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#41
I buy used when appropriate. I don't generally buy new amps, to me that is a waste of money and they are just a pile of wood, metal and components. I was also an electronic technician by trade for most of my working career so I can keep an old amp running indefinitely. Guitars I tend to buy new, but that is because to me they are something personal, they grow with me which makes no sense because effectively they are also a pile of wood, metal and components.

Musical instruments and gear do have an advantage in that a lot of low end (high profit) stuff is sold to beginners and I think I read a study somewhere that the people who purchase these tend to quit playing after 90 days but rarely sell off the gear.

The used market is more centred around the high end stuff which would explain why Gibson Les Pauls are exponentially more expensive than you would expect. They just can't sell as many new because of the amount of them in the used market.
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#42
Dear Odin, what did I start? I suppose this is what I get for saying words....

Really. though, this is a very insightful discussion, with some great views and information. I'm kinda honored that I started this, seeing as how I'm pretty terrible when it comes to things like business and economics. (I'm learning, though! )

I mean, as someone that's poor as f***, I greatly appreciate used. However, if you don't support the manufacturer, you won't have your great used prices, because anything desirable that is no longer in production has been known to skyrocket in price (See:NOS). I certainly wasn't suggesting that the used market should be done away with or is a terrible, evil thing. I just think people should be made aware what buying used means. I personally never realized the fact that buying used means that I'm not actually supporting the comapny at all (with that purchase). As for the idea that someone is going to sell their used item and buy new, I find that unlikely. Most of the people I know that sell used stuff buy most of their stuff used. They sell a used car to buy a different used car. They sell their used Dune Buggy to buy a used Motorcycle. They sell their used Mesa 4x12 and buy a used Orange 4x12. Is everyone like that? Definitely not. It's just the majority of people that I know.

Pirating is a different story altogether. I agree with what Offworld said. If someone pirates something, they didn't intend to buy it in the first place. However, if they enjoy what they pirate, it will likely lead them to purchases. I have friends that have never paid a dime for any of their music, but they go to concerts more often than Lemmy got laid. Personally, if I buy a game for Xbox, I have no qualms pirating it for PC. I already paid for it, I'm not going to pay again to play it on a different system. It would be like buying a guitar that you play on a Dual Rec, but you have to buy it again if you want to play it on a 6505. There's no way in hell I'm paying for it twice.

I guess to be more concise with my views, I think that if you can afford the new price (even if it means saving for a little longer) then you should try to opt new, as a form of support. However, if you have a tight budget, or are seeking an item that is no longer in production, then used is the way to go. In addition, there are the "assholes" that refuse to buy used. Now, it might seem ridiculous that they won't buy used, but I think it's just as ridiculous that someone would refuse to buy anything new. It's the same concept, only one person is being an elitist asshole and the other is being a penny-pinching asshole. However, they're both entitled to their views on the subject, and they should really thank each other for being the way they are. Without the people that buy new, the used-aholics have no way to get newer items in the used market, and without the people tht buy used, the new-aholics have nobody to sell their old stuff to. It's a pretty good system.

In my opinion, it's just like buying local versus buying from a corporation. You shouldn't do one or the other, you should do both. Big Corporations exist for the same reason that famous bands exist. They've paid their dues, and they provide something that a large number of people like, so, in return, they make out like bandits for that. However, you should support local business (and musicians) as well, because not only are they just trying to get by like anyone else, they also could very well be the next Corporation or famous band. I personally like local shops because if they know of a deal that you would like, they'll let you know. They work with their prices more, and are generally more friendly and honest. However, I like bigger places because of better selection and lower prices in general without needing a deal.

TL;DR: Don't stick with one or the other, do both.
Last edited by Blktiger0 at Nov 10, 2012,
#43
Every time I walk on stage with my used Marshall 1960 cab Marshall get a piece of free advertising - they should be paying me!
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#44
Quote by Kevin Saale
**** manufacturers, I'd rather put my money in the hands of someone who isn't a faceless, soul stealing entity.


