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Darkflame
officialBOSS pedals hater
Join date: Feb 2006
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#1
I was just reading the "I want an amp to sound like Tremonti" thread and fell on something Blktiger0 said.

Quote by Blktiger0
I disagree. I bought my amp new, because it had just come out and there wasn't a used market for it. I also like to know that I'm supporting the manufacterer. Buying and selling used is actually one of the current issues with the economy. People would prefer to get a deal and buy used (which is completely understandable) so they do. However, the manufacturer makes zero dollars off of that. That's why the auto industry here in the states was offering ridiulous offers for trade-ins for a new car. Then they could start taking those old used cars off of the market. In fact, with videogames, I think the statistic is that upwards of 90% of the sales for a game are made in the first 3 months, due to all sales after that being used, which is why comapnies are starting to require online passes to play online features, and why they started doing DLC, so that they could make money through those. I would even venture to say that this is one reason for using cheap components other than maximising initial profits. If your product doesn't last forever, then people will have to continue buying new ones. They key would be finding the balance between quality and happiness from the customer. Make it nice enough and durable enough to please the customer, while making it cheap enough and impermanent enough that it won't last too long.

Now, don't think I'm being holier than thou, eliteist, etc. I have bought many things used, and I understand the pro's and con's. I'm poor as hell, and have no option but used sometimes. I'm just saying not to dismiss buying new as something only for rich assholes or idiots. If it weren't for those people, you wouldn't be getting your awesome used deal, because there wouldn't be used gear. SOMEONE has to buy it new.

However, like Dave said, you can get some good deals going new as well. Not quite as cheap as used, usually, but things like B-stock, Scratch-n-dent, etc. are usually good deals, as well as sales that stores have. I'm not sure if refurbrished items would make the Manufacturer any money or not, but you can usually get good deals on those as well. The only problem there is WHY did it need refurb'ed?

Now, I really wanted to reply, but realized I was writing a super duper off topic reply.

Basically, I am 100% on that. I personally work in the video games industry and I can see how pirating hurts it. I've worked with companies such as THQ, which is going down very low right now, and when you work with the people that are going to get laid off and in their offices, it doesn't feel great... But that is getting off-topic again. There are many reasons and blablabla.

Basically, I just wanted to have a discussion about that. I happened to buy my most recent stuff used, but it was stuff that you could never find new anymore. Try finding a Marshall 6100lm new on the shelf. Obviously, sometimes, there are no other options.
But it's kind of similar to the "Buy canadian" for twice as expensive as "Buy the same product made in China" (I'm in Canada). Does knowing you help your economy justify paying a premium?

I know I always want the people who made the product I'm enjoying to receive my money, as a form of support. Which is why I never ever pirate video games, and which is why I buy my music as well. What about you guys? How do you feel about that issue?


TL;DR: Buying used hurts the manufacturer by not giving them any money, and it hurts them economically. Is that enough to keep you from buying used? How do you feel about that? What justifies buying used VS buying new besides the price?


(Note: this is just for a discussion, and I do hope I'm not starting a war, as we've all seen happen on here)
Ippon
Amped
Join date: Feb 2006
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#2
I'll buy new when/if I really wanted/needed it that immediately for whatever reason: unavailability of it Used, it's so good for the price, etc. The few instances I bought gear New were when I had a coupon and/or the item was specially priced and/or I had to have it immediately.

This also applies to food.
W4RP1G
Please, call me Pig.
Join date: May 2010
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#3
I guess the only thing that makes sense(for the manufacturer) is to make a product that is only as good as it's warranty, and then only offer the warranty to the original buyer. That might sound crazy or unethical itself, but it's already true for some things. For instance, I won't even consider buying a TV used anymore. It used to be a viable option, but LCD TVs are so much less durable than TVs used to be, and I've had several go out in the 4 years that I've owned one.

It's kind of sad that if a product is sturdy and reliable it actually hurts the company. But I guess the consumer creates those circumstances and the consumer pays for it as well.
Last edited by W4RP1G at Nov 10, 2012,
Darkflame
officialBOSS pedals hater
Join date: Feb 2006
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#4
Quote by W4RP1G
I guess the only thing that makes sense(for the manufacturer) is to make a product that is only as good as it's warranty, and then only offer the warranty to the original buyer. That might sound crazy or unethical itself, but it's already true for some things. For instance, I won't even consider buying a TV used anymore. It used to be a viable option, but LCD TVs are so much less durable than TVs used to be, and I've had several go out in the 4 years that I've owned one.

