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#1
*Stealthy vs. thread...*

I haven't been in MT too long, but I have seen many many threads talking about modes, and many people saying they are outdated.

What I am wondering is what strengths do each have, and what does one allow that the other doesn't allow as easily? I understand keys fairly well, but modes to me seem to be overly complex, and inefficient at getting the same point across.

If someone said to me to playing in C Lydian, I'd probably go, "WTF". However, if someone told me we were playing in the key of C but with a #4, I'd go, "Okay, so play in C, but play an F# instead of an F".

So what are the pros and cons of each?

Sorry if this has been done before.
Caution:
This post may contain my opinion and/or inaccurate information.

Current Rig:
2006 PRS CE-24
Mesa/Boogie Mark V
Voltage S212 w/ V30's
Strymon Timeline
CMATMods Signa Drive
TC Electronics Corona & Hall of Fame
#2
There aren't really pros and cons. This is like asking what are the pros and cons of serialism vs. Hindemith-style tonality. They're two totally different things.

The reason people say they're outdated is because a) they heard someone else here say it and they're parroting it back and b) for the most part people don't even know what modal means when they ask about it and it's not at all what they're looking for. Modes are a different concept of harmony altogether from the major/minor tonal system. In reality modes are extremely simple, the complexity arises when someone tries to explain modal concepts with tonal understanding.

Also, Manitoba brothers.
#3
Quote by jazz_rock_feel

Also, Manitoba brothers.

I one upped him... Winnipeg brothers
Gear:
Dean RC7X (Bareknuckle Coldsweat pickups)
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#4
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
Modes are a different concept of harmony altogether from the major/minor tonal system. In reality modes are extremely simple, the complexity arises when someone tries to explain modal concepts with tonal understanding.


</thread>, because there is no point here that is incorrect.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#5
Quote by AWACS

What I am wondering is what strengths do each have, and what does one allow that the other doesn't allow as easily? I understand keys fairly well, but modes to me seem to be overly complex, and inefficient at getting the same point across.


So what are the pros and cons of each?


There are very few "pros" of modes.

I suppose the pros of modes are as an ease of understanding chord-scale-theory, which is an advanced improvisatory concept in jazz. The only other pro is that you'll hear people use the terms and you should understand what they mean by them - in most settings it's inappropriate to respond to somebody's comment that they're playing in G Mixolydian by saying "It's not mixolydian, you mean G major with a flat 7th." Despite what you might think from listening to people in this forum, these are terms that are used with some frequency by musicians and you should understand what they mean whether or not you agree that they're using the term correctly.

Beyond that, uh ... I can't think of any.

Keys, on the other hand, are the basis of 99.9% of contemporary music. It's impossible to understand music if you don't understand how they work.

If it's a "vs" thread, it's a rout. Keys. There's no meaningful debate.
#6
Quote by HotspurJr

Keys, on the other hand, are the basis of 99.9% of contemporary music. It's impossible to understand music if you don't understand how they work.

That has got to be a made up statistic.
#7
Quote by amonamarthmetal
I one upped him... Winnipeg brothers


I used to live in Winnipeg... Now I'm in Flin Flon


So, another question, in what situations would you want to use keys as opposed to modes? I'm sure there is no be-all-end-all answer, but would classical music for example, be more mode-centric (or modal?) whereas modern music would mostly be with keys? Or would modes be more for analyzing and keys more for playing? where with keys you could throw and accidental in when needed?
Caution:
This post may contain my opinion and/or inaccurate information.

Current Rig:
2006 PRS CE-24
Mesa/Boogie Mark V
Voltage S212 w/ V30's
Strymon Timeline
CMATMods Signa Drive
TC Electronics Corona & Hall of Fame
#8
Quote by GoldenGuitar
That has got to be a made up statistic.


Well they have been the basis of contemporary music for the last 200 years or so. I'm confident that if somebody actually sought to prove the statistic it would be largely correct.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#9
Quote by AWACS
I used to live in Winnipeg... Now I'm in Flin Flon

I'm so, so sorry.

Quote by AWACS
So, another question, in what situations would you want to use keys as opposed to modes? I'm sure there is no be-all-end-all answer, but would classical music for example, be more mode-centric (or modal?) whereas modern music would mostly be with keys? Or would modes be more for analyzing and keys more for playing? where with keys you could throw and accidental in when needed?