+1000
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#45
Quote by Cathbard
Every time I walk on stage with my used Marshall 1960 cab Marshall get a piece of free advertising - they should be paying me!


See, they ARE paying you...in sound quality!
#47
Quote by monwobobbo
a good lesson in economics would help tis thread. yes buying a product used is bad for the manufacturing end of things as it impacts their economic situation however there is way more to it than that. if you buy used at say GC well then that puts money into the stores pocket and f course the employees there. of course the other ? is would you buy a given item if you can't justify the cost? probably not. most people i think enjoy getting something shiny and new but hey were not all rich either. also part of the perceived value of any item is going to be resale. something like an american made strat has a better perceived value as you can sell it used for a decent percentage of the new asking price. on the othere hand a mexi-strat drops by 40% as soon as you walk out the door with it.


Here's a problem with this thread, it hinges on so many topics that it'll be hard to disentangle all the point-of-views and arguments at the end of the day.

However, since someone talked about economics, I wanted to chip in on how buying USED does can actually help instead of hurt the economy.

First and foremost we what economists call the multiplier effect, the concept isn't particularly counter-intuititive or bizarre, but tends to be generally overlooked by many people.

Basically what the multiplier effect hinges on is the fact that every $1 spent by a consumer isn't just $1 towards a country's GDP. Every dollar that is spent, a portion will go to savings, and another portion goes towards spending (labour, cost of products, purchases of future products, paying bills, paying for food or movies or another guitar).

So as the multiplier effect goes towards 1 (meaning that for every dollar spent, every cent in that dollar is re-spent). So assuming all else constant and there are no negative economic conditions like stagflation or hyper inflation, a higher multiplier effect usually equates into higher economic activity, as every dollar spent results in more economic activity being generated.

So the question here lies in: is the multiplier effect higher when the money goes towards someone selling a used product, or is it higher when going towards a company? If it goes towards selling consumer who uses the money to save up, then broadly speaking the multiplier effect is zero and there is no responding on the money. However if the money goes towards a company that responds everything on R&D or other economic activity, then it has a greater impact on the economy (assuming a condition where interest rates =0).

Of course this assumes a simple condition where we don't consider the impact of savings and interest rates. Taking savings an infrastructure spending into consideration complicates the scenario a lot further.
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#48
Quote by Kevin Saale
**** manufacturers, I'd rather put my money in the hands of someone who isn't a faceless, soul stealing entity.


I dislike this train of thought - it essentially boils down to the opposition of great success. No one starts a multi-billion dollar company. Every company starts as the "local guy making a unique product". It's not fair how everyone around him then wants him to stay small, and not achieve great success doing what he does.

Quote by fattychronic
Buying used is better for the environment.


I have mixed feelings about this argument. It's the same as the paperless movement. On one hand yeah, if those products weren't going to be produced, then the environment would be better off for it. But on the other hand, you not using a product isn't going to have any effect whatsoever on that product's production. Since it's already been produced and it's out in the world, it doesn't make much sense not to use it.
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Last edited by Offworld92 at Nov 11, 2012,
#49
**** economics. Anybody that tries to stop me buying a used amp will get a hammer to the head. And anybody that tries to lay off some capitalist ideological guilt trip on me for doing same is unlikely to fare better. It's my money and I'll give it to whoever I ****ing well feel like.

**** the economy, **** your ideologies, **** your theories, **** your moralising and **** you too.


That is all. I now return you to your regular scheduled program.
Have a nice day.
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#50
Quote by Offworld92
I have mixed feelings about this argument. It's the same as the paperless movement. On one hand yeah, if those products weren't going to be produced, then the environment would be better off for it. But on the other hand, you not using a product isn't going to have any effect whatsoever on that product's production. Since it's already been produced and it's out in the world, it doesn't make much sense not to use it.


In other words buying and using a used fridge that still uses CFC, is not helping the environment.

Second, if people stop demanding a product, it won't affect the quantity that's already out there on the shelves. However, it will stop further production of the products in future. A company won't keep producing a product with no demand.
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#51
I'll admit, I've probably spent more money buying albums, going to shows, finding more bands, and buying more albums from the new bands I found all becuase I downloaded 9 songs. A lot more money.

