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#1


So, as I'm sure we all know by now, the US is approaching a pretty big issue. Between Bush-Obama tax cuts expiring and huge spending cuts from the debt ceiling crisis taking effect, we are fast approaching a "fiscal cliff". In more detail (from Wiki), the following policies are set to take effect on January 1, 2013:















                So do we compromise? And if so, how exactly? Not raising tax rates but closing deductions and loopholes? Negotiating on cutting less? Or do we maintain gridlock and go off the cliff? Would we be better or worse in the long run?
                #DTWD
                #3
                Mr. President I don't like what I'm seeing. Shall I turn it off?
                But we little know until tried how much of the uncontrollable there is in us, urging across glaciers and torrents, and up dangerous heights, let the judgment forbid as it may.
                #4
                Apart from people having to pay more taxes (which no one likes but don't americans pay low taxes anyway comparing to the rest of the world?) why is this such a bad thing?

                It's an honest question, I don't really understand whats happening and I'm curious
                ~And the raindrops in the cars

                Keep on falling from off the bars

                Blocking out a good song

                Playing on the radio~
                #5
                Quote by Thecla
                Apart from people having to pay more taxes (which no one likes but don't americans pay low taxes anyway comparing to the rest of the world?) why is this such a bad thing?

                It's an honest question, I don't really understand whats happening and I'm curious

                well the tax breaks were in place to help pull the economy out of recession. If they start reintroducing the higher tax rates now, the worry is that the economy isn't strong enough to withstand it yet (e.g. more stuff like this happens) and could plunge right back down again.

                EDIT: but the problem is the governments hand is being forced by the national debt situation.

                roughly... I've just tried to catch up with a bit of googling in the last 10 minutes
                Last edited by Diamond Dave at Nov 12, 2012,
                #6
                Bros?

                Bros.
                Quote by GLP_Arclite
                Pooping is well good though, to be fair.


                I've got a handle on the fiction.

                I'm losing my grip, 'cos I'm losing my fingers.
                #7
                Quote by Thecla
                Apart from people having to pay more taxes (which no one likes but don't americans pay low taxes anyway comparing to the rest of the world?) why is this such a bad thing?

                It's an honest question, I don't really understand whats happening and I'm curious


                They're basically projecting that it will cause another recession as it will put more pressure on the private sector with the tax increases while simultaneously cutting government's ability to create jobs via spending cuts. CBO projects the unemployment rate will go back to 9.1%.

                If we were to keep everything as is we would eventually reach another fiscal crisis where our debt becomes so exorbitant that we would no longer be able to borrow money at reasonable interest rates and would likewise be screwed.

                So they want to compromise by cutting spending and extending the tax cuts while closing loopholes and deductions (so that people in the highest bracket pay a higher effective rate, closer to or at the 35%).

                Part of me says **** it though. Let's go off the cliff. We might go into recession, but it might be the best option long term. But I'm not really decided either way.
                #DTWD
                #8
                Compromise with House Republicans essentially means adopting their positions. Let them "compromise" with us for once. Or let's just go off the cliff.
                Quote by EpiExplorer
                I swear this guy in particular writes for the telegraph or some shit.

                Quote by Fat Lard
                My name can actually be traced back to as early as the 1990s, it means "fuck off data miner"
                #9
                Quote by Thecla
                Apart from people having to pay more taxes (which no one likes but don't americans pay low taxes anyway comparing to the rest of the world?) why is this such a bad thing?

                It's an honest question, I don't really understand whats happening and I'm curious

                I mean yeah, if you want your government to steal your money and give it to lazy fucks on welfare, be my guest.
                UG's King Neptune

                Quote by AtaBorMan
                You're the biggest dick we've had in the Pit for a while.
                Quote by SLEESTAK_BRO
                Stop talking, you have are the biggest dick the pit has seen in a while.
                #10
                Quote by StillSublime
                I mean yeah, if you want your government to steal your money and give it to lazy fucks on welfare, be my guest.

                because that's all governments do with tax money
                #11
                Quote by Diamond Dave
                well the tax breaks were in place to help pull the economy out of recession. If they start reintroducing the higher tax rates now, the worry is that the economy isn't strong enough to withstand it yet and could plunge right back down again.

                EDIT: but the problem is the governments hand is being forced by the national debt situation.

                roughly... I've just tried to catch up with a bit of googling in the last 10 minutes



                Yeah, except for the Bush Era tax cuts, those bastards...

                It is a little bit scary, but elections are out of the way until congressional elections in 2014, so... Not... Super... Worried?
                #12
                Quote by L2112Lif
                Yeah, except for the Bush Era tax cuts, those bastards...

