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#1
With Am in the root?

I know It could be

A Aeolion

A Phrygian

A Dorian

A minor Pentatonic

A Harmonic Minor

A Melodic Minor


Another Quick Question.

Back when I was taking lessons my guitar teacher told me to play A Dorian over an Am chord if the chord is on the E String

And A Minor if the chord/or root is on the A string

Now to my ears and my brain I enjoy the opposite

I like A minor rooted on E string to be A Aeolian as my scale of choice and it makes

since to my brain because Am is the relative minor of C Major and I can see the C Major Shape right on the C Major when going up from Aeolian


Any thoughts about all this? I'm trying to make sense of all this knowledge the best I can in the "useful" way.

Thanks

-John
#2
The string shouldn't matter. That's the guitar dictating the music. It doesn't work that way.
#3
It all depends on context. For example, if you're playing over a vamp that's going back and forth between A-7 and D7, you generally want to play A Dorian. However, if the vamp is going between A-7 and Bbmaj7, you'll want to use A Phrygian. You have to think about key or mode relationships or else you'll just be playing random notes from random scales.

Sorry, but your teacher sounds awful. The string you're playing the root on has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with any scales it's related to. The only thing that matters is musical context.
#5
Quote by z4twenny
* facepalm *

Jesus Christ why the hell are you even mentioning modes?!

...because they're a totally legitimate context to explain what I'm saying?

You know, contrary to what seems to be popular belief on here, modes and modal music actually do exist.
#6
All scales are possible, no guarantee on how good it will sound though. Seems to me you should focus more on playing a good melody over that chord rather than letting a certain scale dictate what notes to play though IMO.
I'm an
Engeneer
Enginear
Enginere

I'm Good at Math
#7
Hmm I get what your saying. I like the modes because I can see the extension of whatever scale I'm playing all over the fretboard. Really though, What I am trying to do is be a great improv guitarist and modes, licks, and intervals aren't seeming to cut it.

Basing my improvisations off of intervals and modes I just sound like I am playing scales. Learning licks definantly help for making the improvisation sound musical but I can't improv all licks that I have already practiced and made ready for the big solo


I use the modes to keep track of where I am on the fretboard but they sure aren''t very musical and I am always trying to figure out which mode/ or scale to play over this key to make it sound more musical
#8
Quote by mattrusso
contrary to what seems to be popular belief on here, modes and modal music actually do exist.


+1
"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils. The motions of his spirit are dull as night, and his affections dark as Erebus. Let no such man be trusted."
#9
Quote by Nervouspace
Hmm I get what your saying. I like the modes because I can see the extension of whatever scale I'm playing all over the fretboard. Really though, What I am trying to do is be a great improv guitarist and modes, licks, and intervals aren't seeming to cut it.

Basing my improvisations off of intervals and modes I just sound like I am playing scales. Learning licks definantly help for making the improvisation sound musical but I can't improv all licks that I have already practiced and made ready for the big solo


I use the modes to keep track of where I am on the fretboard but they sure aren''t very musical and I am always trying to figure out which mode/ or scale to play over this key to make it sound more musical

Modes are NOT extensions of their relative major or minor scales! "Modes" refer to a compositional approach that is totally distinct and separate from major and minor keys. In a modal (as opposed to tonal) environment, the harmony is controlled by the available notes as they relate to the tonal center. Instead of tonic, subdominant, and dominant, the only harmonic functions are tonic and cadence.

It sounds like you're not using "modes" but simply different positions of the major and minor scales on the fretboard. This is not the same thing. It seems like mentioning modes did in fact confuse you.

What do you mean "modes, licks, and intervals aren't seeming to cut it."? What else do you think is out there? There are 12 notes in western music and only so many ways to organize them. It's on you to practice and train your ear; then you'll be able to play what you want to hear.
#10
Quote by mattrusso
...because they're a totally legitimate context to explain what I'm saying?


They have nothing to do with the question on hand and are NOT a legitimate way of explaining this.
Last edited by z4twenny at Nov 27, 2012,
#11
To answer your question, all the notes will work over and Am chord; play an Am chord, an play an A, then Bb, then B, etc. See what each sounds like. Attach an emotional tag. Then bust a nut.
#12
I am using different positions of the major/minor scales on the fretboard.