As far as buying used, I almost always buy used. It's a money factor. I don't have the money to spend on new and usually what I like tends to be a great deal when bought used. That being said, I'm trying to sell an amp on craigslist (without so much as a care to the manufacturer) because I'm trying to fund another amp that I'll be getting brand new from a brick and mortar store.

I really don't think there is an issue with buying new or used. I would never tell someone else how to spend their money. It isn't mine and I didn't earn it.
#52
Quote by Blktiger0
In addition, there are the "assholes" that refuse to buy used. Now, it might seem ridiculous that they won't buy used, but I think it's just as ridiculous that someone would refuse to buy anything new. It's the same concept, only one person is being an elitist asshole and the other is being a penny-pinching asshole. However, they're both entitled to their views on the subject, and they should really thank each other for being the way they are. Without the people that buy new, the used-aholics have no way to get newer items in the used market, and without the people tht buy used, the new-aholics have nobody to sell their old stuff to. It's a pretty good system.


that's a good point

Quote by fattychronic
Buying used is better for the environment.


I'm not convinced that's true. The person I buy it off might use that money to do something much more environmentally unfriendly...
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#53
Quote by Cathbard
**** economics. Anybody that tries to stop me buying a used amp will get a hammer to the head. And anybody that tries to lay off some capitalist ideological guilt trip on me for doing same is unlikely to fare better. It's my money and I'll give it to whoever I ****ing well feel like.

**** the economy, **** your ideologies, **** your theories, **** your moralising and **** you too.


That is all. I now return you to your regular scheduled program.
Have a nice day.

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#54
This thread is full of so much stupid
Call me Dom
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#55
Quote by Offworld92
I dislike this train of thought - it essentially boils down to the opposition of great success. No one starts a multi-billion dollar company. Every company starts as the "local guy making a unique product". It's not fair how everyone around him then wants him to stay small, and not achieve great success doing what he does.


That was just a little sarcasm. I still say **** the manufacturers though. If your business doesn't make money, you have only yourself to blame.
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#56
Let's go back to the car example.

Let's say a new car costs $20,000 (just an estimation, I'm no auto guy). I can either buy that car right off the lot, or I can wait 3 years, let someone else pay that money, put a few miles and scratches on it, then buy it from them for $10,000. It's still the same car, it probably runs about the same as it used to, I just paid half of the price for it.

The same goes for guitars and smps. If I buy used I save a lot of money, and for a guy who makes minimum wage flipping burgers, cost is important to me. Used or new, you can take your pick in the end, but since it doesn't matter to me, I'm willing to go used. Regardless, of all my guitars and amps I've only bought 2 used, but then again, I'm not in the market for Splawns and Gibsons that cost thousands of dollars.
I pride myself on my humility.
#57
Quote by ragingkitty
Here's a problem with this thread, it hinges on so many topics that it'll be hard to disentangle all the point-of-views and arguments at the end of the day.

However, since someone talked about economics, I wanted to chip in on how buying USED does can actually help instead of hurt the economy.

First and foremost we what economists call the multiplier effect, the concept isn't particularly counter-intuititive or bizarre, but tends to be generally overlooked by many people.

Basically what the multiplier effect hinges on is the fact that every $1 spent by a consumer isn't just $1 towards a country's GDP. Every dollar that is spent, a portion will go to savings, and another portion goes towards spending (labour, cost of products, purchases of future products, paying bills, paying for food or movies or another guitar).

So as the multiplier effect goes towards 1 (meaning that for every dollar spent, every cent in that dollar is re-spent). So assuming all else constant and there are no negative economic conditions like stagflation or hyper inflation, a higher multiplier effect usually equates into higher economic activity, as every dollar spent results in more economic activity being generated.