Modes just flat out aren't really necessary. Classical music dabbled with them a bit in the earlier part of the 20th century, and then again with the god damn minimalists, but by and large there hasn't been a ton of modal music, outside of (real, not Bob Dylan) folk traditions, since the Renaissance (which is not to say there's been none, just that there hasn't been a lot).

Hotspur actually had a good point in that there's some benefit to learning how Guitarists/Jazzists think of modes because some people do use those weird terminologies to communicate. Outside of that, I'm not sure I see the benefit. I will say that CST is everywhere, so if you go to school for jazz you'll probably learn it.

You need to understand that modes and keys are two different things. You can't effectively analyze keys with modes or vice versa (this may get some argument).
#10
Quote by GoldenGuitar
That has got to be a made up statistic.

It's a good ballpark. Given the sheer amount of songs that are created and released these days, even saying that one out of a hundred are modal is too much.
^^The above is a Cryptic Metaphor^^


"To know the truth of history is to realize its ultimate myth and its inevitable ambiguity." Everything is made up and the facts don't matter.


MUSIC THEORY LINK
#11
You will rarely see modes used outside of very early baroque music (like palestrina), and some avant-garde 20th century stuff. They just don't make sense in other contexts.

That said I do use the modes as a way to easily comp a jazz bassline when I only have the chords in front of me. If the chord is Bb9(b3) then I just use a Bb dorian poisition becuase the notes will fit. I am only using it as a hand shape, not as a way of analyzing, or anything like that.
Strauss!
"I am hitting my head against the walls, but the walls are giving way." - Gustav Mahler.

Quote by AeolianWolf
absolutely what will said

Yay, my first compliment!
#12
jazz_rock_feel: Yeah...

Will42: Thanks for answering.

i'm just trying to understand the place that keys and modes have, without having to go to school for it And try and make sense of all of these modes threads that pop up often.
Caution:
This post may contain my opinion and/or inaccurate information.

Current Rig:
2006 PRS CE-24
Mesa/Boogie Mark V
Voltage S212 w/ V30's
Strymon Timeline
CMATMods Signa Drive
TC Electronics Corona & Hall of Fame
#13
Quote by AWACS
jazz_rock_feel: Yeah...

Will42: Thanks for answering.

i'm just trying to understand the place that keys and modes have, without having to go to school for it And try and make sense of all of these modes threads that pop up often.

You need to read in to the history of music, and how it's evolved. It's the best way.
#14
Quote by will42
You will rarely see modes used outside of very early baroque music (like palestrina), and some avant-garde 20th century stuff. They just don't make sense in other contexts.

That said I do use the modes as a way to easily comp a jazz bassline when I only have the chords in front of me. If the chord is Bb9(b3) then I just use a Bb dorian poisition becuase the notes will fit. I am only using it as a hand shape, not as a way of analyzing, or anything like that.


This is not a true statement... modes are used in contemporary music all the time. They are constantly used in Jazz and fusion, as well as progressive rock. They are also used more than you think in Pop music.... one of the most overplayed Pop songs in the last 10 years, Coldplay's Clocks, is in Eb Mixolydian. They are extremely useful if you understand them and know how to use them. Most people do not fully understand them... any "Major" and "minor" key is itself a Mode (Ionian and Aeolian).
#15
Quote by HamrockGuitar
This is not a true statement... modes are used in contemporary music all the time. They are constantly used in Jazz and fusion, as well as progressive rock. They are also used more than you think in Pop music.... one of the most overplayed Pop songs in the last 10 years, Coldplay's Clocks, is in Eb Mixolydian. They are extremely useful if you understand them and know how to use them. Most people do not fully understand them... any "Major" and "minor" key is itself a Mode (Ionian and Aeolian).

#16
Quote by HamrockGuitar
This is not a true statement... modes are used in contemporary music all the time. They are constantly used in Jazz and fusion, as well as progressive rock. They are also used more than you think in Pop music.... one of the most overplayed Pop songs in the last 10 years, Coldplay's Clocks, is in Eb Mixolydian. They are extremely useful if you understand them and know how to use them. Most people do not fully understand them... any "Major" and "minor" key is itself a Mode (Ionian and Aeolian).


really? interesting. i guess, being a theory instructor, i must not know jack shit.

want to explain to me how coldplay is not just in Eb major? and you want to explain to me how a major key is related to the ionian mode (without making a reference to the majo scale, unless your music is just you playing scales)?
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#17
Quote by AeolianWolf
really? interesting. i guess, being a theory instructor, i must not know jack shit.

want to explain to me how coldplay is not just in Eb major? and you want to explain to me how a major key is related to the ionian mode (without making a reference to the majo scale, unless your music is just you playing scales)?


