) but it should still be mostly the same (especially the more basic stuff).

http://valdez.dumarsengraving.com/PDFmusic/Berkleeharmony/Harmony1.PDF
http://valdez.dumarsengraving.com/PDFmusic/Berkleeharmony/Harmony2.PDF
http://valdez.dumarsengraving.com/PDFmusic/Berkleeharmony/Harmony3.PDF
http://valdez.dumarsengraving.com/PDFmusic/Berkleeharmony/Harmony4.PDF

Note: these books are written for "pop" or "jazz" musicians (I assume you fall under this umbrella). Because of this, the content is different from what you would find in a more classical-oriented "tonal harmony" type book like Kostka and Payne's Tonal Harmony (which I would also recommend reading). However, many of the differences are only in name and some concepts overlap. For example, what Berklee calls a "subV7" or "tritone sub" would be called an "augmented sixth chord" by a classical theorist.
Last edited by mattrusso at Nov 9, 2012,
goldfinger69
Soul Throw
Join date: Jan 2009
623 IQ
#9
Quote by mattrusso
Just take the key you're in and add the diatonic 7th. So for example, in C major the diatonic 7th chords are Cmaj7, D-7, E-7, Fmaj7, G7, A-7, and B-7b5. Obviously, you can go outside diatonic chords, but if you don't know what you're doing it'll probably sound bad. I'd suggest reading up on some harmony just so you can get a firm grasp on this stuff. Here's the basic (!) harmony curriculum from Berklee. It's been revised since this edition came out (1987!) but it should still be mostly the same (especially the more basic stuff).

http://valdez.dumarsengraving.com/PDFmusic/Berkleeharmony/Harmony1.PDF
http://valdez.dumarsengraving.com/PDFmusic/Berkleeharmony/Harmony2.PDF
http://valdez.dumarsengraving.com/PDFmusic/Berkleeharmony/Harmony3.PDF
http://valdez.dumarsengraving.com/PDFmusic/Berkleeharmony/Harmony4.PDF

Note: these books are written for "pop" or "jazz" musicians (I assume you fall under this umbrella). Because of this, the content is different from what you would find in a more classical-oriented "tonal harmony" type book like Kostka and Payne's Tonal Harmony (which I would also recommend reading). However, many of the differences are only in name and some concepts overlap. For example, what Berklee calls a "subV7" or "tritone sub" would be called an "augmented sixth chord" by a classical theorist.


Thanks man... I hope i'll find the time to read them.. But i really like experiment and play by ear... It was nice to hear a famous Minor Chord Progression with a different spin with 7ths ... I would love to be able to do that on other popular chord progressions .... thanks
mdc
UG's Mr Chord Man
Join date: Feb 2008
722 IQ
#10
Quote by goldfinger69
Oh no probs... I try to keep playin for fun and not really study music ... 7ths are cool addition .. i just need some easy answers like.. how we add them in a chord progression ...

Ok. Well it's your choice.

http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/2279.html
macashmack
Maskcashmack
Join date: May 2011
3,359 IQ
#12
Quote by shelovemyguitar
Wow. **** you man.


That was a great time to use that. I don't think that saying "**** you" to a guy who is right and trying to help someone is a constructive thing to do...
AeolianWolf
Tonal Vigilante
Join date: Jul 2009
186 IQ
#13
i agree with macashmack -- don't hate on someone with stronger musical sense and a deeper understanding of the machinations of music simply because of your own conscious ignorance and lack of skill.

TS, if you want to be able to do that, you should absolutely familiarize yourself with the conventions of harmony. it's just a matter of adding the diatonic 7th (as matt said) to the chord.

as far as the issue of Em and E, both are acceptable - to make the dominant (5) chord major is extremely common practice in a minor key - it creates the leading tone of the key (in this case, G# to lead back to A). look through the minor key section of your chord chart and try playing V - i, being sure to make all dominant chords major.

the basic idea that mdc is trying to tell you about, though (which i absolutely agree with) is that to be able to do this as second nature, you can't take the mentality that you need easy answers. these are concepts you need to know and (more importantly) understand if you want to be able to utilize them as you please. is that fair to say?
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
amonamarthmetal
Registered User
Join date: Aug 2008
1,808 IQ
#14
Quote by shelovemyguitar
Wow. **** you man.