So the question here lies in: is the multiplier effect higher when the money goes towards someone selling a used product, or is it higher when going towards a company? If it goes towards selling consumer who uses the money to save up, then broadly speaking the multiplier effect is zero and there is no responding on the money. However if the money goes towards a company that responds everything on R&D or other economic activity, then it has a greater impact on the economy (assuming a condition where interest rates =0).

Of course this assumes a simple condition where we don't consider the impact of savings and interest rates. Taking savings an infrastructure spending into consideration complicates the scenario a lot further.


I'll be honest, that was the most disjointed argument I've read on here so far. I can't tell what you're arguing for/against, and most of it skipped around so much that it was hard to understand.

What i did get out of it is that this "mulitplier effect" basically has to do with how much of each dollar spent on something is then re-spent buy the revieving party. In that case, you can't make an argument either way. The consumer that is selling a used product could be selling it to save their money or could be selling it to buy something else. Maybe even both. However, a company that sells something would be more complicated, but also more consistent. A good portion of the money is going to go to making more of the product and R&D like you mentioned, but it's also going to go into paychecks for employees, which would fall into the same category as the money someone gets from selling a used item, only it's guaranteed that a certain portion of their paycheck is spent on bills and food.

In that case, I would say your argument means that buying new DOES stimulate the economy more, because it puts money in the hands of more consumers and a producer.

Again, I'm not an economist, though, I'm just using reasoning and logic paired with the little knowledge I have of business and economics.
#58
He summed up Econ 101.
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#59
Quote by mtshark
Used or new, you can take your pick in the end, but since it doesn't matter to me, I'm willing to go used.


That's the argument in a nutshell, I think (well, aside from the whole ethics thing, but let's ignore that for a moment )- I prefer to go new, but it doesn't matter to me that others go second hand, either. What does bother me is people who go s/h acting like everyone who goes new is an idiot.

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#60
Who was it that said, "if economists and politicians only talked about things they actually understood the silence would be glorious." ?

Sounds like something H.L. Menken would have said.
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#61
When people buy new they are not supporting my economy. Terribly immoral
#62
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#63
Personally, I prefer my guitars new and generally go for my amps used.

Amps are much easier to sort out if the previous owner has abused them, and I don't get all the dirt from someone else's fingers or any fret wear. I also get to put my own chips and dents into the guitar and create it's own story.

Used amps come with broken in speakers, leave budget for re-tubing, any issues with faulty components have become apparent and can be remedied so they don't fail during gigs.

Having said that I'll buy the best deal, one of my main guitars is used because I got it for a great price, and both my current amps are new (albeit B-Stock) because the price was good and the used market didn't have them.
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#65
Quote by Blktiger0
The "easier to sort out" thing is completely backwards. Trouble shooting for a guitar that isn't working is much easier than an amp that isn't working, any day of the week.


Its all preference. For a tech trouble shooting an amp, especially some of the simpler tube amps, is super easy. I don't think he meant actually T/S a bad guitar, but more or less making it 'his'. I generally prefer to build my gear or buy it used, but I don't really like used guitars as much as used amps.
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#66
in response to blktiger's point about how a 90% of a video game's sales are within the first 3 months of its release -

10% of the sales probably still makes an unfathomable amount more money than the average consumer will make in their lifetime. the used market doesn't hurt an industry that big. they've already made the billions of dollars in profit that they wanted, before their products even start to appear on the used market.

i see used products as a product the manufacturer has already made their profit on. the people who lose out are the previous owners, who often sell the product for less than they paid for it when they bought it new, due to depreciation. but that's their choice - if they need the money more than they need the guitar...
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#67
Quote by Blktiger0
The "easier to sort out" thing is completely backwards. Trouble shooting for a guitar that isn't working is much easier than an amp that isn't working, any day of the week.

I never said "not working" I said used. I'm also talking from the perspective of someone who would take their stuff to a tech, not DIY it.

Used amp have dodgy/worn filter caps, duff tubes, very occasionally the speaker needs a re-cone, fairly inexpensive and quick to repair for someone who knows what their doing.

Used guitars have worn frets that require at least a dress but a lot of the time a refret, if you dislike the scratches that takes time to buff out, hardware and plates get tarnished, and need a full polish or replacement.