It's kind of sad that if a product is sturdy and reliable it actually hurts the company. But I guess the consumer creates those circumstances and the consumer pays for it as well.

That makes some great sense, and it goes along with the video games analogy with season passes and stuff that registers with the first user of the game copy.
I find it sucky though that it's a matter of warranty with guitars and amplifiers. Amps are reliable enough not to need a warranty, and for guitars, it's even more obvious, as they don't cover anything you can't fix yourself
chatterbox272
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Join date: May 2011
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#5
Quote by Darkflame
Basically, I am 100% on that. I personally work in the video games industry and I can see how pirating hurts it. I've worked with companies such as THQ, which is going down very low right now, and when you work with the people that are going to get laid off and in their offices, it doesn't feel great... But that is getting off-topic again. There are many reasons and blablabla.)

Not in any way advocating piracy but I have been known to go purchase a game and then immediately download a pirated version to avoid DRM. They kinda shoot themselves in a foot a bit with that one.

Quote by W4RP1G
LCD TVs are so much less durable than TVs used to be, and I've had several go out in the 4 years that I've owned one.

Get better TVs, We've had one for god knows how long and haven't had a single problem with it.

The problem I see with buying stuff new is that they don't give us a good reason to do it. With a couple of exceptions, the music stores around me don't like me just going to try things out before I make a purchase. Even though I'm there enough to know I will make the purchase once I'm happy with my choice. There's a couple of places that are very keen to rip me off too. And then there's the 'Australia Tax' we get around here, What I get on the used market is about what I'd be paying for new in the US.
Unpleasant customer experience + massive overpricing, really doesn't make me want to get new gear.
PussyPunk182
Josh
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#6
Buying used isn't flushing your money out of the economy, it is simply putting it back into the hands of a consumer rather than that of a firm. Because of this, we see a higher amount of consumer spending in the economy - this is the spending that is helping other firms that could be completely irrelevant to the first product's industry, but either way still boosting the economy.

I could theorise that if it weren't for a used market, many people wouldn't be able to buy the goods they want anyway because of the problem of a price which is too high, and so might stop buying the goods they wanted all together. And so we would see firms actually not making that much more money.

As well as this, the used market is a great way for firms to find out what old products they used to make to bring back in to production. For example, Fender reissue amps and vintage designed Gibson Les Paul's. Another great thing the used market is to firms is that it can be used to grow their popularity. If I find a TC electronic pedal going fairly cheap on Ebay I may go ahead and pick it up. If I really like it for reasons I cannot come to through watching a youtube demo, (e.g. build quality or a particularly well working sound in my chain) I may well go and buy other TC pedals that I can't find on Ebay, or perhaps my new likeness to their products will actually compel me to buy their pedals brand new - in the case of the Fanboy/girl.
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Quote by alans056
Maybe the price tag is clouding your judgment ?
yeah probably. Or the circuits.
W4RP1G
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#7
Well, they could make amps really crappy, but the problem with that is people rely heavily on their gear when they are playing live. The company with the more reliable be gear would obviously become the first choice for gigging musicians, and subsequently develop a reputation among other musicians that would increase sales.

As for guitars, I don't know how they could deal with that. Perhaps make the warranty more useful? Even then I don't think that would affect the used market very much. But I can't say I really feel for guitar manufacturers, they seem to throw more and more guitars out there every year so they must be making money at it.
KG6_Steven
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#8
Buying used versus new is a matter of economics. People will buy a product when the value of the item equals the value of their money. This can come down to perceived value. In other words, I really like that shiny, new amplifier, but I don't think it's worth x dollars. However, I find a used one for y dollars, which meets my perceived value of the product and I buy it.

One also must weigh the perceived value of a warranty against the cost of the merchandise. When I purchase online, I frequently find returned items, which are a few hundred less than a brand new product. Problem is, they often won't have a warranty and I won't buy them. Why? Because I'm betting the product may fail, leaving me with an expensive paper weight. On the other hand, I've purchased items on auction sites that were very expensive brand new, but much cheaper used. Why? Because the price offset was great enough that, if it did fail, I could still justify repairing it myself, or sending it out for repair. Along that same vein, I've also bought items from Musician's Friend that were returned as defective. I bought them at a huge discount, knowing that I could likely repair them.