Here's a fun exercise for you... pour yourself a nice glass of white zinfadel and cue up Clocks. Play the Eb Major scale with emphasis on the D natural. Really hit it and listen to how it sounds over that Bb minor and Db Major chords. No amount of academic study is going to make up for playing a wrong note, my friend. As far as your other question, I'll answer it with a question to you since you are a Music Theory Teacher... what are the notes in the C Major Scale? What are the notes in the C Ionian Mode?
#18
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
I'm so, so sorry.


Modes just flat out aren't really necessary. Classical music dabbled with them a bit in the earlier part of the 20th century, and then again with the god damn minimalists, but by and large there hasn't been a ton of modal music, outside of (real, not Bob Dylan) folk traditions, since the Renaissance (which is not to say there's been none, just that there hasn't been a lot).

Hotspur actually had a good point in that there's some benefit to learning how Guitarists/Jazzists think of modes because some people do use those weird terminologies to communicate. Outside of that, I'm not sure I see the benefit. I will say that CST is everywhere, so if you go to school for jazz you'll probably learn it.

You need to understand that modes and keys are two different things. You can't effectively analyze keys with modes or vice versa (this may get some argument).


Lol... your screen name is "Jazz Rock Feel" and you said that. Keep using those Pentatonics!
#19
Quote by HamrockGuitar
Here's a fun exercise for you... pour yourself a nice glass of white zinfadel and cue up Clocks. Play the Eb Major scale with emphasis on the D natural. Really hit it and listen to how it sounds over that Bb minor and Db Major chords. No amount of academic study is going to make up for playing a wrong note, my friend. As far as your other question, I'll answer it with a question to you since you are a Music Theory Teacher... what are the notes in the C Major Scale? What are the notes in the C Ionian Mode?


haha, that's cute. so you're saying that because it doesn't have a D natural, it can't be in Eb major, and must be modal? if you're telling me you can't have a Db in the key of Eb, you don't even know what a key is, and you don't know what a mode is, either. and so you haven't given a satisfactory counterargument to my first question.

C major scale: C D E F G A B C
C ionian: C D E F G A B C

i expressly told you not to use the C major scale in your answer, unless you're going to tell me that a key and a scale are the same thing (which i highly advise against, because your arguments would then be completely invalid). so try again - we're talking about KEYS and modes, not scales and modes. again, you haven't given a satisfactory counterargument -- 0 for 2, my friend.

you may try again if you like, but be sure to use valid arguments. i don't like wasting my time.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#21
Understand nothing, in order to learn everything.

Quote by liampje
I can write a coherent tune ... But 3/4? I play rock, not polka.
#22
Quote by AeolianWolf
haha, that's cute. so you're saying that because it doesn't have a D natural, it can't be in Eb major, and must be modal? if you're telling me you can't have a Db in the key of Eb, you don't even know what a key is, and you don't know what a mode is, either. and so you haven't given a satisfactory counterargument to my first question.

C major scale: C D E F G A B C
C ionian: C D E F G A B C

i expressly told you not to use the C major scale in your answer, unless you're going to tell me that a key and a scale are the same thing (which i highly advise against, because your arguments would then be completely invalid). so try again - we're talking about KEYS and modes, not scales and modes. again, you haven't given a satisfactory counterargument -- 0 for 2, my friend.

you may try again if you like, but be sure to use valid arguments. i don't like wasting my time.



Wow... talk about wasting time, this is truly futile. It also shows the academic snobbery of schooled musicians who just regurgitate what they are taught in Music Class and think they know it all. Classical Music Theory classes typically teach very briefly about Church Modes in Early Music and state that they are hardly used in modern music. I know this because I was studying Classical Guitar, Baroque Lute, AND Composition in college, along with Jazz Improvisation, when you were about two years old. I've also been a gigging musician and Music Instructor for the last 20 years and have used Modes extensively in all styles of music. Before you are "aggressive with your words" you may want to check your references so you don't end up sounding foolish. Go recheck your homework, Junior, and hand it in tomorrow... you haven't passed the class yet.
#23
Nothing sets off an argument in MT quite like modes.