                It is a little bit scary, but elections are out of the way until congressional elections in 2014, so... Not... Super... Worried?

                oh ok, well like I said I'm a recent follower of the situation

                thanks for the extra info.
                #14
                Quote by primusfan
                They're basically projecting that it will cause another recession as it will put more pressure on the private sector with the tax increases while simultaneously cutting government's ability to create jobs via spending cuts. CBO projects the unemployment rate will go back to 9.1%.

                If we were to keep everything as is we would eventually reach another fiscal crisis where our debt becomes so exorbitant that we would no longer be able to borrow money at reasonable interest rates and would likewise be screwed.

                So they want to compromise by cutting spending and extending the tax cuts while closing loopholes and deductions (so that people in the highest bracket pay a higher effective rate, closer to or at the 35%).

                Part of me says **** it though. Let's go off the cliff. We might go into recession, but it might be the best option long term. But I'm not really decided either way.

                What is so good in having another recession? If you would go off the cliff and a recession follows somewhere along the line there have to be measures taken to get out of it again. Why not take measures before a recession happens?
                ~And the raindrops in the cars

                Keep on falling from off the bars

                Blocking out a good song

                Playing on the radio~
                #15
                Quote by magnus_maximus
                Tax the rich to pay for tax cuts for everyone else.


                What a GREAT idea, I'm amazed no one has thought of this before...


                Too bad there aren't enough rich folks to tax...so in order for your plan to work, we'll need more rich folks.

                Any thoughts on where we might get them?


                On topic, count me on the side of the cliff divers...I'd rather have some economic pain now instead of economic collapse due to unsustainable borrowing and spending in the future.
                “Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
                Charles Darwin
                Last edited by Arby911 at Nov 12, 2012,
                #16
                Quote by ErikLensherr
                Compromise with House Republicans essentially means adopting their positions. Let them "compromise" with us for once. Or let's just go off the cliff.


                Well yeah, but you have to take into account that their whole reason for being obstructionist was to get rid of Obama. And he won in a landslide, liberals got more seats in the Senate and in House races, Democrats won the national popular vote (when added together) and if not for GOP redistricting in several states, might have taken the House quite possibly. Or at least closed in on them.

                Basically, things aren't looking good for Republicans and they know at this point if something bad happens, they'll be blamed for it. So he came out saying they would not support any tax increases. But he said we need additional revenue. Code for "we need more tax money." So basically they're saying we can make the effective rate higher by closing loopholes and deductions.
                #DTWD
                #17
                Quote by StillSublime
                I mean yeah, if you want your government to steal your money and give it to lazy fucks on welfare, be my guest.


                Or, you know, provide important services for those less well off
                Quote by GLP_Arclite
                Pooping is well good though, to be fair.


                I've got a handle on the fiction.

                I'm losing my grip, 'cos I'm losing my fingers.
                #18
                Quote by Diamond Dave
                because that's all governments do with tax money

                Oh right, I forgot that they use it to maintain the infrastructure of the country, like they should be doing.

                Oh wait..

                No, they also use our tax money to pay for Obama's vicious ads on television, to pay wasteful and useless wars that are only good for the war machine in this country, to pay for other countries' problems when we have quite enough issues on the home turf, etc., etc...

                Quote by metacarpi
                Or, you know, provide important services for those less well off

                Lol.
                UG's King Neptune

                Quote by AtaBorMan
                You're the biggest dick we've had in the Pit for a while.
                Quote by SLEESTAK_BRO
                Stop talking, you have are the biggest dick the pit has seen in a while.
                #19
                Quote by StillSublime
                Oh right, I forgot that they use it to maintain the infrastructure of the country, like they should be doing.

                Oh wait..

                No, they also use our tax money to pay for Obama's vicious ads on television, to pay wasteful and useless wars that are only good for the war machine in this country, to pay for other countries' problems when we have quite enough issues on the home turf, etc., etc...


                StillSublime 2014
                Quote by GLP_Arclite
                Pooping is well good though, to be fair.


                I've got a handle on the fiction.

                I'm losing my grip, 'cos I'm losing my fingers.
                #20
                Quote by magnus_maximus
                Wh...what?


                What?


                What?




                Run the numbers.

                Put in any rational percentage for a tax rate and see what you come up with.

                There aren't enough rich people to tax, your laughter notwithstanding.

                Quote by primusfan
                And he won in a landslide,



                I'm guessing you're using a different version of 'landslide' than I'm used to?
                “Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
                Charles Darwin
                Last edited by Arby911 at Nov 12, 2012,
                #21
                Quote by Thecla
                What is so good in having another recession? If you would go off the cliff and a recession follows somewhere along the line there have to be measures taken to get out of it again. Why not take measures before a recession happens?


                because CBO.