Personally I am an amp tech but have been learning the guitar tech stuff from my boss and getting pretty good with it. I can guarantee that I can bring an amp up from used/abused to full working condition twice as fast as my boss can fix just the frets on a used guitar.
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#68
Buying used should not hurt a company. If they should recieve money if someone sells it as used, they should not get any money out of it.

If I sell my AC30 to someone else, vox sold one amp in the end and got their profit, end of story. If a used amp get's 4 new owners, the producer should not get 4 times extra profit on a product they just made once.
#69
Hey man these assholes wanna preach about the 'free market...' Well sometimes the free market ****s itself in the ass. That's their problem, not mine.
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#70
Quote by Blktiger0
The "easier to sort out" thing is completely backwards. Trouble shooting for a guitar that isn't working is much easier than an amp that isn't working, any day of the week.

There are no electronic components in an amp that are as hard to change as a fret - not even close.
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#71
Quote by Cathbard
There are no electronic components in an amp that are as hard to change as a fret - not even close.

My point exactly
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#72
ok think of the ecological impact if we all just threw our old equipment out. millions of MG's piled up everywhere . sure you could give it away but that has the same impact on the profits of the manufactures so i guess we can't do that. on the other hand think of all the players who got there start because they were able to buy used gear cheap. if they had to spring real money at the start then they may have never taken up the guitar.
#73
i blame the person who makes the mg, not the person with the sense to throw it away
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#74
Guess we can't sell used houses anymore either...

This thread is stupidity incarnate!
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#75
Quote by Cathbard
There are no electronic components in an amp that are as hard to change as a fret - not even close.


Coming from an amp tech, that's probably true. I guess for me, guitars are easier because I've been woodworking since about age 8. That kind of thing is second nature for me in the way that making a Bluesbreaker is second nature to you. I hand't even thought of that, though. I forget that I'm used to that kind of work Different strokes, right?

Quote by Blompcube
in response to blktiger's point about how a 90% of a video game's sales are within the first 3 months of its release -

10% of the sales probably still makes an unfathomable amount more money than the average consumer will make in their lifetime. the used market doesn't hurt an industry that big. they've already made the billions of dollars in profit that they wanted, before their products even start to appear on the used market.


I'm not sure the exact percentage, it was upwards of 90%, though. Still, if it takes them 2 years to make a game and then all of their profit is made in 3 months, that doesn't give them long-term payment. The money they make in that 3 months has to then run the company for another 2 years to make the next game. It's not like when a Band releases an album, then tours until the next one, making more money off of the tours than the album. I've also never really seen much of a market for Used CD's or Movies, only Games.
Last edited by Blktiger0 at Nov 14, 2012,
#76
Quote by Arby911
Guess we can't sell used houses anymore either...




that really would kill the economy

(you could probably make an argument that half the economy shouldn't be based on a housing boom, but even still... you don't want to get rid of it until you have something more sensible to take its place... a house of cards is probably safer than no house at all )
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#77
Quote by Blktiger0

I'm not sure the exact percentage, it was upwards of 90%, though. Still, if it takes them 2 years to make a game and then all of their profit is made in 3 months, that doesn't give them long-term payment. The money they make in that 3 months has to then run the company for another 2 years to make the next game. It's not like when a Band releases an album, then tours until the next one, making more money off of the tours than the album. I've also never really seen much of a market for Used CD's or Movies, only Games.


I've tried to refrain, but this is just ****ing ignorant. Ever heard of concurrent development? It's not like a company can only have a single product in the queue at any given time.

And even if it were true, don't you think that a competent business model takes that into account?

If a manufacturer can't be profitable due to a well known market reality, they don't deserve to be in business. It really is just that simple.

Buying used does NOT harm the manufacturer, since they price their initial offerings according to market demand and margin requirements. Once they sell it, they have made their profit, end of story.

Buy new if you want to, won't bother me a bit, but lets not pretend there's some ethical nobility attached, because that's utter horseshit.