TS, before you get anywhere near learning modes you need to get a complete basis in tonal theory. Which means keys, chords, and intervals.

If you want to hear actual modal music then your best bet is to listen to Palestrina, some Monteverdi and other early baroque composers.


To HamrockGuitar^, its posts like this, that don't offer any advice or knowledge, and are simply combative, that do not help anybody and lead to more argument. Why can't we be friends?
Strauss!
"I am hitting my head against the walls, but the walls are giving way." - Gustav Mahler.

Quote by AeolianWolf
absolutely what will said

Yay, my first compliment!
Last edited by will42 at Nov 19, 2012,
#24
Quote by HamrockGuitar
Wow... talk about wasting time, this is truly futile. It also shows the academic snobbery of schooled musicians who just regurgitate what they are taught in Music Class and think they know it all. Classical Music Theory classes typically teach very briefly about Church Modes in Early Music and state that they are hardly used in modern music. I know this because I was studying Classical Guitar, Baroque Lute, AND Composition in college, along with Jazz Improvisation, when you were about two years old. I've also been a gigging musician and Music Instructor for the last 20 years and have used Modes extensively in all styles of music. Before you are "aggressive with your words" you may want to check your references so you don't end up sounding foolish. Go recheck your homework, Junior, and hand it in tomorrow... you haven't passed the class yet.


you studied baroque and jazz with nothing in between -- have fun calling some of mozart's lines "mixolydian".

all you do is say i'm a snob -- don't worry, i've heard it before from countless people who were unable to refute my arguments. i mean, name calling is all you can do when the things you know no longer suffice. but anyway, i'm not going to waste my time with an old dog who thinks he knows his shit so well that new tricks have become an impossibility for him. congratulations, old man -- your future is looking quite stale, even looking over a computer screen.

Quote by will42
To HamrockGuitar^, its posts like this, that don't offer any advice or knowledge, and are simply combative, that do not help anybody and lead to more argument. Why can't we be friends?


eh, cut him some slack. if i paid money to study music and came out with his understanding, i'd have a stick up my ass, too.

i just find it really funny that people resort to name-calling when it becomes blatantly obvious that they can't even win an argument, and they think it makes the other party look bad.

but really, all it does is shows the bystanders that the person doing the name-calling has nothing else to fall back on. people aren't stupid. they have the uncanny ability to add 2 and 2 and get 4.

at least, SOME people do.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
Last edited by AeolianWolf at Nov 20, 2012,
#25
Quote by rockingamer2
It's a good ballpark. Given the sheer amount of songs that are created and released these days, even saying that one out of a hundred are modal is too much.

What about music that's not in a key? Or music that is not descended from Western Classical Music or from Contemporary popular styles? Ever thought of that?
#26
Quote by GoldenGuitar
What about music that's not in a key? Or music that is not descended from Western Classical Music or from Contemporary popular styles? Ever thought of that?


atonality. if you want, you're welcome to submit an example of music that doesn't fit in a key but DOES fit in a mode...though i think you'll have quite a bit of trouble with that (assuming you actually understand the concept of a key).

and it doesn't need to be descended from any particular style or idiom - there are only two types of music: tonal and atonal. musics from some cultures may not have conventions that fit...neatly, shall we say, into our system, but tonality exists, and modality has all but expired. even modality utilizes functions of tonality (in that it has a tonal center), but the concept of a key has effectively replaced the concept of modality. it's difficult to listen even to old modal works and not hear them as being in a key, because of the way music has evolved. it's like listening to a gregorian chant and hearing harmony in your head - a thousand years ago, such a thing would have been unheard of. music, at that time, existed solely as melody.

it's very feasible to argue that musics from styles other than western music could not be analyzed as being in modes. but to argue the same for a key -- sure, one could argue that they do not fit neatly (and therefore cannot be analyzed as efficiently), but it's still absolutely possible.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#27
Quote by HamrockGuitar
Wow... talk about wasting time, this is truly futile. It also shows the academic snobbery of schooled musicians who just regurgitate what they are taught in Music Class and think they know it all. Classical Music Theory classes typically teach very briefly about Church Modes in Early Music and state that they are hardly used in modern music. I know this because I was studying Classical Guitar, Baroque Lute, AND Composition in college, along with Jazz Improvisation, when you were about two years old. I've also been a gigging musician and Music Instructor for the last 20 years and have used Modes extensively in all styles of music. Before you are "aggressive with your words" you may want to check your references so you don't end up sounding foolish. Go recheck your homework, Junior, and hand it in tomorrow... you haven't passed the class yet.