                Quote by Congressional Budget Office
                According to CBO’s projections, if all of that fiscal tightening occurs, real (inflation-adjusted) gross domestic product (GDP) will drop by 0.5 percent in 2013 (as measured by the change from the fourth quarter of 2012 to the fourth quarter of 2013)—reflecting a decline in the first half of the year and renewed growth at a modest pace later in the year. That contraction of the economy will cause employment to decline and the unemployment rate to rise to 9.1 percent in the fourth quarter of 2013. After next year, by the agency’s estimates, economic growth will pick up, and the labor market will strengthen, returning output to its potential level (reflecting a high rate of use of labor and capital) and shrinking the unemployment rate to 5.5 percent by 2018.
                #DTWD
                #22
                Yeah lets cannibalize the rich for THE GREATER GOOD.

                Ain't nobody got time for that.
                But we little know until tried how much of the uncontrollable there is in us, urging across glaciers and torrents, and up dangerous heights, let the judgment forbid as it may.
                #23
                Quote by magnus_maximus
                What planet do you actually live on?

                What...I mean... do you even read what you're saying?

                1) Even Hoover admitted America's defense forces/FBI etc are basically rogue, anyway and are esoteric from Government in many ways, and Obama didn't even start the damn war.

                2) Obama's ads were paid for by the Democrats. Like, you know, Romney's were paid for by the Republicans.

                3) Your own country's problems stem back to Neoliberal policymaking and failed right-wingism, not centrist Democrat-ism.

                1) You could actually read what I said, for one. Also, that's why the government needs to get in control of it's own faculties.

                2) Uh, no.

                3) Socialism isn't right wing.
                UG's King Neptune

                Quote by AtaBorMan
                You're the biggest dick we've had in the Pit for a while.
                Quote by SLEESTAK_BRO
                Stop talking, you have are the biggest dick the pit has seen in a while.
                #24
                Quote by StillSublime
                Oh right, I forgot that they use it to maintain the infrastructure of the country, like they should be doing.

                Oh wait..

                No, they also use our tax money to pay for Obama's vicious ads on television, to pay wasteful and useless wars that are only good for the war machine in this country, to pay for other countries' problems when we have quite enough issues on the home turf, etc., etc...

                lol, well yeah they're all reasonable things to complain about but welfare payments aren't.
                #25
                Quote by StillSublime
                1) You could actually read what I said, for one. Also, that's why the government needs to get in control of it's own faculties.

                2) Uh, no.

                3) Socialism isn't right wing.


                OOOOHHH BURN!
                Quote by GLP_Arclite
                Pooping is well good though, to be fair.


                I've got a handle on the fiction.

                I'm losing my grip, 'cos I'm losing my fingers.
                #26
                Quote by magnus_maximus
                What planet do you actually live on?

                What...I mean... do you even read what you're saying?

                1) Even Hoover admitted America's defense forces/FBI etc are basically rogue, anyway and are esoteric from Government in many ways, and Obama didn't even start the damn war.



                the fuck?
                But we little know until tried how much of the uncontrollable there is in us, urging across glaciers and torrents, and up dangerous heights, let the judgment forbid as it may.
                #27
                Quote by primusfan
                Well yeah, but you have to take into account that their whole reason for being obstructionist was to get rid of Obama. And he won in a landslide, liberals got more seats in the Senate and in House races, Democrats won the national popular vote (when added together) and if not for GOP redistricting in several states, might have taken the House quite possibly. Or at least closed in on them.

                Basically, things aren't looking good for Republicans and they know at this point if something bad happens, they'll be blamed for it. So he came out saying they would not support any tax increases. But he said we need additional revenue. Code for "we need more tax money." So basically they're saying we can make the effective rate higher by closing loopholes and deductions.

                Not good enough. After running (and winning a strong mandate) on letting the Bush tax cuts expire, any "compromise" that fails to do so is a cave for the Democrats.

                I mean if we can't get that done now, in the aftermath of an electoral landslide and with upwards of 60% of the public on our side, we're really just at new levels of useless...
                Quote by EpiExplorer
                I swear this guy in particular writes for the telegraph or some shit.

                Quote by Fat Lard
                My name can actually be traced back to as early as the 1990s, it means "fuck off data miner"
                #28
                Quote by Thecla
                Apart from people having to pay more taxes (which no one likes but don't americans pay low taxes anyway comparing to the rest of the world?) why is this such a bad thing?