Darkflame mentioned that amps are reliable enough not to need a warranty. Not sure I'd agree with that. I bought a brand new Mesa Lonestar a few years back. The dealer had to order it, since he didn't have it in-stock - so it was never played in the store. Within a couple of weeks, a tube failed in it and Mesa sent me a replacement under warranty. Granted, it was an inexpensive tube, but still - the warranty covered it. Another example... My wife bought a Fender amp. We bought it brand new in the box. Got it home and it failed out-of-the-box. Warranty covered the replacement of the amp.
Robbgnarly
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#9
I agree that the manufacture doesn't make money on the used market. But many can not or will not pay the premium of new, others think new is the only way.

I like buying new gear when I can afford it, but my last few gear purchases have been used. An my next few purchases will also be used. I just can't justifuy spending $1500+ on a new head when I can get that same amp for $500-$700.
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gregs1020
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#10
When I buy a used amp or guitar, the seller is usually using that money to buy something else.

Maybe something used or new.

Most of the guitar buying type people buy new. I learned that while working in a store.

The average forum savvy used buyer is not in the majority of guitar players.

I support the companies I like by recommending their products. Don't forget that when a given shopper is researching a purchase they may become one of the many lurkers here. They read our thoughts and posts and that does influence purchases of new products.

That said, I buy new and used depending on the circumstance.
Quote by Roc8995
I don't think I've ever played anything in black walnut. It's a great ice cream flavor, so I assume it works well for a strat too.

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tukk04
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#11
Part of the rights of owning something is the right to sell it for whatever someone will pay, thats why vintage gear can be sold for 10 times more than it's worth, it just the way free market works. If selling used items wasn't allowed then it would hurt the economy because no one would invest in physical product.
fly135
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#12
IMO there are zero moral issues involved with buying used. Nada, none, zip. There is no logic to support it. If anything consumption of resources by the more privileged inhabitants of this planet would be a moral issue if you wanted to consider it. And that issue supports the idea that buying used is more moral.
gregs1020
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#13
Economics and morality...

This is gonna be good.

Quote by Roc8995
I don't think I've ever played anything in black walnut. It's a great ice cream flavor, so I assume it works well for a strat too.

Quote by JustRooster
The slugs in the pickups for telecasters are from old winchester rifles, which is why they sound so country.
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#14
Give a ****? If I can't afford to buy it new I should go without? Well **** you, Jimmy.
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tukk04
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#15
Quote by fly135
IMO there are zero moral issues involved with buying used. Nada, none, zip. There is no logic to support it. If anything consumption of resources by the more privileged inhabitants of this planet would be a moral issue if you wanted to consider it. And that issue supports the idea that buying used is more moral.

So are you pro-used? couldn't tell from your wording.
tukk04
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#16
Quote by Cathbard
Give a ****? Well **** you, Jimmy.

Yeah, the people that say stupid crap like "If you can't afford to buy it new you should go without" are the ones that either have money or are righteous assholes. I can't believe people actually think that. If I'm paying for used, that just means I'm buying an item for what I believe it's worth in it's current condition, if it's new, then I pay for new condition+warranty. If I'm okay with buying something in used condition no-one has any right to say I can't.
Cathbard
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#17
What about the guy selling the used item? He doesn't deserve my money - why exactly? What do you think he's going to do with it? Shove it up his arse? He's gonna spend it isn't he? There are more elements to an economy than just manufacturer to rich customer, there are entire other stratas.
I should care more about some rich multinational corporation than the little battler trying to make ends meet? Even if I want to give my money to a junky that's my ****ing business and anybody that doesn't like it can kiss my arse.
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#18
I don't think that I ever bought anything used. Not even a car...
I'm probably buying a used snowboard to learn on though. But gonna buy new if I dig it enough so yeah...I like having things new cause I like to screw them up myself, not have somebody do it before me. Where's the fun in that?
And it's awesome to look at a thing (a car, a guitar,...) and go ''man so many good memories'' or think about all the shit you've been through while using the item and not think about somebody else having sex in the back seat of your first car before you got it.
And I recently sold my first car which was passed on to me by my bro (this is different...it's family ;P ) and I still wonder who bought it and if the new owner appreciates it as much as I did.
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gregs1020
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#19
Quote by Cathbard
What about the guy selling the used item? He doesn't deserve my money - why exactly? What do you think he's going to do with it? Shove it up his arse? .... anybody that doesn't like it can kiss my arse.