i'm going to dismiss everything you're saying simply based on your odd obsession with capitalizing things that aren't supposed to be capitalized - i don't quite understand how you can use the "i'm older than you and am therefore right" approach and write like this, since you should have been writing since i was nothing more than a naughty thought and a twinkle in my father's eye

now of course i'm not capitalizing anything, but that's because this discussion is simply not worth the extra wear on my shift key
#28
Quote by will42
Nothing sets off an argument in MT quite like modes.

TS, before you get anywhere near learning modes you need to get a complete basis in tonal theory. Which means keys, chords, and intervals.

If you want to hear actual modal music then your best bet is to listen to Palestrina, some Monteverdi and other early baroque composers.


To HamrockGuitar^, its posts like this, that don't offer any advice or knowledge, and are simply combative, that do not help anybody and lead to more argument. Why can't we be friends?


You Are Absolutely Right... These Threads Are Meant To Be Educational, not arguments. I apologize for stooping to a lower level. In rebuttal to the Clocks "argument" the tonic is Eb... the chords are Eb major, Bb minor, and F minor. In the key of Eb major the chords are Eb Fm Gm Ab Bb Cm Ddim. There is not a Bb minor chord in the key. In the key of Ab Major, the chords are Ab Bbm Cm Db Eb Fm Gdim. The Clocks chords fit into the key of Ab Major with Eb being the tonic. The Mode with the 5th scale degree as the tonic is the Mixolydian mode... or, if you prefer, the Eb Major scale with a b7th scale degree. C Ionian is the exact same scale AND key as C Major... if it has the same notes, key signature, and chords how is it different?

At Aeolian Wolf: I got a scholarship so I didn't pay for school, I've studied and played classical, jazz, blues, rock, flamenco, and even country, and I actually make a very good living working for myself teaching, producing, and recording music, which is very rare in this business. Wait until you get out into the real world, lad...
#29
Quote by GoldenGuitar
What about music that's not in a key? Or music that is not descended from Western Classical Music or from Contemporary popular styles? Ever thought of that?

For every atonal piece there are probably hundreds of guitar chords with voice songs written. Non-western music isn't included because it isn't relevant to the discussion. Hell, they probably don't even use anything like what we think of as modes.
^^The above is a Cryptic Metaphor^^


"To know the truth of history is to realize its ultimate myth and its inevitable ambiguity." Everything is made up and the facts don't matter.


MUSIC THEORY LINK
#30
Aren't modes now a days just used in a way to explain accidentals in tonal music? That's my understanding atleast it's not actually used in a modal way anymore
#31
Quote by Fourfourforever
Aren't modes now a days just used in a way to explain accidentals in tonal music? That's my understanding atleast it's not actually used in a modal way anymore


no. tonal music doesn't need modes to explain accidentals. that's exactly why modes are obsolete - tonal music covers accidentals.

Quote by HamrockGuitar
You Are Absolutely Right... These Threads Are Meant To Be Educational, not arguments. I apologize for stooping to a lower level. In rebuttal to the Clocks "argument" the tonic is Eb... the chords are Eb major, Bb minor, and F minor. In the key of Eb major the chords are Eb Fm Gm Ab Bb Cm Ddim. There is not a Bb minor chord in the key. In the key of Ab Major, the chords are Ab Bbm Cm Db Eb Fm Gdim. The Clocks chords fit into the key of Ab Major with Eb being the tonic. The Mode with the 5th scale degree as the tonic is the Mixolydian mode... or, if you prefer, the Eb Major scale with a b7th scale degree. C Ionian is the exact same scale AND key as C Major... if it has the same notes, key signature, and chords how is it different?


if you can't see the difference between C ionian and C major, then i'm very skeptical as to how much training you've really had. if it was a lot, it was probably with teachers who misunderstood the concept themselves. and don't tell me there aren't -- because there are. and, oh, are there.