He's not your man, buddy!
Gear:
Dean RC7X (Bareknuckle Coldsweat pickups)
Ibanez Rg2570Z (Bareknuckle Juggernaughts)
Schecter KM-6
Schecter Hellraiser Hybrid 7 String
Engl Powerball II
Orange PPC412
Line 6 Pod HD500X
AeolianWolf
Tonal Vigilante
Join date: Jul 2009
186 IQ
#15
Quote by amonamarthmetal
He's not your man, buddy!


he's not your buddy, guy!
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
amonamarthmetal
Registered User
Join date: Aug 2008
1,808 IQ
#18
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
C-c-c-combo breaker!

your princess is in another castle.
Gear:
Dean RC7X (Bareknuckle Coldsweat pickups)
Ibanez Rg2570Z (Bareknuckle Juggernaughts)
Schecter KM-6
Schecter Hellraiser Hybrid 7 String
Engl Powerball II
Orange PPC412
Line 6 Pod HD500X
shelovemyguitar
The "s" ^ didn't fit...
Join date: Jul 2007
1,065 IQ
#19
Quote by macashmack
That was a great time to use that. I don't think that saying "**** you" to a guy who is right and trying to help someone is a constructive thing to do...

How is he helpful? In the comment I quoted, he basically said: You have to learn the whole thing, or you'll never achieve anything. It didn't answer his question at all. What makes you think he has the time and will to learn music theory? Some people actually want to play music for FUN, nothing complicated.

Quote by AeolianWolf
i agree with macashmack -- don't hate on someone with stronger musical sense and a deeper understanding of the machinations of music simply because of your own conscious ignorance and lack of skill.

Ok so I guess I should stop making music since I'm just a worthless piece of crap who knows nothing about music theory and it's machinations right? Are you ****ing serious??? I'm not even hating on you guys because of your so immense musical knowledge, I'm hating on you guys because you believe you can't do music without being an arrogant and big-egoed "musician" like you guy's are.

If having a "stronger musical sense and a deeper understanding of the machinations of music" is having your philosophy, I don't want to have anything to do with that theory elitism crap.
Quote by DarkLiquor
I like you. Compassionate and strong. Glad theres people like you.

"What is the best kind of slave to have? One who does not realize they are a slave"
Wake up people!
amonamarthmetal
Registered User
Join date: Aug 2008
1,808 IQ
#20
Quote by shelovemyguitar
Some people actually want to play music for FUN, nothing complicated.

I want to cook for fun, brb putting random spices into a cake and cooking it on the stove.
Gear:
Dean RC7X (Bareknuckle Coldsweat pickups)
Ibanez Rg2570Z (Bareknuckle Juggernaughts)
Schecter KM-6
Schecter Hellraiser Hybrid 7 String
Engl Powerball II
Orange PPC412
Line 6 Pod HD500X
shelovemyguitar
The "s" ^ didn't fit...
Join date: Jul 2007
1,065 IQ
#21
Quote by amonamarthmetal
I want to cook for fun, brb putting random spices into a cake and cooking it on the stove.

Don't be a smartass. He never said anything about random notes and chords. He asked for precisions. I like to cook too, but it doesn't mean I must only do fine cuisine or else I'm a talentless retard. Good for you if you're really into music theory and stuff, but don't force it to others, and don't forget that knowing more stuff doesn't instantly makes you better. There is no wrong in music, it's a subjective thing.
Quote by DarkLiquor
I like you. Compassionate and strong. Glad theres people like you.

"What is the best kind of slave to have? One who does not realize they are a slave"
Wake up people!
20Tigers
1
Join date: Jun 2008
640 IQ
#22
Quote by goldfinger69
I'm not a much of a theory guy so I need someone to clean this up...

This Minor Chord Progression 1-4-7-3-5 (an example Am - Dm - G - C - Em)
is pretty popular i think.

So .... I've heard a song a few days ago and it was using that chord progression but ... full of 7ths ...It blew my mind ... (Am - Dm7 - G7 - C - E7) ... such a nice weird feeling with the inclusion of 7ths...

Please someone who can break down this for me...

Can I get any popular chord progression and add 7ths ..??

For example where do we add 7ths on this major hit-chord-progression 1-3-6-4 (C-Em-Am-F) ?? I tried to add on Em7 ... sounds weird ... maybe cause is a major Key instead of Minor?

Thank you

There are certain "tricks" that are very common in music, particularly in popular music. Here are some of those tricks...

You have your standard three chord trick which is a song that uses just three chords over and over.
the most common three chord trick uses the chords I IV V. The simplest form of this is a four bar structure I I IV V

Another trick is the four chord trick. It is pretty much the same as the three chord trick but it uses four chords instead of three. The most commong strucutre of the four chord trick uses the uses the same three chords from before and introduces one more chord. It sould be like this
I ? IV V (insert pretty much any other chord into the ? and repeat)

Yet another trick is the use of the chain of fifths. This exploits the strong dominant tonic relationship of the V-I. This root movement always sounds good.