Arse.

You like it.
Quote by Roc8995
I don't think I've ever played anything in black walnut. It's a great ice cream flavor, so I assume it works well for a strat too.

Quote by JustRooster
The slugs in the pickups for telecasters are from old winchester rifles, which is why they sound so country.
tukk04
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Join date: Sep 2008
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#20
@Kozlic: yeah but that's different, you're doing it by choice. You aren't trying to convince (read: force) others to buy new. Everyone should have the choice depending on what they want out of a product.
Cathbard
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#21
Quote by gregs1020
Arse.

You like it.

See, buying used has unforeseen fringe benefits.
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fly135
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#22
Quote by tukk04
So are you pro-used? couldn't tell from your wording.
I personally buy a lot of stuff used. My point was that I'm neither pro nor con wrt buying used from a moral standpoint. I can't see any case for thinking it's wrong to buy used.
tukk04
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#23
Quote by fly135
I personally buy a lot of stuff used. My point was that I'm neither pro nor con wrt buying used from a moral standpoint. I can't see any case for thinking it's wrong to buy used.

that's what I thought you meant
KG6_Steven
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#24
Quote by fly135
IMO there are zero moral issues involved with buying used. Nada, none, zip. There is no logic to support it.



Exactly. If the manufacturer wants customers to purchase their product, instead of a used one, they should sell their products at a better price. The fact is, most companies are pretty good at selling their products at a price the market will bear. Those who don't, well, they're not around very long. Again, it comes back to economics and perceived value.
Arby911
Finding the Pattern
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#25
Quote by Darkflame



TL;DR: Buying used hurts the manufacturer by not giving them any money, and it hurts them economically. Is that enough to keep you from buying used? How do you feel about that? What justifies buying used VS buying new besides the price?


(Note: this is just for a discussion, and I do hope I'm not starting a war, as we've all seen happen on here)


Your appear to assume the mfr is the only party of note in the transaction, which isn't correct.
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Darkflame
officialBOSS pedals hater
Join date: Feb 2006
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#26
Quote by Arby911
Your appear to assume the mfr is the only party of note in the transaction, which isn't correct.

I'm dumbing it down greatly, I'm aware of that. However, they are most likely one of the most hurt, as middlemen such as stores still do sell used gear and get a great commission on these.
Also, I was mostly viewing it from their point of view, making the product and not getting the money from it. I'm not pretending I know everything either, I'm pretty far from being an economist, but the way I view it, the manufacturers definitely do get hurt by the used market. I'm also informing myself in here :-)

As for the "Sell new for cheaper if you want us to buy new", I don't see that being relevant. If the new product is cheaper, the used market will get it for even cheaper, else it won't sell. Unless I'm missing something?
monwobobbo
Registered User
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#27
a good lesson in economics would help tis thread. yes buying a product used is bad for the manufacturing end of things as it impacts their economic situation however there is way more to it than that. if you buy used at say GC well then that puts money into the stores pocket and f course the employees there. of course the other ? is would you buy a given item if you can't justify the cost? probably not. most people i think enjoy getting something shiny and new but hey were not all rich either. also part of the perceived value of any item is going to be resale. something like an american made strat has a better perceived value as you can sell it used for a decent percentage of the new asking price. on the othere hand a mexi-strat drops by 40% as soon as you walk out the door with it.

in the current economic climate manufacturers need to find way to entice perspective buyers to buy new. that is just part of business. lets face it for most guitar gear isn't essential (lets keep that a secret from the wives and girlfriends though).
Cathbard
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#28
The manufacturer is the one most likely to be the one most hurt? What about the guy selling the used amp? Chances are that that money is a bigger proportion of his income than it is to some corporation. I'd say that that means it would hurt him more, wouldn't you?
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W4RP1G
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#29
The consumer is probably the winner in the used market. But on an individual basis, if I look at how much money I made last year vs the money of some corporate executive at a company that is "losing money" because of the used market, I can't bring myself to feel bad. I'm sure there is much more to it than that, but that's how I see it.
Kevin Saale
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#30
**** manufacturers, I'd rather put my money in the hands of someone who isn't a faceless, soul stealing entity.
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gumbilicious
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#31
i buy used for a number of reasons