I know if I play A Dorian it's just the second shape of G major and so forth.

How am I not using them correctly?


How do you get to the point that the "good" notes are preorganized so when you do a

100% genuine improvisation you will know which notes (together) are seperated from the more mediocre crumby sounding group of notes?

It's almost like practicing scales made a disaster out of everything because there are so many notes in there (that go together says the scales) during an improv that really don't sound melodic at all. And with all these scale shapes all over the fretboard there are ALOT of notes to be sorting through during an on the spot improvisation
Last edited by Nervouspace at Nov 27, 2012,
#15
Quote by Nervouspace
I am using different positions of the major/minor scales on the fretboard.

I know if I play A Dorian it's just the second shape of G major and so forth.

How am I not using them correctly?


How do you get to the point that the "good" notes are preorganized so when you do a

100% genuine improvisation you will know which notes (together) are seperated from the more mediocre crumby sounding group of notes?

It's almost like practicing scales made a disaster out of everything because there are so many notes in there during an improv that really don't sound melodic at all. And with all these scale shapes all over the fretboard there are ALOT of notes to be sorting through during an on the spot improvisation


Dude,
1. learn all the notes on the fretboard.
2. learn all your major and minor keys.
3. Learn/Sing solfege
4. ???
5. Profit!
#16
Quote by Nervouspace
I am using different positions of the major/minor scales on the fretboard.

I know if I play A Dorian it's just the second shape of G major and so forth.

How am I not using them correctly?

The thing is, that's not A Dorian. It's still just G major.

If you're in the key of G major, you will NEVER be able to play A Dorian, even if you go straight up and down the scale, because the harmony doesn't allow it.

The only time it will be (and sound like) A Dorian will be in a modal setting. For example, if you played Coltrane's Impressions in A instead of D, you would be playing A Dorian.

If you're still confused, read up on this stuff. It's actually very simple once you get a handle on it.
#17
Quote by Nervouspace
^ I'm not bad at theory I'm just having trouble organizing the information


You come in asking for theory advice but t hen say you don't need theory advice?
#18
Quote by Nervouspace
^ I'm not bad at theory I'm just having trouble organizing the information

You organize the information by arranging it in pieces... like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRIarJUQbVE
#19
I learned modes as shapes on the fretboard too, but I soon learned that I wasn't playing modes at all. The modes have just been co-opted to be an organizational tool, which unfortunately has lead to a lot of confusion as to what modes actually are.

Where the roof of the chord is doesn't matter. And stop saying Aeolian. It's now the natural minor scale. Same goes with the Ionian mode, it's now the major scale.
^^The above is a Cryptic Metaphor^^


"To know the truth of history is to realize its ultimate myth and its inevitable ambiguity." Everything is made up and the facts don't matter.


MUSIC THEORY LINK
#20
Exactly. Modes are in fact, irrelevant at this present time and age, and has been out of mainstream since ****ing ages ago.
#21
^I never said I didn't need advice.

Ok, I will take the root note out of this. What I meant was If I play G Major and I go to Dorian "I guess I just called it A Dorian because That's where I start when I practice the shape" but I know its just extending off of G Major.

And Yea I probably am not using the modes right. I am not saying I get any notes that obviously sound out of key. I know all my major and minor keys. I am just trying to say it sounds like I'm playing one long ass G Major scale when I improv in G Major.

So I MUST be using the modes wrong. All I know is. I'm in G Major. I got my Major shape, Dorian Shape, Phrygian/Lydian Shape, Mixolydian Shape, and Aeolian Shape. and if I connect them all I got one long G Major scale going all the way up the fretboard.
#22
All 12 notes can be used over an a minor and sound good.

stop thinking in scales.

/thread
#23
Quote by Nervouspace
^I never said I didn't need advice.

Ok, I will take the root note out of this. What I meant was If I play G Major and I go to Dorian "I guess I just called it A Dorian because That's where I start when I practice the shape" but I know its just extending off of G Major.

And Yea I probably am not using the modes right. I am not saying I get any notes that obviously sound out of key. I know all my major and minor keys. I am just trying to say it sounds like I'm playing one long ass G Major scale when I improv in G Major.