So what we can do is build a chord progression by FOLLOWING each chord with one whose root is a perfect fifth BELOW have a chord (or PRECEDE it with a chord a perfect fifth HIGHER).

We can keep doing this over an over if we want until we get back to the start...
A D G C F Bb Eb Ab Db Gb Cb(B) E A (Cb is enharmonic with B which is a perfect fifth above E)

But often we don't want a chord progression that is 12 chords long. So what happens is we use a smaller chain of fifths and then some other move to get back to the tonic.

If we are in A for example we might use chords with a chain of fifths root movement such as
A D G C
but we want to get back to the tonic A With so many perfect fifth movements it is imporatant we approach the A from the dominant E so that we really tonicize the A chord.
So we have the root movement A D G C E A
Then we can harmonize these roots with the A minor diatonic scale to get
Aminor - Dminor - G - C - E7 - Am (It is normal to use E7 in the key of Am)

Or you can harmonize some of those chords to seventh chords
Am - Dm7 - G7 - C - E7 - Am
Si
mdc
UG's Mr Chord Man
Join date: Feb 2008
722 IQ
#24
Quote by shelovemyguitar
Some people actually want to play music for FUN, nothing complicated.

Fair play.
Quote by shelovemyguitar
and don't forget that knowing more stuff doesn't instantly makes you better.

No. But knowledge is power.
Quote by shelovemyguitar
Wow. **** you man.

Thank you.
Last edited by mdc at Nov 10, 2012,
macashmack
Maskcashmack
Join date: May 2011
3,359 IQ
#25
Quote by shelovemyguitar
How is he helpful? In the comment I quoted, he basically said: You have to learn the whole thing, or you'll never achieve anything. It didn't answer his question at all. What makes you think he has the time and will to learn music theory? Some people actually want to play music for FUN, nothing complicated.


Ok so I guess I should stop making music since I'm just a worthless piece of crap who knows nothing about music theory and it's machinations right? Are you ****ing serious??? I'm not even hating on you guys because of your so immense musical knowledge, I'm hating on you guys because you believe you can't do music without being an arrogant and big-egoed "musician" like you guy's are.

If having a "stronger musical sense and a deeper understanding of the machinations of music" is having your philosophy, I don't want to have anything to do with that theory elitism crap.


How does anything I posted make me an "Arrogant and big-egoed musician"? All i said was saying "**** You" to a guy who posted something was not constructive. If you had post what you just replied to me (saying that you may not need to go the whole nine yards if it isn't your forte) and all that jazz i wouldn't have said anything. You just jumped out of nowhere and cursed at a guy, which isn't very productive for anyone on these forums.
shelovemyguitar
The "s" ^ didn't fit...
Join date: Jul 2007
1,065 IQ
#26
Quote by macashmack
How does anything I posted make me an "Arrogant and big-egoed musician"? All i said was saying "**** You" to a guy who posted something was not constructive. If you had post what you just replied to me (saying that you may not need to go the whole nine yards if it isn't your forte) and all that jazz i wouldn't have said anything. You just jumped out of nowhere and cursed at a guy, which isn't very productive for anyone on these forums.

That part didn't apply to you precisely. And I don't think the answer the guy I said **** you to gave to TS is very productive either.
Quote by DarkLiquor
I like you. Compassionate and strong. Glad theres people like you.

"What is the best kind of slave to have? One who does not realize they are a slave"
Wake up people!
amonamarthmetal
Registered User
Join date: Aug 2008
1,808 IQ
#27
Quote by shelovemyguitar
That part didn't apply to you precisely. And I don't think the answer the guy I said **** you to gave to TS is very productive either.

Mdc always helps people when they ask chord questions.
Gear:
Dean RC7X (Bareknuckle Coldsweat pickups)
Ibanez Rg2570Z (Bareknuckle Juggernaughts)
Schecter KM-6
Schecter Hellraiser Hybrid 7 String
Engl Powerball II
Orange PPC412
Line 6 Pod HD500X
goldfinger69
Soul Throw
Join date: Jan 2009
623 IQ
#28
Woah... Didn't expect a war in my own thread! Peace guys! ....and sure.. there are not such thing as "easy answers".. Also my broken English is one more problem and they can piss out people.. Many things i write or say sound wrong (arrogant etc.)