Quote by HamrockGuitar
At Aeolian Wolf: I got a scholarship so I didn't pay for school, I've studied and played classical, jazz, blues, rock, flamenco, and even country, and I actually make a very good living working for myself teaching, producing, and recording music, which is very rare in this business. Wait until you get out into the real world, lad...


i believe you - you definitely have the undeserved ego of a guitarist who does those things. dead giveaway. and i'm already in the real world - don't belittle me because you can't understand a simple concept and someone a third of your age has already gotten a handle on it. i've been proving old dogs wrong for years, and i'm not about to stop now.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#32
Quote by AeolianWolf
if you want, you're welcome to submit an example of music that doesn't fit in a key but DOES fit in a mode...though i think you'll have quite a bit of trouble with that (assuming you actually understand the concept of a key).

I understand the concept Key fine. The reason people can't refute your argument is because there is absolutely nothing wrong with it to begin with. Just because you can use the concept of tonality to explain a piece as long as it's not atonal does not mean that a piece cannot be modal. With keys and tonality, even in extremes cases where a piece is borderline atonal, you can still form chords and call everything else embellishing tones. Look at Berg's Sonate from Op.1, it's in the Key of B minor but you can barely hear it and there are enough embellishing tones to even make that ambiguous. (Granted although there are lots augmented 6th chords, and modulations) But just because nearly everything can be explained using Keys, DOES NOT mean modes are redundant. If they were, people wouldn't be using the concept. Ever heard of Messiaen?
I'm seriously considering whether you understand why modes are called modes? If you did you wouldn't need to say all this crap that isn't actually wrong.

Quote by AeolianWolf

and it doesn't need to be descended from any particular style or idiom - there are only two types of music: tonal and atonal.

If you truly think that, you've got a very narrow minded view of what music is.
#33
Quote by GoldenGuitar
I understand the concept Key fine. The reason people can't refute your argument is because there is absolutely nothing wrong with it to begin with. Just because you can use the concept of tonality to explain a piece as long as it's not atonal does not mean that a piece cannot be modal. With keys and tonality, even in extremes cases where a piece is borderline atonal, you can still form chords and call everything else embellishing tones. Look at Berg's Sonate from Op.1, it's in the Key of B minor but you can barely hear it and there are enough embellishing tones to even make that ambiguous. (Granted although there are lots augmented 6th chords, and modulations) But just because nearly everything can be explained using Keys, DOES NOT mean modes are redundant. If they were, people wouldn't be using the concept. Ever heard of Messiaen?
I'm seriously considering whether you understand why modes are called modes? If you did you wouldn't need to say all this crap that isn't actually wrong.


then show me an example of why modes have any use -- one that cannot be explained as being in a key.

Quote by GoldenGuitar
If you truly think that, you've got a very narrow minded view of what music is.


again, put the **** up, or shut the **** up. you're a pretty funny guy if you expect me to take anything you say seriously if all you're going to do is put forth concepts and theories.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#34
hey guys let's compare sausage and italian sausage
Quote by theogonia777
Hail killed MT

Quote by jongtr
I want to be Hail when I grow up.
#36
just actually read through this and thought it'd be worth giving my honest opinion on a very controversial subject

Quote by AeolianWolf
the person doing the name-calling has nothing else to fall back on.


i call people names even if i'm agreeing with them and respect them greatly

you poo-head
Quote by theogonia777
Hail killed MT

Quote by jongtr
I want to be Hail when I grow up.
#37
I love a good old fashioned condescending-off.
But boys will be boys and girls have those eyes
that'll cut you to ribbons, sometimes
and all you can do is just wait by the moon
and bleed if it's what she says you ought to do
#39
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bifmj1O3D24

This thread only get's better. I congratulate Hamrock's persistence, although Aeolian's agility is something to be admired. Some beautiful manoeuvres from both combatants, if I had to I'd put my money on the wolf, but the more experienced one may yet surprise us.
to both of you.

edit: to get back on topic- I don't like it, I only like the taste of mint with sweets (ice cream, chocolate etc), don't like it with meat/potatoes.
But boys will be boys and girls have those eyes
that'll cut you to ribbons, sometimes
and all you can do is just wait by the moon
and bleed if it's what she says you ought to do
Last edited by Hydra150 at Nov 20, 2012,
#40
what about coffee and chocolate? or even better, chiles and chocolate? they almost make me willing to eat sweets. and i made some dark chocolate with chipotle in it for a girl on valentine's one year and i got so laid so it has to be good
Quote by theogonia777
Hail killed MT

Quote by jongtr
I want to be Hail when I grow up.
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