                Compared to the rest of the world, we probably pay about the same.

                Edit:
                Quote by StillSublime
                1) You could actually read what I said, for one. Also, that's why the government needs to get in control of it's own faculties.

                2) Uh, no.

                3) Socialism isn't right wing.

                And this is why threads like this are bad, TS. Someone ALWAYS ends up with major butthurt and then it becomes an argument. It just snowballs until we might as well all abandon the thread. Otherwise, we just end up as giant dicks.

                Below is an illustration of the endstate of a thread like this.
                Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Nov 12, 2012,
                #29
                Quote by StillSublime
                1) You could actually read what I said, for one. Also, that's why the government needs to get in control of it's own faculties.

                2) Uh, no.

                3) Socialism isn't right wing.

                ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
                Quote by EpiExplorer
                I swear this guy in particular writes for the telegraph or some shit.

                Quote by Fat Lard
                My name can actually be traced back to as early as the 1990s, it means "fuck off data miner"
                #30
                Quote by magnus_maximus
                You fall for it every time.
                UG's King Neptune

                Quote by AtaBorMan
                You're the biggest dick we've had in the Pit for a while.
                Quote by SLEESTAK_BRO
                Stop talking, you have are the biggest dick the pit has seen in a while.
                #32
                Quote by ErikLensherr
                and with upwards of 60% of the public on our side,


                Or, you know, 50.53%

                Close though, thanks for playing...

                Quote by magnus_maximus
                I can't back that one up, I can't remember where I heard it and I wasn't talking about the army- rather the CIA/FBI.


                And it has ****-all to do with the subject at hand, so what was your intent in sharing it?
                “Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
                Charles Darwin
                Last edited by Arby911 at Nov 12, 2012,
                #33
                Quote by primusfan
                because CBO.

                Ok so I don't understand, isn't the quote you posted FOR the increased taxes etc? It talks about the fiscal constrains (English isnt my first language and I can't really find out if it is for or against the policy.)
                ~And the raindrops in the cars

                Keep on falling from off the bars

                Blocking out a good song

                Playing on the radio~
                #34
                Quote by magnus_maximus
                I mean yeah, I totally said 'It's Obama's fault,' right? No, I said our tax money is wasted on wars that are useless and unnecessary.
                UG's King Neptune

                Quote by AtaBorMan
                You're the biggest dick we've had in the Pit for a while.
                Quote by SLEESTAK_BRO
                Stop talking, you have are the biggest dick the pit has seen in a while.
                #35
                Quote by StillSublime
                Oh right, I forgot that they use it to maintain the infrastructure of the country, like they should be doing.

                Oh wait..

                No, they also use our tax money to pay for Obama's vicious ads on television, to pay wasteful and useless wars that are only good for the war machine in this country, to pay for other countries' problems when we have quite enough issues on the home turf, etc., etc...


                Lol.



                Actually, that's reasonably illegal and easy to trace.
                #36
                Quote by Diamond Dave
                lol, well yeah they're all reasonable things to complain about but welfare payments aren't.

                I don't have a problem with the welfare concept, but it's a bloated and abused system here.

                Quote by L2112Lif
                Actually, that's reasonably illegal and easy to trace.
                So is pretty much everything else he does, but does anybody say anything? Nope.
                UG's King Neptune

                Quote by AtaBorMan
                You're the biggest dick we've had in the Pit for a while.
                Quote by SLEESTAK_BRO
                Stop talking, you have are the biggest dick the pit has seen in a while.
                Last edited by StillSublime at Nov 12, 2012,
                #37
                Quote by magnus_maximus
                That is absolutely false.

                We certainly have the highest corporate tax rate in the world, I know that from here.

                You could argue that our tax rate vs. our GDP isn't high compared to the rest of the world. However, the average American who makes $50k or more is probably paying roughly the same as the average person in the UK who makes 32k or more (in British pounds).
                #38
                Quote by StillSublime
                I don't have a problem with the welfare concept, but it's a bloated and abused system here.

                fair enough, you don't want to be dolling out cash willy nilly obviously. Not sure how your system works but I'll take your word for it.
                #39
                Quote by magnus_maximus


                Ok, sometimes I miss things because the images don't show up due to firewall issues.

                At this point, Obama is just as responsible for the ongoing hostilities as Bush was, among other things, that's what being the leader for the last 4 years gets you.
                “Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
                Charles Darwin
                #40
                Quote by magnus_maximus
                We have universal healthcare and you have a fuckoff huge army and 5,000 nukes.

                Big whoop! Why we pay roughly the same doesn't matter. I was merely saying we do.
                Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Nov 12, 2012,
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