I studied graphic design .. music is just my hobby.. i got a youtube channel with a bunch of punk covers and some originals (yes i compose original music without any knowledge on music theory)

Here's one of my most succesful video (view-wise) I don't think i suck that bad for amateur...

http://youtu.be/HAHmrcsJz1Y

I play all the instruments, try to sing and produce the songs in my crappy-so-called home-studio I've learned all these in my free time by asking silly questions on forums or watching youtube tutorials..

I could just steal chord progressions from songs with 7ths .. like the song i posted... and try to come up with my own melody.. or try and add 7ths by ear... I think i understand when something sounds good or bad.. but I decided to ask .. maybe there is a gifted UG user who can explain complicated stuff in one paragraph

Peace.. I love you all and thanks everyone who tried to help me
Last edited by goldfinger69 at Nov 10, 2012,
:-D
you're an idiot
Join date: Dec 2007
279 IQ
#29
Quote by shelovemyguitar

rofl

geaux away

this is similar to what you posted in another thread in which you said you were giving your 2 cents after essentially stating that learning theory applies limitations to one's ability to create music - just as i told you i would like to refund you those 2 cents, i'd like to do the same here

if you dislike the attitudes in here and proceed to immediately lose your temper after being told that your bullshit is, in fact, bullshit (like your "no wrong in music" bit, yet again) just don't visit this forum
20Tigers
1
Join date: Jun 2008
640 IQ
#30
Quote by goldfinger69
Woah... Didn't expect a war in my own thread! Peace guys! ...
Agreed some people here need to chill out, quit with the personal attacks, and post on topic.

Think before you submit your next post.
Si
AeolianWolf
Tonal Vigilante
Join date: Jul 2009
186 IQ
#31
Quote by shelovemyguitar
Some people actually want to play music for FUN, nothing complicated.


that's no excuse for shirking skill. if you have fun with it, have fun with it. if you consciously eschew learning more about what you do, that's your choice -- ignorance is the term, i believe.

Quote by shelovemyguitar
don't forget that knowing more stuff doesn't instantly makes you better.


no, it doesn't. not until i apply it and own it -- then it does.

Quote by shelovemyguitar
Ok so I guess I should stop making music since I'm just a worthless piece of crap who knows nothing about music theory and it's machinations right? Are you ****ing serious??? I'm not even hating on you guys because of your so immense musical knowledge, I'm hating on you guys because you believe you can't do music without being an arrogant and big-egoed "musician" like you guy's are.

If having a "stronger musical sense and a deeper understanding of the machinations of music" is having your philosophy, I don't want to have anything to do with that theory elitism crap.


then perhaps you should leave the ideas of actually knowing a damn thing about what you do to professionals. you're welcome to go ahead and do your own little thing. if you have fun, great. keep doing it. if you want to use it as an excuse that "lol i enjoy it so i dunt hav 2 study it rite", then that's your choice. i won't belittle you for it - but if you make a scene where you assert your own opinion on how knowing less is, in fact, better (because music is 100% subjective, of course), i WILL put you in your place. don't mistake my words for ego -- instead recognize your own for stupidity. you shouldn't be hating on anyone at all - who are you to hate on anyone? where are your results? how good are you? how much knowledge and skill have you amassed? these are all rhetorical questions, obviously -- i know the answers to them. how? because i know one key thing in life: attitude determines results. just by looking at a person's attitude i can determine their effectiveness, abilities, and, yes, potential. and it's always accurate: positive attitude = positive results, negative attitude = negative results. there is no exception.

bear in mind before you shoot your mouth off with drivel once more that i didn't force anything onto anyone - i came into the thread, reprimanded you (because, frankly, you were being a complete and total ass, and i'm phrasing that nicely), and gave TS the information he sought, then directed him down a path whereby he can learn even more to solve the problems he's facing.

and, for future reference, even if there was a shred of validity to the bullshit you're spewing, you're not doing yourself (or your viewpoint) any justice by talking the way you are. if you come into a forum and introduce yourself by saying "**** you", everyone immediately knows not to listen to you, because you don't even have enough tact to represent yourself properly, much less possess the awareness to make an objective analysis, decision, or accurate method of thought to, well, anything, really.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
91RG350
At least Microsoft cared
Join date: May 2011
281 IQ
#32
TS... heres the answer that was behind door number two:

Yes. You can add 7th's to chords if you want.

There are other chord types besides 7th's too. Grab a chord chart and try a few. Some will sound cool and some wont together. Have fun!