Just....****....stop....
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
Last edited by Arby911 at Nov 13, 2012,
#78
Hang on. So if it might mean that the gap between new games hitting the market takes longer it's a moral and/or ethical issue? Huh?
Stopping somebody from buying something because they can't afford to buy it new actually is an ethical/moral issue. You're saying "**** the poor, if they can't afford to give their money directly to our corporate overlords let them go without." You're not even saying "let them eat cake." You're saying "let them starve"
Some high moral ground you've got going there. Methinks that you're standing on your head.
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#79
When did I say there's an ethica nobolity? I never mentioned this as an ethical debate, the TS did. I'm certainly not an a high horse, or debating against used. I buy a lot of my stuff used. I own many used games, a used car, etc.

Where the hell are you pulling that I'm saying **** the poor? I AM POOR! I seriously think there is some massive reading into what I said there. I was simply stating that they aren't making consistent money throughout when the game is available.

Jesus Christ...

My stance on this is simply that I think that buying New is better for the economy than buying Used. In fact, if you read back, I stated quite clearly that I think it's absolutely necessary for both to exist, and that nobody should go just one way, although there's still nothing wrong with only buying used or only buying new.

Seriously, where the **** did this notion that I think buying used is ethically wrong come from?

EDIT: To be more thorough with my reply:
Quote by Arby911
I've tried to refrain, but this is just ****ing ignorant. Ever heard of concurrent development? It's not like a company can only have a single product in the queue at any given time.

And even if it were true, don't you think that a competent business model takes that into account?

If a manufacturer can't be profitable due to a well known market reality, they don't deserve to be in business. It really is just that simple.

Buying used does NOT harm the manufacturer, since they price their initial offerings according to market demand and margin requirements. Once they sell it, they have made their profit, end of story.

Buy new if you want to, won't bother me a bit, but lets not pretend there's some ethical nobility attached, because that's utter horseshit.

Just....****....stop....


I know that many firms develop multiple games at once. It was a simplification. However, smaller firms can't do that. For example, Bungie made Halo and only Halo for a good while.

Yes, the bussiness model will take that into account. I never said it wouldn't. I was simply stating that they may make all of that money, but it has to be stretched long-term.

It doesn't harm them, but it also doesn't support or help them. My stance was that when you buy used you don't support the Manufacterer in the sense that they get none of your money for their product. Do I think they should get a royalty when you buy used? No. They made their money on that amp. I'm stating an observation that when you buy used, none of the money you pay goes to the Manufacterer.

Again, I have never once said that there was an ethical nobility, other than supporting a company you like. Not really a nobility, if you ask me. It's more of "I enjoy Mesa's products and want them to keep making these products. Used would be cheaper, but I can afford new, so I'll buy new."

Still I don't understand where you guys are getting that I'm acting like it's ethically noble, or makes you a better person to buy new.

Quote by Cathbard
Hang on. So if it might mean that the gap between new games hitting the market takes longer it's a moral and/or ethical issue? Huh?
Stopping somebody from buying something because they can't afford to buy it new actually is an ethical/moral issue. You're saying "**** the poor, if they can't afford to give their money directly to our corporate overlords let them go without." You're not even saying "let them eat cake." You're saying "let them starve"
Some high moral ground you've got going there. Methinks that you're standing on your head.


No, I wasn't saying buying used delays the development of games, nor did I say that it made it a moral or ethical issue.

When did I say that if you can't buy new that you shouldn't have something at all? My advice to clear this up is to read Post #42, specifically, the paragraphy that starts with "I guess to be more concise...". Alternatively, you can read the TL;DR at the bottom. I still don't get where I'm saying to **** the poor.
Last edited by Blktiger0 at Nov 14, 2012,
#80
I work hard for my money. I buy used and new, usually depends on the quality or what I figure I need. It comes down to my money and I'll decide how to best spend it or waste it.

Comparing buying used guitar gear to video game piracy is ridiculous, its like comparing going to the bar for a pint and going to a crack house. One is legal and one is not.