-i can get product i want... they don't make Acoustic 270R or '69 Fender twin reverbs anymore
-i support local economy, my guitar shop can attest to that
-i can afford more/better product

until i find things new that i want, i am not going to buy them. also, since i am used to getting a certain value for buying used, most new stuff doesn't appeal to me.

that being said, i have recently bought two new products from people on this forum. Greeny's Toyroom effects is providing me a new pedal, and Craig's CEC amps is providing me a new amp. in the past year i also purchased a new Suhr T2. some of the first 'new' things i have bought in a while that i actually feel are worth it.
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#32
Remember that the guy who sells used gear will maybe buy something to replace it. Or then he just doesn't use the amp or whatever he's selling. Would it be better to just throw it away? If it works perfectly and you don't use it, why not sell it?

I would buy new if I could afford it.
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#33
Not to mention, its nearly impossible to find a quality MIA amplifier for under 1000 dollars new. Just isn't gonna happen.
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#34
Some one made a great point earlier. Buying a used amp gives that person more dollars to spend. For example- a user on here Jptan bought a used MKIV, the guy was selling it to fund a MKV. Mesa got a sale in the end.


Next point- the auto industry is great for comparisons.....

Product cycles- you need to continually change/reinvent to keep people buying.

If no one bought used the prices then everyone would take such a huge hit in the pocket book buying new that they would just get used instead. Wouldn't make sense financially. Having a strong used market attracts new sales as the price difference is less.

The Auto industry now does CPO's. This puts money back into the manufacturer(and dealer) even for used units. Customer wins as they have a warranty as well.


I sold a bunch of used stuff to fund my MKV. It was my choice as I could afford it. Was it a mistake financially? Yes. Now the used market tanked and I would take a $1000 hit if I were to sell it.
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I K0nijn I
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#35
I buy new when the price difference isn't that big with the used market, or it just isn't available used. For instance: I would have saved 300 euros on my Les Paul and SG combined. On the total price of those combined, that's not that much, so I bought them both new. Mainly because I like new stuff over used stuff. My Mesa, I bought used, because I would've payed double for one new.

Some prices new are just too ridiculous to pay new. I wouldn't buy a new Mesa, not even now that I have one. 2500 euros, no thanks. I could get 2, maybe 3 amplifiers for that amount of money.
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#36
Buying new gives your money to manufacturers which can then stay in business.
Buying used gives money to the people which can then turn around and buy new from other manufacturers.

Basic econ 101 says that as long as you're spending money, you're okay
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Dave_Mc
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#37
i always find it funny (more like bemusing) when people (normally it's on tgp ) act like it's unethical to buy a cheaper clone, but perfectly fine to buy used.

that being said, do i care that much about used versus new, ethically? not really. i tend to buy new for other reasons. i'd side with what cath said on that.

plus, knowing you can sell something on if you have to probably increases new sales, too. how many people would buy new if it were illegal to sell something on second-hand?
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I K0nijn I
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#38
Quote by Dave_Mc

plus, knowing you can sell something on if you have to probably increases new sales, too. how many people would buy new if it were illegal to sell something on second-hand?


If it was illegal, there wouldn't be a huge used market either, so buying used would be harder, which would lead to people rather buying new.
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Offworld92
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#39
Pirating doesn't hurt game companies. People who pirate would most likely have not bought it anyway. No pirate has ever said "shit, it's not on TPB, guess I gotta go out and buy it now".

On the other hand, if someone pirates something and really loves it, there's a chance they may be inclined to buy it after the fact to support the people who made it.


Similarly, I don't think people who buy used would go out and buy something if they can't find it used. The bottom line is usually budget, and most people aren't going to settle for an inferior new product just to support a manufacturer they never interact with face to face.

With that in mind, if someone is buying your product used, it's most likely because they can't afford it new - therefore they wouldn't have bought it new anyway.
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Peavey Predator USA
Douglas Grendel 725
Line 6 Pod HD500X
Dave_Mc
Chirp and Swirl
Join date: Mar 2005
2,967 IQ
#40
^ +1

Quote by I K0nijn I
If it was illegal, there wouldn't be a huge used market either, so buying used would be harder, which would lead to people rather buying new.


yeah but people might decide to save their money, too. yes, if you need an amp, you'll probably still buy an amp- but you might not have 5 amps.
Quote by classicrocker01
Only on UG would I say I got engaged and bought a jet city and get congratulated on the amp