If that leads you to asking some more questions, come back and ask

Now, the bad news: This is the Musicians Talk forum. Now that we have chosen door number 2, it has closed forever and there is only one way out- the door with the number "1" on it...

.....we now return you to your regular programming.....
Quote by AlanHB
It's the same as all other harmony. Surround yourself with skulls and candles if it helps.
nugiboy
Registered User
Join date: Apr 2007
1,777 IQ
#33
I like the progression too. It reminds me in parts of Muse's song Unintended.
Are You Shpongled..?
funkyfigure8
Registered User
Join date: Jun 2007
208 IQ
#34
Quote by mattrusso
Just take the key you're in and add the diatonic 7th. So for example, in C major the diatonic 7th chords are Cmaj7, D-7, E-7, Fmaj7, G7, A-7, and B-7b5. Obviously, you can go outside diatonic chords, but if you don't know what you're doing it'll probably sound bad. I'd suggest reading up on some harmony just so you can get a firm grasp on this stuff. Here's the basic (!) harmony curriculum from Berklee. It's been revised since this edition came out (1987!) but it should still be mostly the same (especially the more basic stuff).

http://valdez.dumarsengraving.com/PDFmusic/Berkleeharmony/Harmony1.PDF
http://valdez.dumarsengraving.com/PDFmusic/Berkleeharmony/Harmony2.PDF
http://valdez.dumarsengraving.com/PDFmusic/Berkleeharmony/Harmony3.PDF
http://valdez.dumarsengraving.com/PDFmusic/Berkleeharmony/Harmony4.PDF

Note: these books are written for "pop" or "jazz" musicians (I assume you fall under this umbrella). Because of this, the content is different from what you would find in a more classical-oriented "tonal harmony" type book like Kostka and Payne's Tonal Harmony (which I would also recommend reading). However, many of the differences are only in name and some concepts overlap. For example, what Berklee calls a "subV7" or "tritone sub" would be called an "augmented sixth chord" by a classical theorist.


I never post on here, but man what a godsend. This is an excellent resource for someone who is crazy about composition but really only has a very loose, untrained grasp on even the most basic fundamentals of music making and theory.
Zoomyrs1
Registered User
Join date: May 2004
11 IQ
#35
Quote by 20Tigers
There are certain "tricks" that are very common in music, particularly in popular music. Here are some of those tricks...

You have your standard three chord trick which is a song that uses just three chords over and over.
the most common three chord trick uses the chords I IV V. The simplest form of this is a four bar structure I I IV V

Another trick is the four chord trick. It is pretty much the same as the three chord trick but it uses four chords instead of three. The most commong strucutre of the four chord trick uses the uses the same three chords from before and introduces one more chord. It sould be like this
I ? IV V (insert pretty much any other chord into the ? and repeat)

Yet another trick is the use of the chain of fifths. This exploits the strong dominant tonic relationship of the V-I. This root movement always sounds good.

So what we can do is build a chord progression by FOLLOWING each chord with one whose root is a perfect fifth BELOW have a chord (or PRECEDE it with a chord a perfect fifth HIGHER).

We can keep doing this over an over if we want until we get back to the start...
A D G C F Bb Eb Ab Db Gb Cb(B) E A (Cb is enharmonic with B which is a perfect fifth above E)

But often we don't want a chord progression that is 12 chords long. So what happens is we use a smaller chain of fifths and then some other move to get back to the tonic.

If we are in A for example we might use chords with a chain of fifths root movement such as
A D G C
but we want to get back to the tonic A With so many perfect fifth movements it is imporatant we approach the A from the dominant E so that we really tonicize the A chord.
So we have the root movement A D G C E A
Then we can harmonize these roots with the A minor diatonic scale to get
Aminor - Dminor - G - C - E7 - Am (It is normal to use E7 in the key of Am)

Or you can harmonize some of those chords to seventh chords
Am - Dm7 - G7 - C - E7 - Am



....and there is the readers digest version of about two semesters of composition/harmony courses. No one picks all of that shit up quickly, I know the base moments for a few keys and play the rest by ear. (by no means a pro....or even good, just been playing various instruments for 20+ years)

Once you start puttering around in 7th or worse 9ths there are a host of questions that you need to ask yourself.....starting with "what god damn key is that" that beauty of it being that there is NO hard set rules, the accidentals that appear in maj/min 7ths dominants, diminshed 9th and what not are mainly flavor.

They are also the difference between "Holy **** that sounds sweet" and "Oh more bar chords."

...and yes its quite complicated, good thing we aren't being graded on a web forum