So I MUST be using the modes wrong. All I know is. I'm in G Major. I got my Major shape, Dorian Shape, Phrygian/Lydian Shape, Mixolydian Shape, and Aeolian Shape. and if I connect them all I got one long G Major scale going all the way up the fretboard.


You're in G major the whole time. What you should have done is learn the notes in the fretboard, and then the notes in the key of G. Stop thinking in shapes and cut this modes shit, because the instant you mention major your are not modal.
#24
suggestion...learn how to play melodies within the scale...simple melodic phrases..london bridge..jingle bells..etc..

find 112 melodic patterns on the net..that should keep you busy for a few months...play them in ALL keys...

listen to melodic players...larry carlton...lee ritenour..see how they use scales and intervals in melodic ways..also...pay attention to space..it makes the use of notes more effective..simple 4 and 5 note passages seperated by half note rests may sound very tasty rather then running 8 or ten notes together with a sudden end...

also...learn how to play through chords..and their inversions...learn all the arpeggios of a chord in all its inversions..on all string sets..play a melodic phrase using just the notes of a chord..then string several chords together..A7 D7 Gmi7 Bb13 CMA7#11...when you beging to get a feel for this type of stuff..try it in as many keys as possible in every position and inversion..

this type of stuff will kmotivatedotavated to stretch your ears...your post sound like your looking for new directions

play well

wolf
Last edited by wolflen at Nov 27, 2012,
#25
But boys will be boys and girls have those eyes
that'll cut you to ribbons, sometimes
and all you can do is just wait by the moon
and bleed if it's what she says you ought to do
#28
All Right, I am going to do what Wolf said. I am going to make one last attempt at this real quick though. I read up on some things.

What I am concluding is. Major, Dorian, Phrygian/Lydian, Mixolydian, and Minor are not really shapes like I've been thinking.

I could be playing G Major with my root note starting with the G on the A string the run the scale and get what I was thinking was the "mixolydian shape" but since Mixolydian isn't a shape but a tonality, It's just G Major again somewhere else on the fretboard and that is all. Nothing modal about it.

BUT If I play G Mixolydian now I am playing modally? and every other shape I get around the G Mixolydian is not a different "mode" It's just a shape of G Mixolydian somewhere else on the fretboard


Do I understand it now?
#29
Nope, because you are still thinking in shapes. No matter what you try, if you play a Gmaj chord and then solo over it you will, no matter whatever the hell you try, be in G major. You can play whatever, and you can call it all the names under the sun, but it
is still
g
major
#30
You're starting to get it.

However, I would stop thinking of G A B C D E F as G mixolydian anyway. Just playing these notes doesn't make it modal. I mean, if you used these notes with a G major vamp or a G pedal tone, then you could call it modal, but I still wouldn't even bother because there's really not much application for modes in modern music.

You will benefit much more from thinking in terms of keys and intervals. You can simplify things so much by just thinking in G major, and calling the F an accidental.

Of course, you're going to want to study tonal harmony, including tension/chord function. But if you focus on that, and ignore modes, I think you'll have a much better understanding of music theory.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
Last edited by food1010 at Nov 27, 2012,
#31
Asking about modes on here is like a death sentence because people are going to always nitpick your semantics. I made the same mistake you did by asking about "Modal Pentatonics" on here a long time ago. I wanted to know some cool way to play something in a mixolydian settting while I played Em or Dm or something. I got completely trashed by everyone on here for the first two pages of my thread so I left.
About a week later I got back on and saw that my thread was still alive, and people were still arguing about it. Not to say that the people on here are douchebags, but they are incredibly thorough and they are approaching your questions from a theory perspective while you are approaching it from a I want the basics so I can learn a unique way to write a song or a unique way to solo point of view. One thing I can guarantee you is that if you do not have a solid foundation of musical theory (I don't), then you aren't going to get what you wanted from this thread.
You'll notice they have a topic stickied in here that says "Modes! Before You Ask..." They really mean it. And I don't mean any disrespect to you or any of the people here, but I feel like this thread is following pretty closely to what mine did.
Last edited by Chandleezy at Nov 27, 2012,
#32
Quote by Nervouspace
All Right, I am going to do what Wolf said. I am going to make one last attempt at this real quick though. I read up on some things.

What I am concluding is. Major, Dorian, Phrygian/Lydian, Mixolydian, and Minor are not really shapes like I've been thinking.

I could be playing G Major with my root note starting with the G on the A string the run the scale and get what I was thinking was the "mixolydian shape" but since Mixolydian isn't a shape but a tonality, It's just G Major again somewhere else on the fretboard and that is all. Nothing modal about it.

BUT If I play G Mixolydian now I am playing modally? and every other shape I get around the G Mixolydian is not a different "mode" It's just a shape of G Mixolydian somewhere else on the fretboard


Do I understand it now?

Why do you want to play modally?
#33
i typically go over a minor with a chloroform'd rag i've stashed in my pocket, then just hitman them into the trunk of my car

btw every mt thread should have at least one cooking tutorial
Quote by theogonia777
Hail killed MT

Quote by jongtr
I want to be Hail when I grow up.
#35
Quote by Nervouspace
For Variation in a solo I suppose?


hahahaha you've watched one too many satch videos, friend

you don't just "start" playing modally. you're misunderstanding playing with accidentals, which ultimately actually limits you to those 7 sets of accidentals and overcomplicates things beyond knowing the functions of each interval, motion, and phrasing and using them appropriately within the context of a piece

also, it's important to note that music isn't only about soloing. you should be able to think and write harmonically and rhythmically, and see the "big picture" at the very least as well as you can improvise/play fast/solo. what's the point of talking fast if it's just gibberish and thrown together off of scale shapes you found tabs of somewhere?
Quote by theogonia777
Hail killed MT

Quote by jongtr
I want to be Hail when I grow up.
#36
Quote by Hail

btw every mt thread should have at least one cooking tutorial

Well, only the ones that turn into a MT regs modal circlejerk

so yea, all of them
But boys will be boys and girls have those eyes
that'll cut you to ribbons, sometimes
and all you can do is just wait by the moon
and bleed if it's what she says you ought to do
#37
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJ0H0pP57ZQ

my dad's looking to build another smoker (he is/was a welder professionally until recently and we sold our old one) so he can smoke exotic, huge hunks of meat. i'm excited. but i do like this "faux-smoke" method
Quote by theogonia777
Hail killed MT

Quote by jongtr
I want to be Hail when I grow up.
Last edited by Hail at Nov 27, 2012,
#38
good god i want to eat that youtube video
But boys will be boys and girls have those eyes
that'll cut you to ribbons, sometimes
and all you can do is just wait by the moon
and bleed if it's what she says you ought to do
#39
Quote by Chandleezy
Asking about modes on here is like a death sentence because people are going to always nitpick your semantics. I made the same mistake you did by asking about "Modal Pentatonics" on here a long time ago. I wanted to know some cool way to play something in a mixolydian settting while I played Em or Dm or something. I got completely trashed by everyone on here for the first two pages of my thread so I left.
About a week later I got back on and saw that my thread was still alive, and people were still arguing about it. Not to say that the people on here are douchebags, but they are incredibly thorough and they are approaching your questions from a theory perspective while you are approaching it from a I want the basics so I can learn a unique way to write a song or a unique way to solo point of view. One thing I can guarantee you is that if you do not have a solid foundation of musical theory (I don't), then you aren't going to get what you wanted from this thread.
You'll notice they have a topic stickied in here that says "Modes! Before You Ask..." They really mean it. And I don't mean any disrespect to you or any of the people here, but I feel like this thread is following pretty closely to what mine did.

Those who ask about modes usually don't have a good foundation of music theory knowledge, so we end up tearing down their understanding and then try to start them over again. But by virtue of being a public forum, you get a lot of cooks in the kitchen. They're good cooks and mean well, but it can be overwhelming for a person to absorb all at once. It's just another hazard of being self taught: you have to wade through a lot of crap and find the good stuff, which can be shown different forms, which makes it more confusing.
^^The above is a Cryptic Metaphor^^


"To know the truth of history is to realize its ultimate myth and its inevitable ambiguity." Everything is made up and the facts don't matter.


MUSIC THEORY LINK
#40
Quote by Nervouspace
For Variation in a solo I suppose?

Variation? Ok, so what you need is some variation in your decoration... your ganache... your accidentals... your phrasing... your phrasing... your phrasing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kx7mhx_VvWM
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